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RE: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Rules to Protect Net Ne... - 11/16/2014 11:10:59 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Do you even understand what common carrier status means? The phone companies have that status today and have had it for decades and it is legally based on such things as public roads. How has the US government abused that status? In detail with examples please. Not paranoia but concrete examples.


What makes you think you name the terms of any given debate.

There have been all kinds of issues with government meddling in the common carriers arena

Youve never heard of cronyism...





_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Rules to Protect Net Ne... - 11/16/2014 1:34:33 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Do you even understand what common carrier status means? The phone companies have that status today and have had it for decades and it is legally based on such things as public roads. How has the US government abused that status? In detail with examples please. Not paranoia but concrete examples.

What makes you think you name the terms of any given debate.

There have been all kinds of issues with government meddling in the common carriers arena

Youve never heard of cronyism...




Yes, you are of the belief that America should NOT be run "...Of the People, By the People, For the People...". Something that came from a great Republican.

How...'American'....of you....

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Rules to Protect Net Ne... - 11/16/2014 4:06:58 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Do you even understand what common carrier status means? The phone companies have that status today and have had it for decades and it is legally based on such things as public roads. How has the US government abused that status? In detail with examples please. Not paranoia but concrete examples.


What makes you think you name the terms of any given debate.

There have been all kinds of issues with government meddling in the common carriers arena

Youve never heard of cronyism...





OK, that was funny. Good one!


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Rules to Protect Net Ne... - 11/16/2014 6:07:45 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Do you even understand what common carrier status means? The phone companies have that status today and have had it for decades and it is legally based on such things as public roads. How has the US government abused that status? In detail with examples please. Not paranoia but concrete examples.


Apparently, it hasn't been useful yet. I don't put it past the GOP or the Democrats to do almost anything to grow or keep government power.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Rules to Protect Net Ne... - 11/16/2014 7:36:10 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Do you even understand what common carrier status means? The phone companies have that status today and have had it for decades and it is legally based on such things as public roads. How has the US government abused that status? In detail with examples please. Not paranoia but concrete examples.


Apparently, it hasn't been useful yet. I don't put it past the GOP or the Democrats to do almost anything to grow or keep government power.


Common carrier says that no traffic can be given priority over any other traffic. Now how could that possibly be abused?

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Rules to Protect Net Ne... - 11/17/2014 2:34:03 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Do you even understand what common carrier status means? The phone companies have that status today and have had it for decades and it is legally based on such things as public roads. How has the US government abused that status? In detail with examples please. Not paranoia but concrete examples.

Apparently, it hasn't been useful yet. I don't put it past the GOP or the Democrats to do almost anything to grow or keep government power.

Common carrier says that no traffic can be given priority over any other traffic. Now how could that possibly be abused?


Someone will find a way.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Rules to Protect Net Ne... - 11/17/2014 3:00:53 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Do you even understand what common carrier status means? The phone companies have that status today and have had it for decades and it is legally based on such things as public roads. How has the US government abused that status? In detail with examples please. Not paranoia but concrete examples.

Apparently, it hasn't been useful yet. I don't put it past the GOP or the Democrats to do almost anything to grow or keep government power.

Common carrier says that no traffic can be given priority over any other traffic. Now how could that possibly be abused?


Someone will find a way.


Paranoia is not an example. Have they done so with roads or the phones?

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Rules to Protect Net Ne... - 11/17/2014 3:20:46 PM   
Edwynn


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Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline
Of course a way might be found.

But are you saying that this would be (if it occurred) solely at instigation of the government, all on their own? not a hint or plea from the commercial interests involved? the million dollar lobbyist completely silent?

You claim to want 'limited government,' but aside from the fact that asking for limited government from the currently most powerful nation in the world is like a three year old telling her parents to leave her alone and go away, but still expecting breakfast served the next morning ...

The best way to limit government, if you are interested in that, is to limit the size of the mega-conglomerates.

We have had proof-positive over the last 30 years that increase in size of the corporation equates directly to decrease in effective democracy. Not to mention decrease in effectiveness of what government we are still paying for.

If you want 'less government' in a less socially destructive way than the mega-conglomerates have succeeded in doing thus far, then the thing to do is to write to the FTC, FDA, FCC, SEC, etc., and tell them that we would appreciate it if they would be something else other than being a farm system for the corporations and their lawyers and lobbyists.

Then maybe we wouldn't have a Goldman Sachs guy at the treasury giving our money away or a Monsonto guy at the FDA
trying to outlaw organic produce.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/17/2014 3:55:14 PM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Rules to Protect Net Ne... - 11/17/2014 4:37:02 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Apparently, you trust the US Government. I do too. But, I trust they will abuse any and every power we give it (which is why I want it's power and authority to be limited).

Heh, I do not trust the US government. In this particular case, though, I'm utterly certain what happens without net neutrality and I'm utterly certain that it will result in a whole host of negatives. Given the particular lever being discussed here, even if I in my worst nightmares cannot imagine what the US Govt would do with it that's worse than what the capitalists would do with it. So in my mind it's a wash in the worst case and has a ton of upside potential in less worse cases.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Rules to Protect Net Ne... - 11/17/2014 5:54:20 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Paranoia is not an example. Have they done so with roads or the phones?


Surely not. There's no way the Federal Government would do anything with roads to exert their power and influence. I'm sure every state in the Union decided to raise the drinking age to 21, and make not wearing a seat belt illegal all on their own.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Rules to Protect Net Ne... - 11/17/2014 5:56:03 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
Of course a way might be found.
But are you saying that this would be (if it occurred) solely at instigation of the government, all on their own? not a hint or plea from the commercial interests involved? the million dollar lobbyist completely silent?
You claim to want 'limited government,' but aside from the fact that asking for limited government from the currently most powerful nation in the world is like a three year old telling her parents to leave her alone and go away, but still expecting breakfast served the next morning ...
The best way to limit government, if you are interested in that, is to limit the size of the mega-conglomerates.
We have had proof-positive over the last 30 years that increase in size of the corporation equates directly to decrease in effective democracy. Not to mention decrease in effectiveness of what government we are still paying for.
If you want 'less government' in a less socially destructive way than the mega-conglomerates have succeeded in doing thus far, then the thing to do is to write to the FTC, FDA, FCC, SEC, etc., and tell them that we would appreciate it if they would be something else other than being a farm system for the corporations and their lawyers and lobbyists.
Then maybe we wouldn't have a Goldman Sachs guy at the treasury giving our money away or a Monsonto guy at the FDA
trying to outlaw organic produce.


Yeah, "limited government" doesn't mean conglomerates would overtake society. Nice strawman, though.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Rules to Protect Net Ne... - 11/17/2014 5:57:53 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Apparently, you trust the US Government. I do too. But, I trust they will abuse any and every power we give it (which is why I want it's power and authority to be limited).

Heh, I do not trust the US government. In this particular case, though, I'm utterly certain what happens without net neutrality and I'm utterly certain that it will result in a whole host of negatives. Given the particular lever being discussed here, even if I in my worst nightmares cannot imagine what the US Govt would do with it that's worse than what the capitalists would do with it. So in my mind it's a wash in the worst case and has a ton of upside potential in less worse cases.


How would the Feds know if you're in compliance? They'd probably have to do some monitoring. What part of the US Government is best suited to monitor for compliance?

ETA: The worst thing is, I'm not for or against net neutrality, yet. I haven't made my mind up about it. I see the problems outlined on here that it would solve, but, like you, I also see the potential for governmental abuse. I don't know which way I'm going to go. I'm leaning away from government, but that's pretty much my starting point for nearly everything.


< Message edited by DesideriScuri -- 11/17/2014 6:00:42 PM >

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Rules to Protect Net Ne... - 11/17/2014 6:21:31 PM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Yeah, "limited government" doesn't mean conglomerates would overtake society. Nice strawman, though.


To the extent that you might refer to reality as 'strawman.'

But it's already happened, before you were born, scream-head radio notwithstanding ...

Thanks for not reading the news or any history books.


When Exxon and Mobile are allowed to merge (the two largest oil companies at the time), their lobbying influence is now greater, (which previous influence allowed such merging in the first place, but now greater influence), and when Travelers Insurance and Citibank and three other firms are allowed to merge as a "fuck you" slap in the face to the FTC and the FED and the SEC and the FSLIC and to OCC and the well-reasoned Glass-Stegal Act and a few other government agencies and laws, all the government did was to have their (the corporation's, not our) congress rubber stamp the whole thing.

We see where that got us.

Don't confuse your strawheaded thinking with your conveniently imagined strawman of someone else.

If you don't know who runs the country (it's sure as fuck not the government), then you are lost, and why are you commenting?








< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/17/2014 7:19:04 PM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Rules to Protect Net Ne... - 11/17/2014 10:09:42 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Paranoia is not an example. Have they done so with roads or the phones?


Surely not. There's no way the Federal Government would do anything with roads to exert their power and influence. I'm sure every state in the Union decided to raise the drinking age to 21, and make not wearing a seat belt illegal all on their own.




That has absolutely nothing to do with the roads common carrier status.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Rules to Protect Net Ne... - 11/17/2014 10:10:48 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
Of course a way might be found.
But are you saying that this would be (if it occurred) solely at instigation of the government, all on their own? not a hint or plea from the commercial interests involved? the million dollar lobbyist completely silent?
You claim to want 'limited government,' but aside from the fact that asking for limited government from the currently most powerful nation in the world is like a three year old telling her parents to leave her alone and go away, but still expecting breakfast served the next morning ...
The best way to limit government, if you are interested in that, is to limit the size of the mega-conglomerates.
We have had proof-positive over the last 30 years that increase in size of the corporation equates directly to decrease in effective democracy. Not to mention decrease in effectiveness of what government we are still paying for.
If you want 'less government' in a less socially destructive way than the mega-conglomerates have succeeded in doing thus far, then the thing to do is to write to the FTC, FDA, FCC, SEC, etc., and tell them that we would appreciate it if they would be something else other than being a farm system for the corporations and their lawyers and lobbyists.
Then maybe we wouldn't have a Goldman Sachs guy at the treasury giving our money away or a Monsonto guy at the FDA
trying to outlaw organic produce.


Yeah, "limited government" doesn't mean conglomerates would overtake society. Nice strawman, though.


Yes, it does actually. don't you know history at all?

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Rules to Protect Net Ne... - 11/18/2014 8:43:58 AM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline
Among other things, it's how the banks became "too big to fail" in the first place, and how they had their guys in the right spots at government agencies when the storm hit. The home owners, OTOH, didn't have "their guy" in place, but we did have the mega-conglomerate media to tell us it was all their fault.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Rules to Protect Net Ne... - 11/18/2014 12:02:44 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Do you even understand what common carrier status means? The phone companies have that status today and have had it for decades and it is legally based on such things as public roads. How has the US government abused that status? In detail with examples please. Not paranoia but concrete examples.


Apparently, it hasn't been useful yet. I don't put it past the GOP or the Democrats to do almost anything to grow or keep government power.


Common carrier says that no traffic can be given priority over any other traffic. Now how could that possibly be abused?

its like anything the f'n US govt does.. there will be exceptions and loop-holes that you could drive a truck thru.. when have they done anything that didn't have those? take the IRS and taxes.. you expect the tax rate to be the tax rate, right? except that big corps can apply to the IRS and negotiate their tax rate (called "advance pricing agreements") and pay half what the rest of American businesses pay..

http://fortune.com/2013/07/22/the-tax-break-that-corporate-america-wants-kept-secret/

_____________________________

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(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Rules to Protect Net Ne... - 11/18/2014 2:38:56 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Do you even understand what common carrier status means? The phone companies have that status today and have had it for decades and it is legally based on such things as public roads. How has the US government abused that status? In detail with examples please. Not paranoia but concrete examples.


Apparently, it hasn't been useful yet. I don't put it past the GOP or the Democrats to do almost anything to grow or keep government power.


Common carrier says that no traffic can be given priority over any other traffic. Now how could that possibly be abused?

its like anything the f'n US govt does.. there will be exceptions and loop-holes that you could drive a truck thru.. when have they done anything that didn't have those? take the IRS and taxes.. you expect the tax rate to be the tax rate, right? except that big corps can apply to the IRS and negotiate their tax rate (called "advance pricing agreements") and pay half what the rest of American businesses pay..

http://fortune.com/2013/07/22/the-tax-break-that-corporate-america-wants-kept-secret/

Common carrier rules have never been subject to any such treatment. EVER.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Rules to Protect Net Ne... - 11/19/2014 2:58:50 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
If you don't know who runs the country (it's sure as fuck not the government), then you are lost, and why are you commenting?


Who says I don't know Big Money has bough Big Government?

The Congressional Report on the Great Recession fingered the Federal Reserve for not catching it and stopping it. Imagine that. An agency that is supposed to prevent that stuff, didn't.

The SEC has been fingered as not catching it, too. Why? Was it because there wasn't regulation in place to stop it? Nope. They were too busy looking up porn to do their jobs.

Increasing government power and influence means it's even more lucrative for Big Money to buy Big Government.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Rules to Protect Net Ne... - 11/19/2014 7:02:16 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:


The Congressional Report on the Great Recession fingered the Federal Reserve for not catching it and stopping it. Imagine that. An agency that is supposed to prevent that stuff, didn't.

The SEC has been fingered as not catching it, too. Why? Was it because there wasn't regulation in place to stop it? Nope. They were too busy looking up porn to do their jobs.


Actually the entire republican administration with their free market communism did it. Hapless Hooverisms was the tonic. It turned out to be piss water.

The regulations were not in place because of the republican administrations free market communism. You know, we need to reduce regulation, cuz these guys have our nations and our citizens best interests at heart.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 80
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