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are you submissive because of abuse? - 7/12/2006 8:34:55 PM   
wildlyincomplete


Posts: 5
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline 		I was reading through the BBW topic and sexual abuse was mentioned a couple times.  I am curious to know other's opinions on individuals being submissive because of some kind of abuse rather than being born submissive or choosing to behave in a submissive manor.
Thanks
~beth/wildly_incomplete~
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RE: are you submissive because of abuse? - 7/12/2006 8:42:58 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Easy answer for me, I was never abused as a child ever, and I always had submissive qualities to those I love and respect, such as my parents and special teachers.

I do think that my first marriage became abusive because I am a naturally submissive person perhaps, because vanilla men do not understand what a submissive is, and that a submissive is not a doormat, just loves differently... and since I am not a doormat that marriage wasn't a long one.



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to wildlyincomplete)
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RE: are you submissive because of abuse? - 7/12/2006 8:44:17 PM   
michaelGA2


Posts: 1533
Joined: 4/26/2006
Status: offline 		i would have to say that, as a formerly physically abused child, i believe it lead to my submission and impending brattiness as i was partially responsible for bringing it on myself. no sexual abuse was involved.

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RE: are you submissive because of abuse? - 7/12/2006 8:46:49 PM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		I don't know about others, but I was never abused as a child.

(in reply to wildlyincomplete)
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RE: are you submissive because of abuse? - 7/12/2006 9:02:39 PM   
Mavis


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		About the same percentage of submissives were abused children as in anyplace. i suspect if you could poll your workplace, all librarians, people born under the sign of say..   Capricorn..  we'd find the percentage is fairly consistant.

it's like asking if you're a Dominant because Brown eyes have a darker look about them..

(in reply to bandit25)
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RE: are you submissive because of abuse? - 7/12/2006 9:03:21 PM   
LiliesDoGrow


Posts: 106
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline 		You raise an interesting point Julia.

I've often wondered if people with submissive personalities tend to incite abuse in others because of their sensitive natures?

Maybe this phenom of the abused submissive derives from people with giving personalities being knocked about by insensitive brutes.

It's not about being a doormat, it's about giving of ourselves, putting others before ourselves. For some reason, that makes stupid people angry and aggressive releasing abusive behaviour. Whether they be a childhood playmate, boss, mate or even a parent, some people have this penchant to hurt nice people. Makes them feel good.

Unfortunately, there are some who claim to be dominants that exhibit this trait towards those they consider "weak".

Yeah, I guess I got knocked around by stupid people. But I consider the sources. They were low level, dull spirited, clodish imbecile bullies.

Why give them a second thought.

Am I submissive because of the abuse? Nah. I'm a giving, loving person in spite of it.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: are you submissive because of abuse? - 7/12/2006 9:10:50 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		My exboyfriend (vanilla) that I remained friends with used to tell me that people often had mistaken my kindness for weakness. I think that is often true of submissive people, not always, but sometimes.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: are you submissive because of abuse? - 7/12/2006 9:15:08 PM   
gypsyssoul


Posts: 127
Joined: 5/19/2006
From: Balti., Maryland, living in Summerville SC
Status: offline
i don't think its because of abuse ..
i have been the victim but believe that which does not . ..
kill us
sort of puts us in a fighting mood
or makes us stronger
and pushs us to go on
 
but i think .. the feelings that come from maybe not a
physical abuse ... even a mental abuse
 they give me that gut feeling that i know i crave
that turning ...inside .. that pulling where your head
goes down .... and your eyes lower ...
 
did it make me
or did i make it ..
sort of like the chicken or the egg ...
but thanks for the question ...
:: lays back in the corner to watch the ... forums turn
~~blessings


_____________________________

~~"I have always sought this other side, but like a flame I dare not touch, For like forbidden fruits of wild .. just one taste would be to much"...
~~ blessed be

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RE: are you submissive because of abuse? - 7/12/2006 9:27:50 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		No.........I had a well rounded,middle class family dynamic with loving parents. No abuse from anyone ever....Tempting 

(in reply to wildlyincomplete)
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RE: are you submissive because of abuse? - 7/12/2006 9:32:42 PM   
Taylore


Posts: 121
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wildlyincomplete

I was reading through the BBW topic and sexual abuse was mentioned a couple times.  I am curious to know other's opinions on individuals being submissive because of some kind of abuse rather than being born submissive or choosing to behave in a submissive manor.
Thanks
~beth/wildly_incomplete~

This slave was never abused as a child; either physically, mentally, or emotionally.

_____________________________

Taylore

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RE: are you submissive because of abuse? - 7/12/2006 9:53:00 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wildlyincomplete
I am curious to know other's opinions on individuals being submissive because of some kind of abuse rather than being born submissive or choosing to behave in a submissive manor.


It would seem there is indeed a trend among submissives and slaves where physical or emotional abuse was prevalent in their early years. To date, I have not enjoyed the service of any girl who was not the victim of some form of cruel maltreatment in her home or among her peers.

When sadism is visited upon us in our formative years, we often adapt to and identify with it in positive or negative form. It is as if a seed is planted within us that will search for some reflection of its source as it grows. Resist or conform; either way you are under its power.

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RE: are you submissive because of abuse? - 7/12/2006 9:56:40 PM   
Caretakr


Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline 		I agree. About 3/4 of those I have had, expressed being mentally or physically abused as children. Mapping the minefields was quite interesting-and a bit eeiry.

(in reply to amayos)
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RE: are you submissive because of abuse? - 7/12/2006 10:09:02 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

I agree. About 3/4 of those I have had, expressed being mentally or physically abused as children. Mapping the minefields was quite interesting-and a bit eeiry.


Ah, but the mindfields are such fun; abuse does make interesting people. I consider such girls as coming to me "pre-installed".

(in reply to Caretakr)
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RE: are you submissive because of abuse? - 7/12/2006 10:24:51 PM   
Caretakr


Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos


quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

I agree. About 3/4 of those I have had, expressed being mentally or physically abused as children. Mapping the minefields was quite interesting-and a bit eeiry.


Ah, but the mindfields are such fun; abuse does make interesting people. I consider such girls as coming to me "pre-installed".


Well, a quality of conditioning internal slavery is being a mind ferret. All the little wierd twists and turns.

You learn which buttons to push, then you rewire the schematic.

(in reply to amayos)
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RE: are you submissive because of abuse? - 7/12/2006 10:32:54 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Well I am not sure what counts as abuse as far as this question goes. What about subtle, yet pervasive emotional abuse? Never physical (spanked a few times) but maybe just always receiving the (deliberately given) impression you were somehow falling short - even though you got fantastic grades, kept up your physical appearance and were nice to everyone, and,  even if you were kind of shy, had more than enough friends? Does that count? 

I had wonderful parents - I really did. They were smart, saw that my sisters and I got a great education, they were (much of the time) fun to be around, took us on great vacations in the Summer. They did fight a lot with eachother (probably because they were both extroverted, dominant types). But - I truly had it so much better than about 95% of the people I know that I can't even tell if (from my mother, never, ever my father), never quite measuring up even counts as "abuse"? Maybe it was just perfectionism on her part. 

She was also on the narcissistic side; she wanted attention all the time, and she got it, too - because she was witty, entertaining, beautiful and smart. She never stopped talking. And she never listened, either. Fortunately, my dad did. But, God forbid if reality crept in and you broke a leg and had to see a doctor, or had to be picked up for an extra rehearsal or some practice at school - if your life interfered with her plans (and  she had a zillion things going at once, all the time), you weren't going to hear the end of it for days.

When I was hit with a very severe depression at age 18, that was so severe I was hardly coherent (that was completely genetically based, on my father's side of the family), and dropped out of school for a semester, on the advice of more than one doctor (I went back the next semester) she said: "What am I supposed to tell my friends - about you? Just what am I supposed to say?". She made me feel deeply ashamed of that - I was not allowed to mention it to anyone. That was something that was entirely not my fault. This kind of thing happened  - a lot. My dad rarely said anything about it (he travelled a lot for his job, so wasn't home a lot, at times).

Also, if I got an A (I always got A's) at school, why weren't they A+'s? Why was I not a cheerleder? Why was I not prom queen? She had been a prom queen - and a cheerleader. She always had lots of boyfriends (I didn't have a date until I was a junior in high school).  And - why was I so damned shy? I got pushed into so many activites I had zero desire to participate in - the only ones I ever liked were music and art. Why didn't I date more? And (even though I wasn't fat, not even close, really), my mother (who had at one time been a runway model, for a very brief period) always thought I should be "watching my weight." I became anorexic at 14, and again at 19 and I can't help but think that attitude had something to do with it. I was hardly overweight, but she thought it was "marvelous" and bragged to her bridge club when my waist measurement went from 25" to 21" in 7 weeks. A few of her friends wanted to know "my weight loss secret". "Stop eating", I said.

I am surprised (a bit) that I even posted this. Because:

1) I am not sure it qualifies as "abuse" since this stuff probably happens in half the homes in America that have kids in them and - 

2) I really did love my mother - she died two years ago of lung cancer, and I have just as many good memories as bad memories of her (maybe more good ones). I have no right to complain when I think of what some people have gone through.
I miss her every day. But I do think she had some "issues" that she could have worked on. I am sure they came from dealing with her own mother (my grandmother intimidated her her entire life). And so it goes. Not her fault, really. And not sure it counts as "abuse". More like rampant perfectionism.

- Susan  

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/12/2006 11:09:53 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to amayos)
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RE: are you submissive because of abuse? - 7/12/2006 11:05:34 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		I think it is a common misconception that submissives (and especially submissive women) suffered abuse as children.  I find the numbers quoted by Caretakr and Amayos to be very high, but that is their experience. 

For Me, well over half of the submissives I've had a relationship of any substance with had no abuse in their histories.  One was seriously, horrifically sexually and physically abused, yet in discussions she never felt it was an issue regarding submission.  And one had very much the same history SusanofO describes, and she attributed much of her submission to her issues with verbal/mental abuse and belittling by her mother and a fairly absent father (she was also a psychotherapist, so this topic was, as you might imagine, a constant discussion.)

There was a view going around in psychoanalytical and counselling circles a while ago that many sexually related kinks and fetishes originated as attempts by abused persons to reconstruct and revisit the abuse with the abuse victim being in control this time.  For example, a submissive who had been sexually and physically abused as a child might seek out a loving but firm Dominant to reenact the abuse, this time with consent by the victim, and in so doing would "work it out".  Another favorite analysis was that submissives in a 3some would be seeking to recreate serial sexual encounters that were safe and loving, and not replicate the serial incest they'd experienced as children.

I don't know that there is any validity to any of these complicated theories, but I am a bit suspicious that it is the work of "kink-UNfriendly" professionals seeking an easy fix on their patients.

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: are you submissive because of abuse? - 7/12/2006 11:13:52 PM   
fullofgrace


Posts: 395
Joined: 3/24/2006
From: fl, usa
Status: offline 		i suffered emotional abuse as a child for a few years (from my stepmother), and was later raped when i was 15. i often had the feelings of falling short of expectation that susan mentioned, to an extreme, because my mother wasn't the best at expressing herself/her expectations/her views of me as her child and i didn't come to understand that better until shortly before she died. i think the reason that it affected me SO much was because it took me years and years to realize that i wasn't a horrible daughter and that the things that we would argue about or the things that she'd say weren't her trying to make me feel like i was. i also have a history of perfectionism linked to eating disorders.

i have always been a people-pleaser, and i'm a born submissive, so that's probably why. the fact that this dominated all of my actions to the point of denial of my own self-care up until recently (and still sometimes does) has probably contributed in a nature/nurture kind of way to the depth of my submission. however, i don't really think there's a huge correlation between the two...sometimes they coincide, sometimes they don't, and when they do, the abuse as nurture part of this usually simply brings to light or exacerbates a character trait already present, imho.


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i have the kind of beauty that moves...

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RE: are you submissive because of abuse? - 7/12/2006 11:14:16 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Well I can say I am not surprised there are people involved in bdsm that have been abused, either sexually, verbally-emotonally or "just" physically. Thereare many people in the "vanilla" world who have also been abused, though. I have no stats on those, but it exists there as well.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Emperor1956)
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RE: are you submissive because of abuse? - 7/12/2006 11:40:15 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Well I can say I am not surprised there are people involved in bdsm that have been abused, either sexually, verbally-emotonally or "just" physically. Thereare many people in the "vanilla" world who have also been abused, though. I have no stats on those, but it exists there as well.

- Susan


I noticed that the statistics below show that only 1 in 7 males are molested to 1 in 4 girls being molested... tell me why it is that there are more submissive men than women if this stat is true? I will tell you that most of my girlfriends in high school had been raped or molested, most often by a family member. I wasn't, and as far as I know the vast majority of women are not submissive women seeking dominants. If 1 in 4 has been molested then there should be a lot more of us submissives out there...smiles

I took the liberty of finding a website with some stats
http://www.therapistfinder.net/Child-Abuse/Child-Abuse-Statistics.html
1,500 children die from abuse each year. There are 140,000 injuries to children from abuse each year. There are 1.7 million reports of child abuse each year."3
"...about 1 in 4 women in North America were molested in childhood."11
"More than 2 million cases of child abuse and neglect are reported each year in the United States. An estimated 150,000 to 200,000 new cases of sexual abuse occur each year."4
"There were an estimated 903,000 victims of maltreatment nationwide."22
"An estimated 1,100 children died of abuse and neglect, a rate of approximately 1.6 deaths per 100,000 children in the general populations."22
"...approximately 1 in 7 males will have been sexually molested before the age of 18."10


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: are you submissive because of abuse? - 7/12/2006 11:48:05 PM   
enigmabrat


Posts: 2383
Joined: 8/1/2004
Status: offline 		You cant lump the two togther!!!!!

_____________________________

Leather strap $85.00 on Master card
Wooden paddle $50.00 on Master card
ratten cane $48.00 on Master card

a Master that can use them all Priceless

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