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ORIGINAL: starkem

And Guage you do look rather fetching up close. No shade.

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ORIGINAL: Greta75

The ultimate skill in controlling someone, is knowing where to let go and where to be firm, to build their loyalty and obedience stronger towards you, because they trust you to give them what they need to function emotionally healthily. As one is dealing with a human being with emotions and not a dog.

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ORIGINAL: Greta75

If any dom feels like this is remotely the sub controlling him, his just the super insecure type who don't even believe deep in his heart of his own dominating abilities.

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ORIGINAL: smileforme50

But what if she feels from past experience that the only time she might get something that she likes.....gets to watch a movie she likes instead of a movie she really hates....is when she does something extra nice for him?

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ORIGINAL: starkem

All i know is I find honey dust to be quite mysteriously enticing.

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ORIGINAL: DesFIP

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ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
However, if dude or dudette puts you in the position where you constantly have to ask for (and are denied) what you need, and then try manipulation, he/she is not meeting your needs.

I believe the better choice then is to leave the relationship, instead of asshole-ing all over the place. But if one of my subs thought manipulation or trying to TFTB was the way to get their needs met, I would want to know at what point I gave them the belief that I would not respond to direct, open, and honest communication.

And the same from the dominant's side. Shouldn't they also be recognizing that their partner is unhappy and they are half the problem?

And although you respond to direct communication, there are a hell of a lot of asshole dominants out there who aren't. Who seek a power relationship because they erroneously believe that means they don't have to talk to, nor listen to, their partner. That they can just shut them up and do what they want and that's all that's required.

And these are the same types who refuse to release a partner when they're unhappy.

Asshole behavior comes on both side of the slash.

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ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

The term "topping from the bottom" is thrown about by Won Twoo Wayists the way that "Did you find everything you were looking for?" is tossed out by grocery store check clerks, and with the sneering disdain usually reserved for the 'poor, unaware vanillas.'

Submissives and slaves are told, "You're topping from the bottom. You're not a real ______!"

But why?

What is this 'topping from the bottom', and why is it so heinous a crime?

Let's rip this shit open!

Urban Dictionary defines topping from the bottom as:

quote:

In its basic, literal sense, it means exactly what it says. The person on the bottom is leading the top, thus technically topping from the bottom. ​

The person on the bottom (submissive/slave) is leading.

Oh mi godz, the horrors!

Oh wait. No, I don't feel that way. In fact, I'm really just feeling that people who use this term as an insult are asshole-ing.

(asshole-ing: the verb of being an asshole all over other people, without their consent. Yes, it's a thing. I just made it one.)

Perhaps I'm just not getting it.

Let's check out that definition again (bold is my emphasis):

quote:

In its basic, literal sense, it means exactly what it says. The person on the bottom is leading the top, thus technically topping from the bottom. ​

​

So, the term topping from the bottom means that the bottom/sub/slave is LEADING the Top/Dominant/Master.

Well, fuckerooni! No WONDER all the tip-toppy types are all woried! The bitchez is takin' over!

Wait. Whut?

No.

No.

No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

I suggest that 'topping from the bottom' be retired as anything but a description of a particular type of scene.

Reason the First

The main reason: It makes YOU, oh Domly One, look like a fucking idiot.

Because you're saying that the submissive has taken the lead from you.

Yeah. Read that definition again, then look at those examples.

You've lost your lead (if you ever had it). Your respect as a leader. You're not doing your job, filling your role. Your other is stepping up to take it away from you (or never gave it to you to begin with).

And you know what? In that case, I say, "Fuck yeah! Good onya!"

Because you are obviously not meeting their needs, if they have to lie, cheat, beg, manipulate, or brat out to get what they want from you.

You're asshole-ing from the middle of your own puddle of shit here.

Reason The Second

If you're saying this to an s-type that you are talking to online, because they are asserting their need to be spoken to as a human being, explaining what they are looking for in a relationship, or refusing to call you "GrandLordWolfyMcDommyPants," until you're actually IN a relationship, you're prematurely asshole-ing.

Reason the Third

If you're saying it about someone else's dynamic, well then, you're always the asshole for judging that.

You're asshole-ing from the sidelines.

For the s-Types

So, remember when I said to the left side of the slash:

Because you are obviously not meeting their needs, if they have to lie, cheat, beg, manipulate, or brat out to get what they want from you. ​

??

Well, I'll tell you, it does not reflect well on you to lie, cheat, beg, manipulate, or brat out, ever. I mean, I get it. Avoiding confrontation (or misdirecting it) is a time-honored tradition.

But it's not likely to get you what you want. It's just going to confuse the issue and make it even less likely that your real needs will be heard, understood, and met.

And that makes you the one asshole-ing.

Yeah, even s-types can asshole all over the place. Perceived power or not.

You're also asshole-ing just as much as the D-types if you judge other people's dynamics. Just saying.

What is the Assholery-Free Use of the phrase 'Topping from the Bottom'?

The kind where you are teaching, with a sense of goodwill and mutual benefit.

An experienced submissive has a lot to teach. Even an inexperienced submissive can have a lot to teach about his/herself. There is nothing wrong with that teaching.

In a scene.

In an email.

In a discussion.

With fireworks, histrionics, manipulation... just teaching.

And if you are doing that, clearly communicating your interests, what gives you pleasure, your boundaries, etc, in a helpful and not creepy or whiny way, and some Uber-Dom tells you that you are topping from the bottom, feel free to just walk away.

Because they have already lost control of the situation. And are too busy asshole-ing to lead you.

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ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

Wow.

That actually stripped all my neurons clean.

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ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

The clearest and simplest way I heard it explained was that topping from the bottom is often a direct reaction to bottoming from the top. When the bottom has lost faith in the top to effectively dominate them, causing problems in the dynamic, which the bottom is attempting to resolve by stepping in and taking command.

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ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

The term "topping from the bottom" is thrown about by Won Twoo Wayists the way that "Did you find everything you were looking for?" is tossed out by grocery store check clerks, and with the sneering disdain usually reserved for the 'poor, unaware vanillas.'

Submissives and slaves are told, "You're topping from the bottom. You're not a real ______!"

But why?

What is this 'topping from the bottom', and why is it so heinous a crime?

Let's rip this shit open!

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ORIGINAL: Bhruic

Topping from the bottom can, I think, happen for a number of reasons, but I think the most common is probably "We really didn't talk this scene out first, and this is doing nothing for me."

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ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I hate the term.

I find it is usually an insecure guy who wishes to be with a robotic type vs, an intellectual and feisty type.

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ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

Topping from the bottom can, I think, happen for a number of reasons, but I think the most common is probably "We really didn't talk this scene out first, and this is doing nothing for me."


Agreed.

And I cover that. But the idea that some use it to denigrate makes no sense.

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ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

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In its basic, literal sense, it means exactly what it says. The person on the bottom is leading the top, thus technically topping from the bottom. ​

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ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

They can only lead if you follow, and once you consent to follow, you forfeit all rights to bitch.

Jus sayin

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ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

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ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

They can only lead if you follow, and once you consent to follow, you forfeit all rights to bitch.

Jus sayin

Ahhh. You keep trying this humiliation play with me! Saying what I was saying, only with fewer words and a snappier sound bite.

RED! Damnit, red!

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ORIGINAL: SweetForDaddy

The whole term seems a bit ridiculous to me, like its laying the fault at the feet of the bottom when it's a deeper problem within the relationship. As a submissive if something is happening to me that I can't at least tolerate I'm going to say so and stop it. If something is constantly happening that I can only just tolerate I'm going to speak up, I don't want to spend my entire life enduring things I hate. If my needs aren't being met I will again say something. I wouldn't top from the bottom for long because this person obviously wouldn't the right one for me. There have been times when I've met someone lovely and really wanted to be involved with them but if the right dynamic isn't there it's very difficult, if not impossible to create. I'm not sure its possible to teach someone how to dominate me, the roles seem to have to be reversed somewhat to do that, which in effect ruins it for me. I would feel like I was being serviced.

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ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

Pfffttt... that may be your safe word, but not the one "WE" are using.

Jus sayin

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P.S. It is a great topic, Darlin, and a much needed one. I hope the lurkers garner much insight from it.