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RE: BREAKING NEWS - 12/12/2014 2:22:40 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

The world was supposed to love us again after electing our affirmative action candidate

How is that working out

Pretty well, actually

http://www.gallup.com/poll/168425/global-image-leadership-rebounds.aspx


Probably due to the Snowden revelations and all of Obamas drone killings

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RE: BREAKING NEWS - 12/12/2014 2:29:18 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


The United States used harsh interrogation techniques after 9/11, including WATERBOARDING

http://news.yahoo.com/fears-backlash-us-release-cia-torture-report-023713739.html

I shit you not

Anybody who thinks that their own country military is not doing the same are deluding themselves. The only difference is, US seem to be the lousiest at keeping such things away from public media as compared to other countries.

I tell ya, if they capture a terrorist who planted the bomb that is gonna blow a few places up, or even schools, they are gonna threaten to rape his wife, kill his children, whatever it takes to break him to find out where those bombs are to un-detonate it. I'm pretty sure terrorists don't give up information if you kill them with kindness.

I don't know why we are condemning the military for doing what is necessary to get information to protect us.




The Democrats are collectively trolling the tired old worn out "George Bush" card because even they are beginning to realize that their race card has been so pathetically overused that it has now made them a laughingstock

"BUH-BUH-BUH- BBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Fucking mindless little trolls...

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RE: BREAKING NEWS - 12/12/2014 2:29:35 PM   
mnottertail


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Probably. It won't matter what he does, it will be more popular than nutsuckers.


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Profile   Post #: 123
RE: BREAKING NEWS - 12/12/2014 2:31:13 PM   
BitYakin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So are you against using waterboarding or for it?

Or does it depend on which party tells you?



I know this won't be popular but I will share, anyway.

I don't think the first question (part) is as black-and-white as some might.

If it could be proven to me that torture had saved an innocent life, I might be able to condone it. Of course, at that point, I'd have the benefit of hindsight but let me put it a different way:

Your child/grandchild/significant other/cute innocent little kid from down the block/pick your victim has been taken hostage by an evil doer of any stripe (kidnapper/rapist/terrorist/whatever). The authorities believe that if they use some extreme methods, your loved one might be found alive.

I cannot totally condemn getting the car battery and jumper cables, at that point. I wish I could claim to be more evolved than that but I can't.

As a neutral concept, of course I'm against torture, always, but when I make it personal, the value of standing on principles lessons compared to my desire to keep my loved ones safe.



Michael




I have to say I think that's one of the most realistic posts on this subject I've heard yet...

kind of reminds me a lil of the anti-gun people who say, if it saves JUST ONE LIFE blahhhhhhhhhh blahhhhhhhhhhhh blahhhhhhhhhh

now let the attacks begin, or is it resume....


Here is the blah blah blah, if it does save lives, then the CIA has accurate, credible, citable, researchable documentation of that fact. Show the fucking stuff. The game is over.




except for the tiny point of, I never said either saves lives, I just pointed out the "familiar ring" of the two arguments

you do that ALOT, take what someone says and respond as if they said something entirely different...

do you ever make a post that doesn't attempt to demonize the poster?

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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: BREAKING NEWS - 12/12/2014 2:54:37 PM   
mnottertail


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What the fuck are you swallowing turds over. Did I say YOU anywhere in the response? My response was as general as yours.

You said sounds like, I can make a converse argument to yours. And I did! You aren't important.


You know what it sounds like from the nutsuckers?

Gobble turd, gobble turd, gobble turd, we have knowledge it saved lives. Show the shit. Otherwise any nutsucker who takes that tack has a dick in one hand, a turd in the mouth, and an empty whiskey bottle in which they are trying to play spit the turd into.




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Profile   Post #: 125
RE: BREAKING NEWS - 12/12/2014 4:33:58 PM   
Lucylastic


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Beyond the lurid revelations in the CIA torture report, the spectacle of senior Republican leaders defending torture is equally shocking and disturbing. Of course, the rush to shield President George W. Bush, the most recognized face of the Republican Party, is politically expedient: The torture report is a moral (and perhaps even criminal indictment) of the Bush administration.

Going into the 2016 election cycle, refreshing voters' memories as to the grand fiasco that was the Bush administration, is bound to have long-lasting political implications — none positive for a GOP desperate to capture the White House and maintain its congressional majorities.

Whether it's Sens. Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) or Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) decrying the release of the report as a political stunt — six weeks after the election — that outrage that you're hearing is nothing more than Washington-speak for "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" when confronted by an uncomfortable, deeply embarrassing truth.
As the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence report states, the Bush administration's torture program not only was illegal and immoral — it didn't even pass the Machiavellian test of the ends justified the means. In short, there is no proof that these vicious torture techniques ever led to any meaningful or actionable intelligence.

The torture program was a failure in all respects except one — helping our global competitors. Bush's program helped undermine American leadership in the world. The American Empire is not a traditional empire like the British or Spanish were. We don't hold territory, nor do we go to war to enforce our will (Iraq being the great exception).

American global leadership is predicated on military might (that is a message in itself, like the Roman legions that assured the Pax Romana), great economic power and a moral compass that gives confidence to many countries that the U.S. is truly motivated to keep the peace, help nations in distress and be a forcible advocate for human rights across the globe.

When Bush personally authorized the "enhanced interrogation techniques," the Orwellian phrase to describe the torture program, he undermined decades of American national prestige and claims of moral leadership. Like the strategic disastrous invasion of Iraq, sold with lies and which resulted in strengthening America's true enemy in the region, Iran, Bush's torture program weakened America's relative power in the world.

While the U.S. has constantly shined a bright light on China's horrendous human rights record, with extralegal executions and savage, Maoist work camps, why would other countries not see a moral equivalency between the communist regime's tactics and Bush's torture program?

Well, based on global polling from the end of the Bush administration, most of the world did in fact see a moral equivalency between the land of liberty and the brutal communist regime in China.

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), often the lone wolf of the GOP, had to go to the floor of the Senate to explain to his colleagues why torture is always immoral and illegal. The one and only member of the Congress who suffered brutal, unimaginable torture at the hands of the North Vietnamese is now in his familiar role of teaching his torture-happy colleagues why American and international law prohibiting torture must be obeyed.

McCain also had to school his Republicans colleagues on the importance of an American foreign policy firmly rooted in moral values of national self-interest — that America is that shining city on the hill that cannot be compared to any other country.

But for President Reagan's metaphor to be true, the American government must always aspire, if not fully reach, a totally different level of moral comportment relative to countries like China, Iran and Russia for which torture is a banal tool of state repression and ethnic subjugation.

The incoming majority leader of the Senate, McConnell, issued a statement that in part said, "The fact that the CIA's Detention and Interrogation program developed significant intelligence that helped us identify and capture important (al-Qaeda) terrorists, disrupt their ongoing plotting, and take down (Osama bin Laden) is incontrovertible. Claims included in this report that assert the contrary are simply wrong."

Yet there is no evidence presented by Republicans, aside from the strident, source-free assertions of former Vice President Cheney, desperate to salvage what's left of his reputation, that the torture program led to the capture of bin Laden. However, the CIA's own records specifically rule out any link between torture and the capture and killing of bin Laden by the Obama administration.

While politically understandable that Republican leaders would want to defend a failed program hatched in the Bush White House, it is morally indefensible that these leaders actually defend the use of torture.

Republicans advocating for illegality in the name of achieving a political need is reprehensible — and just weeks from their congressional takeover, this GOP embrace of fundamental lawlessness and moral degradation should provoke all Americans to take a moment of reflection.

Are we as a nation willing to be governed by amoral, dishonest defenders of potential crimes of war? Are we on the precipice of destroying the core values that have made America great? This is the time to decide if we want to be real Americans, or a sad cartoon of a hypocritical America that violates national values, laws and traditions when expedient.



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RE: BREAKING NEWS - 12/12/2014 6:33:27 PM   
Greta75


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Lucy, you are British right? I hope you know that your British military has been doing the same things or worst, just that, it does not get out to the media. And also their inhumane torture techniques have saved lives in Britain.
I still don't get all these condemnation for torture of terrorists for information.
If they tortured an innocent person who isn't planning to grand plans to kill alot more innocent people, I would be outrage.

But these aren't innocents being tortured for information.

If the torture program was a failure to get information, I'd say it's the red tape in the US that prevents them from being more brutal. To get information, you must get to their family and threaten their family and even hurt their family infront of them, they will break. US can't do that, because of all the red tape. Terrorists are like top soldiers, trained to withstand torture, plus their religious faith in what they believe will send them to heaven will give them the strength to resist everything.

I seriously have no sympathy for kind and humane treatment for people who are plotting mass murder.

Condemning the soldiers who have to do the ugliest job in the world, that would hunt their conscience for life for the sake of keeping the nation safe to me, is just being so fuck them for their sacrifice of their own peace of mind.

You know to be an "official" military "torturer", they got to go through psychology test, they really got to pick individuals who won't go mad or tormented after performing these acts. Who is strong enough to deal with it and have the control. It's a freaking dirty job.



< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/12/2014 6:43:21 PM >

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RE: BREAKING NEWS - 12/12/2014 6:43:02 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

Lucy, you are British right? I hope you know that your British military has been doing the same things or worst, just that, it does not get out to the media. And also their inhumane torture techniques have saved lives in Britain.
I still don't get all these condemnation for torture of terrorists for information.
If they tortured an innocent person who isn't planning to grand plans to kill alot more innocent people, I would be outrage.

But these aren't innocents being tortured for information.




I trained with the British in the 1980s, what they did to discipline their own men was brutal

My girl there, her ex was in prison for torturing her

He tied her to a chair, then took a wire coat hanger and looped it around her face, right at the bridge of the nose then used a stick to twist it at the back thereby tightening it on her head, liked to cut her head in two that way

She still had the scars to show me

Wonder where he learned that...


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RE: BREAKING NEWS - 12/12/2014 6:45:11 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

Lucy, you are British right? I hope you know that your British military has been doing the same things or worst, just that, it does not get out to the media. And also their inhumane torture techniques have saved lives in Britain.
I still don't get all these condemnation for torture of terrorists for information.
If they tortured an innocent person who isn't planning to grand plans to kill alot more innocent people, I would be outrage.

But these aren't innocents being tortured for information.

If the torture program was a failure to get information, I'd say it's the red tape in the US that prevents them from being more brutal. To get information, you must get to their family and threaten their family and even hurt their family infront of them, they will break. US can't do that, because of all the red tape.

I seriously have no sympathy for kind and humane treatment for people who are plotting mass murder.





No, REALLY???? weally??? they have? OMG ...noooooo they wouldnt...we have a spotless history.... however can you say that...lies.... I tell you.
Really, Im MORE than aware of what can and has been done by the government of my homeland.
Or the government of my current country of choice.

That you find torture to be ok, despite it being a war crime, and been such since the end of the last world war, just shows the ignorance you splash about like cheap perfume.




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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: BREAKING NEWS - 12/12/2014 6:51:59 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

Lucy, you are British right? I hope you know that your British military has been doing the same things or worst, just that, it does not get out to the media. And also their inhumane torture techniques have saved lives in Britain.
I still don't get all these condemnation for torture of terrorists for information.
If they tortured an innocent person who isn't planning to grand plans to kill alot more innocent people, I would be outrage.

But these aren't innocents being tortured for information.

If the torture program was a failure to get information, I'd say it's the red tape in the US that prevents them from being more brutal. To get information, you must get to their family and threaten their family and even hurt their family infront of them, they will break. US can't do that, because of all the red tape.

I seriously have no sympathy for kind and humane treatment for people who are plotting mass murder.




That you find torture to be ok, despite it being a war crime, and been such since the end of the last world war, just shows the ignorance you splash about like cheap perfume.



Brainless fucking trolls

Cant have a legitimate debate with them, as they always have to sink to a personal attack

Too fucking lowlife and stupid to "debate" any other way


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RE: BREAKING NEWS - 12/12/2014 6:56:10 PM   
Lucylastic


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The Torture Party: Why Republicans Defend the Most Sadistic Government Program in Recent History
If George W. Bush’s fervent insistence that his government did not engage in torture does not define and haunt him forever—like Richard Nixon insisting he was not a crook, or Bill Clinton denying he had sexual relations with that woman—it will only be for the paradoxical reason that he insisted as much too many times for any one clip to supply the iconic denial.

The Bush administration’s supporters, operating under the assumption that its most brutal “enhanced interrogation technique” was waterboarding, spent much of the past decade defending this singular practice. Waterboarding did not amount to torture, they insisted, because Navy SEALS allegedly undergo the same treatment as part of their training. Anyway, it happened just a handful of times. Marc Thiessen, the Bush administration’s torture point man, later insisted, “We waterboarded in the CIA—the CIA waterboarded three terrorists. Just three.”

The torture regimen turns out to have been carried out on a vastly broader and more depraved scale than the administration’s defenders, or even its critics, ever imagined. The Senate Intelligence Committee’s report on CIA torture, released this week, describes practices few conservative politicians or intellectuals had prepared themselves to justify. Men were shackled to walls or ceilings for days, in diapers, locked in coffins, rectally violated, subject to days of sleep deprivation, beaten, and (in one instance) murdered. Several intelligence staffers reported being traumatized by the experience.
Related Stories
Frank Rich on the National Circus: America Is Still in Denial About Torture 5 Appalling Takeaways From the Senate’s CIA Torture Report CIA Director Still Won’t Quite Say Torture Was Actually Torture Republican Congressman Seems to Have Skipped Some Key Parts of the Torture Report

That is more than one can say for the torture apologists. Having dug in to mount an extended, pointillistic defense of waterboarding, they have found their position suddenly overrun, and have retreated to new ground. “Every civilized nation agrees that torture is wrong,” Senator Ted Cruz complained after the report was released, but, “after six years, enough with saying ‘everything is George W. Bush’s fault.’ ” To Cruz and other Republicans still in office, the allegation that the Bush administration used torture had gone from outrageous smear to tired news without ever having passed through the stage of acceptable topic of discussion. Senator Marco Rubio insisted on Twitter, “Those who served us in aftermath of 9/11 deserve our thanks not one-sided partisan Senate report that now places American lives in danger.” Rubio’s previous tweet boasted that the Senate has passed “our bill imposing sanctions against human-rights violators” in Venezuela. The cognitive dissonance surely whooshed right over Rubio’s elegantly coiffed head.

The nature of evil has been a Republican obsession since immediately after 9/11. Evil is not only present in our enemies but, at times, their most distinguishing characteristic. (Bush’s “Axis of Evil” conveniently lumped together the otherwise unallied Iran, Iraq, and North Korea.) Human-rights violations are things bad guys do. We’re the good guys. “The United States of America is awesome. We are awesome,” insisted the apparently sincere Fox News host Andrea Tantaros last week. “This administration wants to have this discussion to show us how we’re not awesome.” As a frank display of unreasoning chauvinistic bellicosity, this was, in its own way, awesome. It was also no less sophisticated a response than Dick Cheney’s, who quickly dismissed the Senate’s detail-laden report as “hooey,” “full of crap,” and “a crock.”

For a leader long obsessed with the cruelty of communist regimes and jihadist movements, Cheney has always been complacent about mimicking that cruelty himself. In May 2009, he gave a speech at the American Enterprise Institute, an esteemed conservative think tank in Washington. Radiating gravitas, he referred repeatedly to the subjects of “enhanced interrogation” as “terrorists.” “In the years after 9/11, our government also understood that the safety of the country required collecting information known only to the worst of the terrorists,” he announced. And: “On the left wing of the president’s party, there appears to be little curiosity in finding out what was learned from the terrorists.” And: “You’ve heard endlessly about waterboarding. It happened to three terrorists.” And: “Few matters have inspired so much contrived indignation and phony moralizing as the interrogation methods applied to a few captured terrorists.”

At no point did Cheney even approach a cursory answer to questions like: How did he know that those subjected to these techniques were, in fact, terrorists? Did some elaborate judicial process exist that contained even stronger safeguards against false conviction than the imperfect American legal system? How could American intelligence staffers, dropped into foreign lands, reliably pluck out the guilty while sparing the innocent?

As we now know, they could not. ­Twenty-six of the 119 detainees turned out to be innocent. One of them was a Pakistani or Afghan man named Janat Gul. In July 2004, the CIA seized Gul, acting on a tip from a local informant who claimed he knew of a terror plot. His interrogators subjected him to sleep deprivation, slammed him into walls, and forced him to stand for as long as 47 hours in a row until he suffered hallucinations that he could see and hear his wife and children. He begged to be killed. Eventually, the informant who fingered Gul admitted to fabricating his story.

The Americans who engaged in this sadism should not necessarily be considered sadists. As their Republican defenders point out, they lived in terror of another mass-casualty attack. Their brutality arose from an attempt to prevent brutality on an even wider scale.

The failings of the torture regimen were, in fact, every conservative nightmare of a failed, out-of-control government program come to life. Through banal bureaucratic dysfunction, the torturers stumbled into a practice that lacked any sound empirical basis. (The CIA—which simply reverse-engineered the resistance training its own elite soldiers underwent, which tought them to withstand torture from communist regimes attempting to solicit propagandist false confessions—never considered that a practice designed to elicit false confessions is poorly suited to drawing out true ones.) Officials covered up their own mistakes; soldiers carried out practices haphazardly—some subjects were tortured for weeks before being interrogated. These are all acts of cruelty that Republicans would surely find terrifying—evil, even—if enacted by foreign governments, or Democratic administrations. And yet a fixation on evil abroad rendered invisible the most egregious abuses of government powers at home.

The most important evidence of the Bush administration’s disposition toward torture may have come not from the Senate report but from Cheney’s second and more carefully considered reply. Appearing later that night on Fox News, the former vice-president was no longer merely dismissing the report’s conclusions out of hand. Nor was he retreating to the slick evasions or complaints about George W. Bush’s feelings that so many of his fellow Republicans had relied upon.

The host, Bret Baier, asked Cheney about Bush’s reported discomfort when told of a detainee’s having been chained to a dungeon ceiling, clothed only in a diaper, and forced to urinate and defecate on himself. “What are we supposed to do? Kiss him on both cheeks and say ‘Please, please, tell us what you know’?” Cheney said. “Of course not. We did exactly what needed to be done in order to catch those who were guilty on 9/11 and prevent a further attack, and we were successful on both parts.”

Here, finally, was the brutal moral logic of Cheneyism on bright display. The insistence by his fellow partisans on averting their eyes from the horrible truth at least grows out of a human reaction. Cheney does not even understand why somebody would look away. His soul is a cold, black void.



http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/12/torture-party-republicans.html







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RE: BREAKING NEWS - 12/12/2014 7:00:04 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

Lucy, you are British right? I hope you know that your British military has been doing the same things or worst, just that, it does not get out to the media. And also their inhumane torture techniques have saved lives in Britain.
I still don't get all these condemnation for torture of terrorists for information.
If they tortured an innocent person who isn't planning to grand plans to kill alot more innocent people, I would be outrage.

But these aren't innocents being tortured for information.

If the torture program was a failure to get information, I'd say it's the red tape in the US that prevents them from being more brutal. To get information, you must get to their family and threaten their family and even hurt their family infront of them, they will break. US can't do that, because of all the red tape.

I seriously have no sympathy for kind and humane treatment for people who are plotting mass murder.




That you find torture to be ok, despite it being a war crime, and been such since the end of the last world war, just shows the ignorance you splash about like cheap perfume.



Brainless fucking trolls

Cant have a legitimate debate with them, as they always have to sink to a personal attack

Too fucking lowlife and stupid to "debate" any other way


stick to the topic goody two shoes....this isnt about you, and YOUR personal attacks


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RE: BREAKING NEWS - 12/12/2014 7:01:39 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

The Torture Party: Why Republicans Defend the Most Sadistic Government Program in Recent History


Is that what passes for balanced "journalism" in your circles

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RE: BREAKING NEWS - 12/12/2014 7:03:25 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

stick to the topic goody two shoes....this isnt about you, and YOUR personal attacks



Goody two shoes...

Make upo your mind

I was "the torture party" two minutes ago

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RE: BREAKING NEWS - 12/12/2014 7:07:55 PM   
Lucylastic


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LOL SO you have nothing to negate, or discuss, just denial and ignoring the piece:)
Why dont you stick to the topic,
Or you can check out the link I posted from the Hill earlier today(hardly ahem left leaning.)
or continue to ignore how a huge number of americans and the world feels.

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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: BREAKING NEWS - 12/12/2014 7:09:01 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

stick to the topic goody two shoes....this isnt about you, and YOUR personal attacks



Goody two shoes...

Make upo your mind

I was "the torture party" two minutes ago

and whoooosh up over your head....

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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: BREAKING NEWS - 12/12/2014 7:12:25 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Cheney does not even understand why somebody would look away. His soul is a cold, black void.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/12/torture-party-republicans.html


Not that your copy&paste propaganda piece is connected to reality in any way...

But again, the Dems were fully in the loop on the interrogation methods, never objecting until they smelled political opportunity

Then they threw our soldiers under the bus along with Obamas own grandmother and his preacher







< Message edited by Sanity -- 12/12/2014 7:14:35 PM >


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RE: BREAKING NEWS - 12/12/2014 7:26:17 PM   
Lucylastic


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not a single thing to back up your "claims" as usual.

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RE: BREAKING NEWS - 12/12/2014 8:16:30 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

not a single thing to back up your "claims" as usual.


That youre too old, slow, stupid and confused to keep up with that old news (even after Ive previously posted links to the article in this very thread) is on you, not me, hag

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Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: BREAKING NEWS - 12/13/2014 4:28:42 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
Can't back up claims IF it's top secret stuffs that don't go out to the media! British Military is so much better air-tight than US military, like seriously.

I don't know what's going on with US Military and all their continuous leaking. Obviously, you will always have people upset and outrage by torture.

But the next time if they have their children, or family as hostages in some unknown place, I hope they also tell the military to, "It's okay, don't torture the poor guy for information, make sure you treat him with basic decency. We aren't barbarians like them. " Of course, no information is ever gonna be disclosed. I really just want to know if there are any humane effective methods that really worked in gathering information from such people?



< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/13/2014 4:33:22 AM >

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 140
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