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RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 10:54:40 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		I listen to my doctor on health matters more than anyone else.

Whom do you listen to instead of your doctor, and why?

(in reply to LiveSpark)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 11:04:14 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Do you see evidence of forced anything?

Geez. Let the fuckers become diabetics, instead of helping them prevent it.

Maybe just fucking shoot them. Fun for all! With automatic weapons and unstamped ammo.

Here's the ominous threat:

“We are calling for a national new year's resolution in January to tackle the aftermath of turkey, pud and cake,” he said.

On current trends, 63 per cent of men in their 50s will be obese by 2034, along with 38 per cent of women, official data shows.

If average rates of obesity were brought back to 1993 levels, around five million incidences of disease could be prevented in two decades, official forecasts show.
Do you see the difference between information being between the doctor and the patient in the doctor-patient relationship...a confidential relationship...and information going outside the doctor-patient relationship to the government so that the government can now become involved in your treatment plan?

You act as if the government being directly involved in your healthcare...even in an advisory capacity...is o.k.


Ummmm..... Nope.
The government is not involved in any way shape or form other than to pick up the tab.
No information is ever passed outside of the doctor/patient confidentiality.

The doctor-patient relationship of confidentiality is kept.
How?? Strangely enough, it is the doctor and practice nurse that will keep tabs on dietary advice and monitoring blood pressure, weight, and all the other things needed to see that the patient is sticking to the advice.
Unlike the US, doctor visits and weight monitoring/diabetic clinics are free; so it doesn't matter if they see the patient every day or two or once a week or whatever it takes.
And for many surgeries, they do actually have a real-time webcam link to the patient with more coming online every day.
And none of that info is passed on to any government agency - it is kept confidential between doctor and patient just like all your other medical and personal info.


Where the fuck you get the idea that the government is somehow involved in the healthcare I have no idea.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 11:09:20 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark

How does ANYONE ensure compliance? Even doctors can't do that, all they can do is inform their patients and hope they do as their doctor suggests. The idea that doctors are somehow more capable of getting their patients to comply is ludicrous and naive at best.


The government has an option for ensuring compliance that pretty much no one else does. Government ensures compliance with their rules and policies through state-sanctioned violence.

No one thinks that the doctors are going to ensure compliance. The government can. I just want to know the method.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to LiveSpark)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 11:13:57 AM   
LiveSpark


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/25/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I listen to my doctor on health matters more than anyone else.

Whom do you listen to instead of your doctor, and why?


I also listen to my doctor more than anyone else. But I work for doctors and have done so for 20 years or so and an alarming number of people don't listen to their doctor. Time after time the doctor dictates that the patient doesn't take medication, hasn't made dietary changes, and doesn't exercise. There is only so much a doctor can do, the rest is up to the patient(s).

_____________________________

I've been here as MontrealPhoenix, zephyr and
TheFireWithinMe.

I also have the sarcasm gene which is NOT to be taken seriously.

If you fall I'll always be there to catch you ~ Floor

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 11:16:59 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		An alarming number of people don't listen to anyone. They aren't singling out doctors.

(in reply to LiveSpark)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 11:20:39 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark

How does ANYONE ensure compliance? Even doctors can't do that, all they can do is inform their patients and hope they do as their doctor suggests. The idea that doctors are somehow more capable of getting their patients to comply is ludicrous and naive at best.


The government has an option for ensuring compliance that pretty much no one else does. Government ensures compliance with their rules and policies through state-sanctioned violence.

No one thinks that the doctors are going to ensure compliance. The government can. I just want to know the method.

No, the government DOES NOT have an option for compliance.

What do you think they are gonna do??
Send an armed officer to your house and frog-march you to the doctor/clinic at gun point??

No such thing as state-sanctioned violence - at least not here.
So..... there is NO method.
We don't live in a totalitarian dictatorship; much as you like to think we do.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 11:26:24 AM   
LiveSpark


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/25/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

An alarming number of people don't listen to anyone. They aren't singling out doctors.


Hey I'm just responding to those who think that there will magically be compliance if this is done by doctors. It simply isn't true.

_____________________________

I've been here as MontrealPhoenix, zephyr and
TheFireWithinMe.

I also have the sarcasm gene which is NOT to be taken seriously.

If you fall I'll always be there to catch you ~ Floor

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 11:41:25 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark

How does ANYONE ensure compliance? Even doctors can't do that, all they can do is inform their patients and hope they do as their doctor suggests. The idea that doctors are somehow more capable of getting their patients to comply is ludicrous and naive at best.


The government has an option for ensuring compliance that pretty much no one else does. Government ensures compliance with their rules and policies through state-sanctioned violence.

No one thinks that the doctors are going to ensure compliance. The government can. I just want to know the method.

No, the government DOES NOT have an option for compliance.

What do you think they are gonna do??
Send an armed officer to your house and frog-march you to the doctor/clinic at gun point??

No such thing as state-sanctioned violence - at least not here.
So..... there is NO method.
We don't live in a totalitarian dictatorship; much as you like to think we do.



No state-sanctioned violence for compliance, huh?

In another thread you said that parents were unable to enter school campuses during the day to have lunch with their children. What happens when a parent forces their way in?

What happens when you have 10 shots in one hour and drive home from the bar?

Can you snatch some girl off the street and make her cook, clean, and have sex with you? If you try and do this what happens?

What happens when the speed limit is 30 and they clock you at 50?

How about throwing a brick through a window?

Are all of these things acceptable where you live?

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 11:47:09 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

An alarming number of people don't listen to anyone. They aren't singling out doctors.


Hey I'm just responding to those who think that there will magically be compliance if this is done by doctors. It simply isn't true.


I think that several of us are questioning how compliance with diet and exercise is going to be ensured.

"close monitoring to ensure they are eating better and exercising more."

How is that going to be done?

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to LiveSpark)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 11:58:09 AM   
LiveSpark


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/25/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

An alarming number of people don't listen to anyone. They aren't singling out doctors.


Hey I'm just responding to those who think that there will magically be compliance if this is done by doctors. It simply isn't true.


I think that several of us are questioning how compliance with diet and exercise is going to be ensured.

"close monitoring to ensure they are eating better and exercising more."

How is that going to be done?


They can't, noone can including doctors. There are those who will and those who won't. So the use of the word ensure is unfortunate, perhaps to make it seem they are going to do more than they actually will/can.

_____________________________

I've been here as MontrealPhoenix, zephyr and
TheFireWithinMe.

I also have the sarcasm gene which is NOT to be taken seriously.

If you fall I'll always be there to catch you ~ Floor

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 12:11:06 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
No state-sanctioned violence for compliance, huh?

Nope.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
In another thread you said that parents were unable to enter school campuses during the day to have lunch with their children. What happens when a parent forces their way in?

If uninvited or have a legitimate reason to be there, they are asked to leave.
If they don't leave when invited to do so they are reported for trespassing on school property and are more than likely to be escorted off the premises by the police.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
What happens when you have 10 shots in one hour and drive home from the bar?

That's your problem.
You take your chances of not having an accident or getting pulled over by the police (and probably arrested for DUI).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Can you snatch some girl off the street and make her cook, clean, and have sex with you? If you try and do this what happens?

Nothing - if you don't get caught.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
What happens when the speed limit is 30 and they clock you at 50?

You get a fixed penalty fine through your letterbox.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
How about throwing a brick through a window?

Again... Nothing if you run fast enough and don't get reported.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Are all of these things acceptable where you live?

Nope.
But we don't have armed police banging your door down like you do in the US!!

And WTF have all these "what-if's" got to do with patient compliance or this topic??

The doctors are there to advise. If you don't want to take their advice, so be it.
There won't be anyone chasing you about it and there won't be anyone knocking on your door either.
And most assuredly, there won't be anyone armed or forcing you to follow their advice.



_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 12:21:12 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
No state-sanctioned violence for compliance, huh?

Nope.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
In another thread you said that parents were unable to enter school campuses during the day to have lunch with their children. What happens when a parent forces their way in?

If uninvited or have a legitimate reason to be there, they are asked to leave.
If they don't leave when invited to do so they are reported for trespassing on school property and are more than likely to be escorted off the premises by the police.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
What happens when you have 10 shots in one hour and drive home from the bar?

That's your problem.
You take your chances of not having an accident or getting pulled over by the police (and probably arrested for DUI).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Can you snatch some girl off the street and make her cook, clean, and have sex with you? If you try and do this what happens?

Nothing - if you don't get caught.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
What happens when the speed limit is 30 and they clock you at 50?

You get a fixed penalty fine through your letterbox.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
How about throwing a brick through a window?

Again... Nothing if you run fast enough and don't get reported.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Are all of these things acceptable where you live?

Nope.
But we don't have armed police banging your door down like you do in the US!!

And WTF have all these "what-if's" got to do with patient compliance or this topic??

The doctors are there to advise. If you don't want to take their advice, so be it.
There won't be anyone chasing you about it and there won't be anyone knocking on your door either.
And most assuredly, there won't be anyone armed or forcing you to follow their advice.




All of those are "penalties" are forms of state-sanctioned violence to ensure compliance with laws and regulations.

If you do not want to take the doctor's advise then what does: "close monitoring to ensure they are eating better and exercising more" mean?

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 12:30:36 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
All of those are "penalties" are forms of state-sanctioned violence to ensure compliance with laws and regulations.

Nope, not violence.
And breaking a law and getting due process does not involve guns and unless you want to go screaming and kicking, there isn't usually any violence either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
If you do not want to take the doctor's advise then what does: "close monitoring to ensure they are eating better and exercising more" mean?

Any moron would realize this would ONLY happen, at your doctor's surgery or clinic, IF you decided to follow their advice.
Don't wanna follow it?? Nothing happens.... nothing at all.
You obviously chose to ignore my other post. Typical of you.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 12:34:44 PM   
LiveSpark


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/25/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
All of those are "penalties" are forms of state-sanctioned violence to ensure compliance with laws and regulations.

Nope, not violence.
And breaking a law and getting due process does not involve guns and unless you want to go screaming and kicking, there isn't usually any violence either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
If you do not want to take the doctor's advise then what does: "close monitoring to ensure they are eating better and exercising more" mean?

Any moron would realize this would ONLY happen, at your doctor's surgery or clinic, IF you decided to follow their advice.
Don't wanna follow it?? Nothing happens.... nothing at all.
You obviously chose to ignore my other post. Typical of you.



Well no there IS one thing that happens, the patient gets sick - or at least is at risk of becoming ill. BUT as you say that is entirely the choice of the patient(s) their doctor cannot force them to do anything.


_____________________________

I've been here as MontrealPhoenix, zephyr and
TheFireWithinMe.

I also have the sarcasm gene which is NOT to be taken seriously.

If you fall I'll always be there to catch you ~ Floor

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 12:38:42 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
An alarming number of people don't listen to anyone. They aren't singling out doctors.

Hey I'm just responding to those who think that there will magically be compliance if this is done by doctors. It simply isn't true.

I think that several of us are questioning how compliance with diet and exercise is going to be ensured.
"close monitoring to ensure they are eating better and exercising more."
How is that going to be done?

They can't, noone can including doctors. There are those who will and those who won't. So the use of the word ensure is unfortunate, perhaps to make it seem they are going to do more than they actually will/can.


Here we are, 5 pages into the thread, and there is finally someone else getting the point that the whole contentious point of the OP was how it was going to be "ensured."

"close monitoring to ensure they are eating better and exercising more"

That phrase, can be damn scary. Regardless of FD's assertion that the government has nothing to do with health care except to pay for it, you have the directive to "identify" those that have gained weight. To whom are they going to be identified? A Dr. is going to identify his patient to himself?

It sure seems like the NHS wants GP's to identify patients who are gaining weight to the NHS. While it may be benign (it would likely be abused in the US), it's still government intruding on a person's health care, doesn't it?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to LiveSpark)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 12:39:50 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
All of those are "penalties" are forms of state-sanctioned violence to ensure compliance with laws and regulations.

Nope, not violence.
And breaking a law and getting due process does not involve guns and unless you want to go screaming and kicking, there isn't usually any violence either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
If you do not want to take the doctor's advise then what does: "close monitoring to ensure they are eating better and exercising more" mean?

Any moron would realize this would ONLY happen, at your doctor's surgery or clinic, IF you decided to follow their advice.
Don't wanna follow it?? Nothing happens.... nothing at all.
You obviously chose to ignore my other post. Typical of you.



Well no there IS one thing that happens, the patient gets sick - or at least is at risk of becoming ill. BUT as you say that is entirely the choice of the patient(s) their doctor cannot force them to do anything.


Very true!!
And even if/when they do get sick - the systems pays for anything they need to get better.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to LiveSpark)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 12:44:14 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Nothing - if you don't get caught.


Come on fd this is bad even for you.
No matter what you do nothing happens to you if you don't get caught.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 12:44:19 PM   
LiveSpark


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/25/2014
Status: offline 		"Very true!!
And even if/when they do get sick - the systems pays for anything they need to get better. "

Exactly. I don't know where all this panic about being "forced" to comply or magic ability of doctors to get their patients to comply comes from. It's entirely within the power of the patients to decide whether to comply or not.

_____________________________

I've been here as MontrealPhoenix, zephyr and
TheFireWithinMe.

I also have the sarcasm gene which is NOT to be taken seriously.

If you fall I'll always be there to catch you ~ Floor

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 12:46:47 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		If they don't leave when invited to do so they are reported for trespassing on school property and are more than likely to be escorted off the premises by the police.


FD
Then the police constitute state-sanctioned violence.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 12:51:08 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
All of those are "penalties" are forms of state-sanctioned violence to ensure compliance with laws and regulations.

Nope, not violence.
And breaking a law and getting due process does not involve guns and unless you want to go screaming and kicking, there isn't usually any violence either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
If you do not want to take the doctor's advise then what does: "close monitoring to ensure they are eating better and exercising more" mean?

Any moron would realize this would ONLY happen, at your doctor's surgery or clinic, IF you decided to follow their advice.
Don't wanna follow it?? Nothing happens.... nothing at all.
You obviously chose to ignore my other post. Typical of you.


You are the only one to mention guns.
You also don't seemed to comprehend that state sanctioned force can take many forms, even fines are backed by the states ability to use any level of force they deem necessary.
If it only happens at the doctors office who are they reporting the weight gains to and why?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 100
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