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RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 1:03:54 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
An alarming number of people don't listen to anyone. They aren't singling out doctors.

Hey I'm just responding to those who think that there will magically be compliance if this is done by doctors. It simply isn't true.

I think that several of us are questioning how compliance with diet and exercise is going to be ensured.
"close monitoring to ensure they are eating better and exercising more."
How is that going to be done?

They can't, noone can including doctors. There are those who will and those who won't. So the use of the word ensure is unfortunate, perhaps to make it seem they are going to do more than they actually will/can.


Here we are, 5 pages into the thread, and there is finally someone else getting the point that the whole contentious point of the OP was how it was going to be "ensured."

"close monitoring to ensure they are eating better and exercising more"

That phrase, can be damn scary. Regardless of FD's assertion that the government has nothing to do with health care except to pay for it, you have the directive to "identify" those that have gained weight. To whom are they going to be identified? A Dr. is going to identify his patient to himself?

It sure seems like the NHS wants GP's to identify patients who are gaining weight to the NHS. While it may be benign (it would likely be abused in the US), it's still government intruding on a person's health care, doesn't it?


Yes... that directive is to make professional notes on the patients records by the doctor.
The whole idea of that is for the locum or any other doctor to be aware that the patient has been advised about their weight gain and that they have been advised to do something about it and also whatever follow-up actions have been taken thus far.
It is also of great benefit when a patient is seeing another doctor, either temporarily (whilst away from home) or are in the process of relocating.
The government have nothing to do with the info being recorded, nor do the NHS in general.

In the US, that info would be abused by private insurance companies to wriggle out of payments by adding to the exclusions in the policy.
Because we don't have that problem, the info is just for doctors and other medical staff to be aware of.

It is basically allowing for continuity of patient information regardless of where that patient is or which medical professional they are seeing at the time.
Many doctors are diligent and record it all anyway, others are not so diligent in what they record.
A good example would be if you were referred to a dietician and/or occupational therapist for treatment.
Each element would provide reports to the patient's doctor and their findings/progress can be recorded in the confidential records.
That way, if a certain type of procedure or diet or whatever didn't work for that particular patient, the next dietician/therapist knows what has been tried and what the results were.

Do I have to keep stressing that patient confidentiality is not compromised??
Nobody is reporting anything to anyone except personal records being recorded by the patient's doctor.
The government and the NHS are not involved in keeping or maintaining these records.

And the word "ensured" that people are picking on, was a bit of a misnomer and a bad choice.
Nothing is ever "ensured" at all, by anyone, in any sense of the word.
Monitored (if they participate) and recorded, yes.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 1:06:17 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
You are the only one to mention guns.
You also don't seemed to comprehend that state sanctioned force can take many forms, even fines are backed by the states ability to use any level of force they deem necessary.

Not here they can't.
Maybe they can in the US - but not here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
If it only happens at the doctors office who are they reporting the weight gains to and why?

Try reading my posts for a change.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 1:16:34 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Not here they can't.
Maybe they can in the US - but not here.

FD
So all fine payments are voluntary?
If not how do they make people pay them?
If they can't use the level of force they think is needed how do they "escort" someone from a school if they don't want to go?
Can you really be that stupid?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 1:16:38 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

If they don't leave when invited to do so they are reported for trespassing on school property and are more than likely to be escorted off the premises by the police.


FD
Then the police constitute state-sanctioned violence.

And it is derailing the thread!!

How many more times do I have to say - NOT VIOLENCE!!

You are verbally asked to leave. And repeated again if you do not comply.
Are you now saying that a repeat order from a police officer is now considered "violence"??

If you don't leave, you are then not only breaking the law but disobeying a direct police command.
IF you are a dumbass and start kicking off instead of following police orders, you will be arrested.
Your actions of disobeyance become a separate issue to the original infringement.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 1:20:05 PM   
LiveSpark


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/25/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
An alarming number of people don't listen to anyone. They aren't singling out doctors.

Hey I'm just responding to those who think that there will magically be compliance if this is done by doctors. It simply isn't true.

I think that several of us are questioning how compliance with diet and exercise is going to be ensured.
"close monitoring to ensure they are eating better and exercising more."
How is that going to be done?

They can't, noone can including doctors. There are those who will and those who won't. So the use of the word ensure is unfortunate, perhaps to make it seem they are going to do more than they actually will/can.


Here we are, 5 pages into the thread, and there is finally someone else getting the point that the whole contentious point of the OP was how it was going to be "ensured."

"close monitoring to ensure they are eating better and exercising more"

That phrase, can be damn scary. Regardless of FD's assertion that the government has nothing to do with health care except to pay for it, you have the directive to "identify" those that have gained weight. To whom are they going to be identified? A Dr. is going to identify his patient to himself?

It sure seems like the NHS wants GP's to identify patients who are gaining weight to the NHS. While it may be benign (it would likely be abused in the US), it's still government intruding on a person's health care, doesn't it?



First of all, finally? I've been saying this all along. All anyone, doctor or government can do is notify patients and SUGGEST ways to avoid getting sick the rest is up to the patient(s). And that's all this initiative is about. No scary forcing no scary sanctions...just recommendations.

_____________________________

I've been here as MontrealPhoenix, zephyr and
TheFireWithinMe.

I also have the sarcasm gene which is NOT to be taken seriously.

If you fall I'll always be there to catch you ~ Floor

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 1:20:41 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Not here they can't.
Maybe they can in the US - but not here.

FD
So all fine payments are voluntary?
If not how do they make people pay them?
If they can't use the level of force they think is needed how do they "escort" someone from a school if they don't want to go?
Can you really be that stupid?

Nope. Who said anything about fine payments??
They are enforced by the courts and the bailiffs.

Most people are "escorted" by gentle persuasion of voice and maybe being gently pushed by the elbows.
FFS!! C'mon bama, stop being soo fucking obtuse and stupid!

And yet again - you are derailing the thread.
This has nothing what-so-fucking-ever to do with doctors advising patients when they notice patients are gaining weight.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 1:26:21 PM   
LiveSpark


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/25/2014
Status: offline 		Why do you bother FD? You seem to be an intelligent guy, it's clear he hasn't read either the article or anyone's posts. You're just wasting your time.

_____________________________

I've been here as MontrealPhoenix, zephyr and
TheFireWithinMe.

I also have the sarcasm gene which is NOT to be taken seriously.

If you fall I'll always be there to catch you ~ Floor

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 1:29:39 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark

Why do you bother FD? You seem to be an intelligent guy, it's clear he hasn't read either the article or anyone's posts. You're just wasting your time.

Yeah I know.
But someone has to make some sort of effort somewhere along the line.

_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to LiveSpark)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 1:30:19 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
An alarming number of people don't listen to anyone. They aren't singling out doctors.

Hey I'm just responding to those who think that there will magically be compliance if this is done by doctors. It simply isn't true.

I think that several of us are questioning how compliance with diet and exercise is going to be ensured.
"close monitoring to ensure they are eating better and exercising more."
How is that going to be done?

They can't, noone can including doctors. There are those who will and those who won't. So the use of the word ensure is unfortunate, perhaps to make it seem they are going to do more than they actually will/can.


Here we are, 5 pages into the thread, and there is finally someone else getting the point that the whole contentious point of the OP was how it was going to be "ensured."

"close monitoring to ensure they are eating better and exercising more"

That phrase, can be damn scary. Regardless of FD's assertion that the government has nothing to do with health care except to pay for it, you have the directive to "identify" those that have gained weight. To whom are they going to be identified? A Dr. is going to identify his patient to himself?

It sure seems like the NHS wants GP's to identify patients who are gaining weight to the NHS. While it may be benign (it would likely be abused in the US), it's still government intruding on a person's health care, doesn't it?




Well DS, from this thread this is what I have concluded:

People in the UK are completely unaware that lots of weight gain, unhealthy eating, and a lack of exercise are bad things that can lead to Type 2 diabetes.

Now that they have learned this, doctors are going to start alerting their patients about it and give some advice. They will also let themselves know that they have done this. Because apparently they have NOT been letting their patients know that diet and exercise were important to their health.

And while the NHS states that there will be: "close monitoring to ensure they are eating better and exercising more," this is in fact not true. What it really means is that people will have the option of following the doctor's advice.

Since the NHS has just discovered the link between being fat and Type 2 diabetes, do you think we should send them some information on penicillin and the Polio vaccine?


_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 1:46:54 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		Oh dear Aylee. What a numbskull you are at times.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Well DS, from this thread this is what I have concluded:

People in the UK are completely unaware that lots of weight gain, unhealthy eating, and a lack of exercise are bad things that can lead to Type 2 diabetes.

Wrong!! We, and our doctors, have known for decades.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Now that they have learned this, doctors are going to start alerting their patients about it and give some advice.

They have always done that right off the bat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
They will also let themselves know that they have done this. Because apparently they have NOT been letting their patients know that diet and exercise were important to their health.

Try reading what I posted - not your own spin on it.
It is for recording FOR OTHER HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONALS, not the patient. DUH!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
And while the NHS states that there will be: "close monitoring to ensure they are eating better and exercising more," this is in fact not true. What it really means is that people will have the option of following the doctor's advice.

That has always been the case with ANY professional advice.
You want to spin it in an otherwise direction.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Since the NHS has just discovered the link between being fat and Type 2 diabetes, do you think we should send them some information on penicillin and the Polio vaccine?

Too late
We found out from Pasteur long before you lot did!!
You're a bit behind.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 1:50:45 PM   
LiveSpark


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/25/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark

Why do you bother FD? You seem to be an intelligent guy, it's clear he hasn't read either the article or anyone's posts. You're just wasting your time.

Yeah I know.
But someone has to make some sort of effort somewhere along the line.


And sometimes it's a lost cause. Save yourself and what's left of your sanity you're worth it!!!

_____________________________

I've been here as MontrealPhoenix, zephyr and
TheFireWithinMe.

I also have the sarcasm gene which is NOT to be taken seriously.

If you fall I'll always be there to catch you ~ Floor

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 1:53:57 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Oh dear Aylee. What a numbskull you are at times.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Well DS, from this thread this is what I have concluded:

People in the UK are completely unaware that lots of weight gain, unhealthy eating, and a lack of exercise are bad things that can lead to Type 2 diabetes.

Wrong!! We, and our doctors, have known for decades.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Now that they have learned this, doctors are going to start alerting their patients about it and give some advice.

They have always done that right off the bat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
They will also let themselves know that they have done this. Because apparently they have NOT been letting their patients know that diet and exercise were important to their health.

Try reading what I posted - not your own spin on it.
It is for recording FOR OTHER HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONALS, not the patient. DUH!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
And while the NHS states that there will be: "close monitoring to ensure they are eating better and exercising more," this is in fact not true. What it really means is that people will have the option of following the doctor's advice.

That has always been the case with ANY professional advice.
You want to spin it in an otherwise direction.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Since the NHS has just discovered the link between being fat and Type 2 diabetes, do you think we should send them some information on penicillin and the Polio vaccine?

Too late
We found out from Pasteur long before you lot did!!
You're a bit behind.



So what is "New" about this program the NHS is unveiling?

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 2:12:40 PM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

So what is "New" about this program the NHS is unveiling?


What's new is the support system being made available to people. No more kid gloves or skirting around the issues of someone being overweight. They will be told and they will be offered a support system which they can take or leave.

The same happened here for smokers a few years ago and its helped a great many people stop. GP's are great supporters of people trying to give up tobacco and the system that has been put in place for those who genuinely want to try and give up is fantastic. If they can do the same for obesity that they have done for smokers, I give this a high five.

For years I've been saying that the NHS needs to catch on to the rest of Europe and start being more pro active regarding preventative medicine. Preventative medicine is good, preventative medicine saves lives and preventative medicine guarantees that people will live longer.



_____________________________

My store is http://e-stimstore.com

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 2:22:00 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
So what is "New" about this program the NHS is unveiling?

From what I understand from my own doctor, it is about consistency in recording such events and any prognosis/action that may have followed.
See my post#101.

In the US, your private insurance company shares info with your doctor and the hospitals in determining what happened, what qualifies, what gets excluded and what they are going to pay for.
If you are in a different state, whoever you see as a locum or temporary doctor, or have to visit ER, they are working blind because they don't know your history.
If you relocate to somewhere outside of the coverage area for your insurance company, you have to fill in forms and such or wait some time for your previous insurance company to cough up your records.

In our social system here, it's all under one roof - loosely termed the NHS.
Individual patient records are recorded and kept by the patients doctor; not a central government database or department.
If you relocate, your records are sent to a central office for redirection to the new doctor.
And because it's all internal, it is usually very quick.
On top of that, if urgent info is needed by a hospital or another doctor, that can be gained electronically from the last registered doctor within moments.

The whole point of the new directive is to make things as electronically compatible and as full as they can be, regardless of which electronic system the info is kept on or transferred to.
Until recently, just about every hospital and doctor surgery and clinic all had their own individual systems and in most cases, not all the info was "transportable" across all of them.
A lot of those older systems have now been replaced with newer and (almost) fully compatible systems so that the new info can be imported from one system to the other.

The point being, anything a patient does that is likely to (or does) impinge upon their overall health, that information can be recorded in their personal files.
The latest health drive is to watch for obesity and/or rapid weight gain in order to advise patients about diabetes, cancer, and other disorders and what treatments are available for them to avoid such nasties if at all possible.

As has already been mentioned, preventative medicine is much cheaper than a cure.
So.... if someone ends up in ER for something completely unrelated, their records of any special diets or other medications they are prescribed can be called up from almost anywhere.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 2:40:53 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
Do all you anti-government types regard Edward Snowden as a HERO. It seems you would after reading through this thread.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 2:56:57 PM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		If you are admitted to hospital in the UK with an illness that could be related to your obesity, you are offered advice regarding your weight as well as a support system to help you lose the lbs. All they are doing is offering that support and advice before you're admitted into hospital.

_____________________________

My store is http://e-stimstore.com

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 3:41:35 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
Making dinner, I was thinking about this thread and wondering:

(1) Do people really want the "free market" to set national health care policy?

(2) If the government doesn't set/promote national policies, who should?

(3) Was this issue pulled off the Drudge Report?

(in reply to MariaB)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 4:50:40 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

So, since you are in the UK can you tell us all how the "close monitoring to ensure they are eating better and exercising more," is going to work?

How does the government ENSURE healthy eating and exercising?


I will explain it, just as soon as you show me anywhere were the government has said they are going to ensure fuck all, let alone made it compulsory. Hardly any point me educating you on UK matters when you cant even follow your shock horrow story for what it actually is.

Your big problem is, you cant even read the link in your own fucking OP properly.

If you knew fuck all about fuck all, this is an idea put forward by Simon Stevens, who is Chief Executive of NHS England. Just for fun, do you know much about that giant United Health Group, the American firm that Stevens was President of ? Do you know anything about the gropus diabetes health plan, do you wonder where Stevens may have got this idea from in the first place ?

http://www.unitedhealthgroup.com/newsroom/articles/news/unitedhealthcare/2013/0110uhcstudydiabetes.aspx

While the NHS isnt run by the Government per se, it (NHS) doesnt set government policy. YOUR link and therefore the crap you spew as UK policy, is just an idea put forward by Stevens. Do you need a grown up to join all the dots for you ?

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 4:55:14 PM   
LiveSpark


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/25/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

So, since you are in the UK can you tell us all how the "close monitoring to ensure they are eating better and exercising more," is going to work?

How does the government ENSURE healthy eating and exercising?


I will explain it, just as soon as you show me anywhere were the government has said they are going to ensure fuck all, let alone made it compulsory. Hardly any point me educating you on UK matters when you cant even follow your shock horrow story for what it actually is.

Your big problem is, you cant even read the link in your own fucking OP properly.

If you knew fuck all about fuck all, this is an idea put forward by Simon Stevens, who is Chief Executive of NHS England. Just for fun, do you know much about that giant United Health Group, the American firm that Stevens was President of ? Do you know anything about the gropus diabetes health plan, do you wonder where Stevens may have got this idea from in the first place ?

http://www.unitedhealthgroup.com/newsroom/articles/news/unitedhealthcare/2013/0110uhcstudydiabetes.aspx

While the NHS isnt run by the Government per se, it (NHS) doesnt set government policy. YOUR link and therefore the crap you spew as UK policy, is just an idea put forward by Stevens. Do you need a grown up to join all the dots for you ?



Collarchat hasn't seen fit to add a "like" button so

Edited to try to add thumbs up icon which won't work

< Message edited by LiveSpark -- 12/27/2014 5:09:01 PM >

_____________________________

I've been here as MontrealPhoenix, zephyr and
TheFireWithinMe.

I also have the sarcasm gene which is NOT to be taken seriously.

If you fall I'll always be there to catch you ~ Floor

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Doctors told to report patients who put on weight - 12/27/2014 5:00:31 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Seriously. . .? The great democracy of the UK just outlawed pay for porn with female ejaculation and face sitting. However, raping and drugging young girls is still A-Okay (if you are Muslim.)

Of course my concern here is still: How are they going to ensure compliance? I have yet to see an answer to that. Just poo-pooing the question.


Any links to substantiate any of this offensive bollocks ? All that took place was porn films produced INSDIE the UK have to apply by the same laws

You dont have any concern except to try and show how smart you think you are. Rape and drugging of anyone in the UK is a criminal offence, so dont give me any of your Islamophobic bullshit disguised by crocodile tears.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 120
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