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RE: A Society Of Bystanders - 12/29/2014 11:19:43 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


So the root problem has nothing to do with the police. You're going to get team-ism whenever you create a team. The thing to do, then, is to make the team as inclusive as possible. So: what team do we have that includes almost all citizens, and that could reveals the us against them debate as everybody against the criminals? Yeah, you guessed it in one--the militia.

Policing was, after all, a core function of the militia. I can't help but notice that a sheriff's power of Posse Comitatus traditionally allowed for him to call out a broader age range of people than even served in the militia. They are the most inclusive teams we have ever had in the US.

So it seems to me that you can use the us against them mentality by co-opting it, and returning to an age where law enforcement is everybody's responsibility. You enroll everyone in the militia, you give every jurisdiction a sheriff whose main functions will be training and investigative, and then you use a duty roster system for calling out portions of the militia on a daily/weekly/whatever basis to do the community policing. Everything that uniformed officers currently do becomes a militia function, and everything detectives currently do remains a function of a small, plain clothes investigative force that has no powers of arrest--arrests are performed by the sheriff with a posse.

Yeah, it sounds radical and anachronistic, but the reason it worked is because it puts everybody on the same team.



I realize that your phone (or whatever device you're using) is fucking with your message but the "Posse Comitatus" has nothing to do with the old frontier justice. It's a prohibition of the federal government from using federal forces to do "policing" within US territory.

Of course, that one's been dwindled down for decades also but that's what it is.



Michael


No. Posse Comitatus is Latin for "force of the county."

The Posse Comitatus Act just says that you cannot use the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps for it.

As far as "frontier justice" goes, an elected official was supplemented by the local militia and it was only later that policing became a particular trade. It is after the Civil War happened that sheriffs and their helpers became paramilitary.

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RE: A Society Of Bystanders - 12/29/2014 11:30:19 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonicGynoid

Of course. Always call the police first, but if you hear things getting real bad you should act.


That is pretty much the 7th Peelian principle:

To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

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RE: A Society Of Bystanders - 12/29/2014 11:50:44 PM   
DaddySatyr


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Not so much.

Of course, I'm assuming that you were talking about our laws; not just typing in Latin.

I repeat: It had NOTHING WHAT-SO-EVER to do with a sheriff, swearing in the local town folk to go find cattle rustlers.



Michael

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RE: A Society Of Bystanders - 12/30/2014 12:10:01 AM   
epiphiny43


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Status: offline 		Posse comitatus is the common-law or statute law authority of a county sheriff, or other law officer, to conscript any able-bodied man to assist him in keeping the peace or to pursue and arrest a felon, similar to the concept of the "hue and cry."
Posse comitatus (common law) - Wikipedia, the free ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_comitatus_(common_law)
Wikipedia
(Posse Comitatus. [Latin, Power of the county.] Referred at Common Law to all males over the age of fifteen on whom a sheriff could call for assistance in ...) Note, Power of the COUNTY, not COUNTRY.

Posse Comitatus Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act
The Posse Comitatus Act is the United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385, original at 20 Stat. 152) that was passed on June 18, 1878, after the end of Reconstruction and was updated in 1981.
(Saying as above post, EXCLUDING US armed forces from the posse comitatus common law use.)

Note they are two different things. One a specific act (law) by Congress, the other a common-law principle from before the establishment of the USA and continuing in most jurisdictions. Doesn't anybody look this stuff up before whacking away at keyboards and each other?

NOT in reply to a specific post, the notation doesn't edit out.

< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 12/30/2014 12:18:20 AM >

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RE: A Society Of Bystanders - 12/30/2014 5:35:06 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonicGynoid

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

^ what mike said. This isn't a "debate." Happy trolling.

At least your posts are shorter than when you were Cobalt. But pass just the same.

Once again, no one is telling me how I am trolling. The correct term is MISINFORMED!. If you are gonna call me wrong, get it right. I am NOT doing this intentionally. I bet you actually enjoy me being wrong. Thats why you wont correct me. You just give vague hints.


Ignore them

MM is the actual troll, you should have that much figured out by now

slvemike is sort of his brainless little hunchbacked Igor

On account of those two and a few others you have to be slightly thick skinned to post in this section

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RE: A Society Of Bystanders - 12/30/2014 6:11:15 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Yes, Sanity's the welcome wagon here, always kind and caring, always careful to be on topic rather than getting riled up in personalities and petty vendettas.

He's a saint, that one. A true blessing he's here to keep us all straight and loving.


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RE: A Society Of Bystanders - 12/30/2014 6:22:03 AM   
LiveSpark


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonicGynoid

Some people say we should get rid of the police. Perhaps, but, lets be honest, as we currently are right now, how many of us would actually go out of our way to stop a murder or rape ourselves? Most of us wouldnt (me included, though i want to try to change that), because we have become a society of bystanders, waiting for someone else to help. We need to be more vigilant. Thats why I am also against gun control, because if someone comes into my home, with the intent of harming me or my loved ones, I dont want to have to wait to be rescued. I want the option to defend myself and my loved ones.


The sad fact is that most people would rather stand there and film an attack and post it on Youtube than help the person who is being attacked. Then there is the well documented phenomenon (sorry I don't remember what it's called) in which how someone acts corresponds with how everyone else reacts. So in cases where there are a lot of people around the person being attacked stands a better chance if others step up, the problem being that someone has to step up in the first place.

Also there's not wanting to get involved which is sad. I don't think getting rid of the police is the answer however. Yes they don't always do their job but I think that they're existing deters people from committing crimes and things would be even worse if we didn't have them.

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RE: A Society Of Bystanders - 12/30/2014 6:31:20 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

most people would rather stand there and film an attack and post it on Youtube than help the person who is being attacked


What absolute rubbish. If you want to claim this represents 51% of people, prove it.

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RE: A Society Of Bystanders - 12/30/2014 6:56:47 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonicGynoid

Some people say we should get rid of the police. Perhaps, but, lets be honest, as we currently are right now, how many of us would actually go out of our way to stop a murder or rape ourselves? Most of us wouldnt (me included, though i want to try to change that), because we have become a society of bystanders, waiting for someone else to help. We need to be more vigilant. Thats why I am also against gun control, because if someone comes into my home, with the intent of harming me or my loved ones, I dont want to have to wait to be rescued. I want the option to defend myself and my loved ones.


I've been critical of the police in the past, but I've never said we should get rid of them. However, I think the reason we have become a society of bystanders is because that's how many of us have been taught and socialized in these times. We can't act as vigilantes or take the law into our own hands. That idea is drilled into us, even if people become enamored with people like Charles Bronson's character in Death Wish (although by the time it got to Death Wish 3, I was wishing the franchise would die).

On the other hand, I can say in all honesty that I've gotten through over a half century of life without actually "needing" the police in any significant way. In most cases when I've called them, it's usually because I needed a police report number for insurance purposes. It's not as if they actually solve crimes.

I've had a break in before with some stuff stolen, but the police came after the fact. They didn't prevent the burglary and didn't really do much investigating either. That's usually the case with most crimes anyway. The police come long after the crime is committed and then say there's nothing they can do.

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RE: A Society Of Bystanders - 12/30/2014 7:22:47 AM   
DemonicGynoid


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Joined: 12/17/2014
Status: offline 		I would like to point out that I, myself, do NOT think we should get rid of the police, but rather put them at a higher standard. make sure they know they serve us, not the other way around.

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RE: A Society Of Bystanders - 12/30/2014 8:21:33 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark

The sad fact is that most people would rather stand there and film an attack and post it on Youtube than help the person who is being attacked. Then there is the well documented phenomenon (sorry I don't remember what it's called) in which how someone acts corresponds with how everyone else reacts. So in cases where there are a lot of people around the person being attacked stands a better chance if others step up, the problem being that someone has to step up in the first place.

Also there's not wanting to get involved which is sad. I don't think getting rid of the police is the answer however. Yes they don't always do their job but I think that they're existing deters people from committing crimes and things would be even worse if we didn't have them.


Good observation, people dont care like they used to:

5 Things About Americans' Slipping Sense of Duty

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/things-americans-slipping-sense-duty-27879036

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RE: A Society Of Bystanders - 12/30/2014 8:22:50 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

most people would rather stand there and film an attack and post it on Youtube than help the person who is being attacked


What absolute rubbish. If you want to claim this represents 51% of people, prove it.


Most big city people, probably. Blue people...

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RE: A Society Of Bystanders - 12/30/2014 8:32:33 AM   
LiveSpark


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

most people would rather stand there and film an attack and post it on Youtube than help the person who is being attacked


What absolute rubbish. If you want to claim this represents 51% of people, prove it.


If you think I'm combing through millions of Youtube videos looking for proof you are mistaken. However there have been many cases of people being arrested and tried because they were stupid enough to film an attack and thought it would be cool to post their video on Youtube. Granted most have been young and stupid but they exist.

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RE: A Society Of Bystanders - 12/30/2014 8:48:28 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Then you don't understand the difference between anecdotes and data.

That they exist hardly equals "most."

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RE: A Society Of Bystanders - 12/30/2014 8:49:52 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

most people would rather stand there and film an attack and post it on Youtube than help the person who is being attacked


What absolute rubbish. If you want to claim this represents 51% of people, prove it.


Most big city people, probably. Blue people...

good thing you're not a troll.



And I didn't realize Republicans don't live in the cities. Must make Washington very uncomfortable for them.

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RE: A Society Of Bystanders - 12/30/2014 9:32:32 AM   
LiveSpark


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Then you don't understand the difference between anecdotes and data.

That they exist hardly equals "most."


I do understand the difference, thanks. I'm talking about the prosecution of people who saw an assault going on and did nothing, all captured on video and posted on Youtube. That is certainly more than anecdote it's fact.

_____________________________

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I also have the sarcasm gene which is NOT to be taken seriously.

If you fall I'll always be there to catch you ~ Floor

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RE: A Society Of Bystanders - 12/30/2014 9:33:19 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
As far as "frontier justice" goes, an elected official was supplemented by the local militia and it was only later that policing became a particular trade. It is after the Civil War happened that sheriffs and their helpers became paramilitary.

Well, no.

Among the first public police forces established in colonial North America were the watchmen organized in Boston in 1631 and in New Amsterdam (later New York City) in 1647. Watchmen were paid a fee in both Boston and New York.

In the frontier regions of the United States in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, there arose a novel form of the Saxon tradition of frankpledge: the vigilante, in areas where a formal justice system had yet to be established—lawlessness on behalf of lawfulness—and the question of when and where it degenerated into rank mob rule.

By the mid-19th century, middle-class frustration with the deterioration of the cities had led to the passage of laws regulating public behaviour and creating new public institutions of social control and coercion—penitentiaries, asylums, and police forces.

The first police department in the United States was established in New York City in 1844 (it was officially organized in 1845). Other cities soon followed suit: New Orleans and Cincinnati (Ohio) in 1852; Boston and Philadelphia in 1854; Chicago and Milwaukee (Wis.) in 1855; and Baltimore (Md.) and Newark (N.J.) in 1857. Those early departments all used the London Metropolitan Police as a model. Like the Metropolitan Police, American police were organized in a quasi-military command structure -- all BEFORE the US Civil War started in 1861.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/467289/police/36619/Early-police-in-the-United-States

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RE: A Society Of Bystanders - 12/30/2014 9:37:28 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonicGynoid

Apparently to some "millitia" is the same as "redneck racists with guns" while to me a good millitia would be "a group of people who look out for each and protect their neighborhood." with the gund mostly just being for the intimidation factor, though still be used as a last resort.

Neighborhood watch.

There's a world of difference between a neighborhood watch and a bunch of gun-totin' vigiliantes.

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RE: A Society Of Bystanders - 12/30/2014 9:38:44 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonicGynoid

Of course.

Seriously, why couldnt we have this just be the entire thread, instead of the accusations of me being a troll?

Because you and Bama are preaching to the choir, reinforcing each other's biases, rather than engaging outside of your personal beliefs.

That's why. It's a circle jerk.

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RE: A Society Of Bystanders - 12/30/2014 9:40:35 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonicGynoid


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

vigilantes does not mean the same as vigilant.

Not even close.

I never said it did.

So just out of curiosity--what's the difference in your world between vigilantes and a group of people carrying guns going about enforcing "justice" independently?

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