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RE: Kanasas to make it easier to have concealable weapons - 1/26/2015 11:25:49 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Of course I understand -- I've said it several times. AND that the law needs to go.

You've got nothing else, so you keep repeating the same thing.

AND, SECOND issue, they are actively suppressing a competitor's product.

AGAIN--totally understand why they would do that. Makes sense from THEIR perspective, totally.

What makes sense from the CONSUMERS' perspective is (1) choice without a restrictive law and (2) choice to buy what they want, without the NRA's suppression of what it's core oligarchy opposes for financial reasons.

I have to say that I think it's you who are mega-wrapped up in talking points and understand economics very poorly.

You have no evidence, only your bias, to show that if the law was repealed they wouldn't make smart guns, just like you "knew" S&W would fix the problem with their gun. All I am saying is the law has to be repealed before we can legitimately put the industry's feet to the fire on developing them. Without the law if there is a demand for smart guns they will meet the demand.
But the law has to go first.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Kanasas to make it easier to have concealable weapons - 1/26/2015 11:28:49 AM   
Musicmystery


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That's your speculation. We shall see.

If there's still a manufacturer left unsquashed.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Kanasas to make it easier to have concealable weapons - 1/26/2015 4:10:06 PM   
luckyd0g


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Hmm, this has turned into a pile of nonsense...

How exactly can the NRA prevent v a company from releasing a product? It seems like that is totally nonsensical position.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Kanasas to make it easier to have concealable weapons - 1/26/2015 4:17:44 PM   
Musicmystery


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Perhaps you should be better informed about issues of the day.

Lots of ways -- https://www.google.com/search?q=NRA+shuts+down+smart+gun+manufacturer&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

(in reply to luckyd0g)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Kanasas to make it easier to have concealable weapons - 1/26/2015 4:34:40 PM   
luckyd0g


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So you are afraid to actually answer. ...

A link to a Google page of left wing blogs, none of which back up your assertion.

So since you're babbling nonsense that you can not back up, Bama has pwned you big time.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Kanasas to make it easier to have concealable weapons - 1/28/2015 3:03:50 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Is it really a burden to carry a small and simple little note in the wallet? That people stated once that credit and debit cards would remove the need to carry money in the wallet. Yet, people have paper dollars right next to their credit and debit cards. So I ask in all honesty what the actual burden is?


Apparently, it's a burden to "carry a small and simple little note in the wallet" because we can't have people do that to vote...


Apparently the two concepts are entirely different. The one your referring to is a....DIRECT...violation of an amendment. What I'm explaining has no bearing on....ANOTHER....amendment. Oh, I'm sorry, is that to technical for you to grasp?


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Kanasas to make it easier to have concealable weapons - 1/28/2015 3:17:47 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
I do understand. And I disagree.

Fight the law. But fighting the gun is clearly anti-market. And not very 2nd Amendment either. Let people buy guns they want--and if they don't, the market will take care of it. But if they do, this is simply anti-capitalism to protect a vested market.

Here...have more kool-aid.

That is where you are wrong, people won't be able to buy the guns they want. Please tell me how, if one smart gun is available, you can buy anything else in NJ or CA and a couple of other states with those others banned in those states. The smart gun requirement is anti choice and anti 2nd no matter how many times you say otherwise. The gun that was going to go on sale was a bulky .22 that cost $1200. And it would have driven every other handgun off the market, not because people would have preferred it but because the law would have banned them. They can't put out the smart gun and let the market decide until it is the market and not politicians who decide.


Back at the start of the last century, automobiles could only be had by the richest of rich people in America. Then one automaker created a concept by which everyday Americans could obtain a car. In any color they wanted, just as long as it was black! At one time computers were massive and complex machines that took up whole rooms in the 1960's (an exceeding expensive). In 2015, the typical smartphone has more computing power at a fraction of the size and cost. At one time it would take months for a message to go from one side of the planet to a location that was very remote from civiilization (usually a hand/typewritten note). In 2015, people communication to the other side of the planet in 'real time' face to face meetings.

So if smartguns started off being few and very expensive, you would have us believe that it will forever remain so. Given the technology curve right now, with people 'jockeying' for that device to be very cheap to produce, is a gold mine waiting to be tapped. Fifteen to twenty years ago, people were learning how to use email; today there are more emails generated than the printed word.

From a technology and economics perspective, you really dont have an argument with smartgun technology. Legally, a smartgun would be safer then regular firearm in the home. The people that would push legislation to require smartgun purchases would not come from liberals, but insurance companies. Would be a curious battle, insurance lobbyist verse the NRA. The NRA would eventually lose is my best guess.

So 'yes', that firearm you mention costing $1200 now, in five years could be $200. In a dozen years later? Maybe a mere $30. Your going to tell me you couldn't afford a modification to a firearm that lowers your insurance bill by several hundred a year?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Kanasas to make it easier to have concealable weapons - 1/28/2015 5:30:00 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckyd0g

So you are afraid to actually answer. ...

A link to a Google page of left wing blogs, none of which back up your assertion.


Ah...no.

If you want to pretend it's not there, I probably can't help you.

(in reply to luckyd0g)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Kanasas to make it easier to have concealable weapons - 1/28/2015 9:27:59 AM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
I do understand. And I disagree.

Fight the law. But fighting the gun is clearly anti-market. And not very 2nd Amendment either. Let people buy guns they want--and if they don't, the market will take care of it. But if they do, this is simply anti-capitalism to protect a vested market.

Here...have more kool-aid.

That is where you are wrong, people won't be able to buy the guns they want. Please tell me how, if one smart gun is available, you can buy anything else in NJ or CA and a couple of other states with those others banned in those states. The smart gun requirement is anti choice and anti 2nd no matter how many times you say otherwise. The gun that was going to go on sale was a bulky .22 that cost $1200. And it would have driven every other handgun off the market, not because people would have preferred it but because the law would have banned them. They can't put out the smart gun and let the market decide until it is the market and not politicians who decide.


Back at the start of the last century, automobiles could only be had by the richest of rich people in America. Then one automaker created a concept by which everyday Americans could obtain a car. In any color they wanted, just as long as it was black! At one time computers were massive and complex machines that took up whole rooms in the 1960's (an exceeding expensive). In 2015, the typical smartphone has more computing power at a fraction of the size and cost. At one time it would take months for a message to go from one side of the planet to a location that was very remote from civiilization (usually a hand/typewritten note). In 2015, people communication to the other side of the planet in 'real time' face to face meetings.

So if smartguns started off being few and very expensive, you would have us believe that it will forever remain so. Given the technology curve right now, with people 'jockeying' for that device to be very cheap to produce, is a gold mine waiting to be tapped. Fifteen to twenty years ago, people were learning how to use email; today there are more emails generated than the printed word.

From a technology and economics perspective, you really dont have an argument with smartgun technology. Legally, a smartgun would be safer then regular firearm in the home. The people that would push legislation to require smartgun purchases would not come from liberals, but insurance companies. Would be a curious battle, insurance lobbyist verse the NRA. The NRA would eventually lose is my best guess.

So 'yes', that firearm you mention costing $1200 now, in five years could be $200. In a dozen years later? Maybe a mere $30. Your going to tell me you couldn't afford a modification to a firearm that lowers your insurance bill by several hundred a year?

You miss my point completely. I do not oppose the development of smart guns. The thing that creates the problem is laws that ban everything else.
You must be a little behind, the laws have already been passed in CA, NJ, and a couple of other states that say that that $1200 .22 going on the market would ban all other handguns period. Thus it kills the need for makers of smart guns to create the advances you predict. Repeal the laws and lets see what happens. PS I already know all that history, but it only happened because of competition not because of regulation.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 1/28/2015 10:08:14 AM >


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Kanasas to make it easier to have concealable weapons - 1/28/2015 9:35:32 AM   
Musicmystery


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And reality is, smart guns and smart gun technology are moving forward in other countries. Unless US manufacturers want to become the Detroit of the 21st century, they'd be wise not to repeat Detroit's mistakes and arrogance during the 70s, when they did in fact dominate world markets, only to lose them by not making what people wanted to buy.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Kanasas to make it easier to have concealable weapons - 1/28/2015 10:13:39 AM   
lovmuffin


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FR
The smart gun concept started around 20 years ago as a result of cops getting shot with their own guns. To this day, the cops don't want them and neither do civilians nor would they buy them even if they were cheap. There are a few working prototypes but they're not ready for the market nor would they be profitable. They're merely an expensive curiosity for wealthy people to play around with.

< Message edited by lovmuffin -- 1/28/2015 10:14:43 AM >


_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Kanasas to make it easier to have concealable weapons - 1/28/2015 10:20:18 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

FR
The smart gun concept started around 20 years ago as a result of cops getting shot with their own guns. To this day, the cops don't want them and neither do civilians nor would they buy them even if they were cheap. There are a few working prototypes but they're not ready for the market nor would they be profitable. They're merely an expensive curiosity for wealthy people to play around with.

And an excuse to ban "dumb" guns.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Kanasas to make it easier to have concealable weapons - 1/28/2015 10:24:52 AM   
Musicmystery


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There's that knee-jerk defensive "oh-no-they're-banning-my-guns" character you keep pretending you're not.


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Kanasas to make it easier to have concealable weapons - 1/28/2015 10:26:26 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

FR
The smart gun concept started around 20 years ago as a result of cops getting shot with their own guns. To this day, the cops don't want them and neither do civilians nor would they buy them even if they were cheap. There are a few working prototypes but they're not ready for the market nor would they be profitable. They're merely an expensive curiosity for wealthy people to play around with.

Nonetheless, they're coming in foreign markets.

And yet again, the US will be caught pantsed in a competition they could have dominated instead (and dictated to).

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Kanasas to make it easier to have concealable weapons - 1/28/2015 10:28:45 AM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

FR
The smart gun concept started around 20 years ago as a result of cops getting shot with their own guns. To this day, the cops don't want them and neither do civilians nor would they buy them even if they were cheap. There are a few working prototypes but they're not ready for the market nor would they be profitable. They're merely an expensive curiosity for wealthy people to play around with.

And an excuse to ban "dumb" guns.

I say this because they have already passed the laws, so it is not a projection of what I fear they will do, it is an accomplished fact.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 1/28/2015 10:29:33 AM >


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Kanasas to make it easier to have concealable weapons - 1/28/2015 10:47:59 AM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

FR
The smart gun concept started around 20 years ago as a result of cops getting shot with their own guns. To this day, the cops don't want them and neither do civilians nor would they buy them even if they were cheap. There are a few working prototypes but they're not ready for the market nor would they be profitable. They're merely an expensive curiosity for wealthy people to play around with.

Nonetheless, they're coming in foreign markets.

And yet again, the US will be caught pantsed in a competition they could have dominated instead (and dictated to).


I kind of doubt there will be a whole lot of competition in the US market. I mean for $30 or $50 I might buy one for fun but it wouldn't be my go to gun for anything that required reliability.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Kanasas to make it easier to have concealable weapons - 1/28/2015 11:02:13 AM   
Musicmystery


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I haven't seen anything that suggests the "unreliability" is anything other than an NRA talking point.

The closest I've seen to any actual objections are the typical tin-foil anti-government types fearing the government would "shut off" their guns, and the rather lame "someone will figure out how to defeat it" fallacy.

Are there real, demonstrable reliability issues with supporting data? I'd love to hear if there are.


http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/editorials/2014/05/13/smart-guns-progress-thwarted-noxious-politics/35fMYGN7AosqoBPk9elV4K/story.html --

Imagine a gun that could never be turned against you by an intruder, a gun that would never go off in the hands of a child, a gun that would be useless as a paperweight if it were stolen. In fact, that technology is already here. From the German-made Armatix iP1, which only works if the shooter is wearing a special wristwatch, to the Utah-made Intelligun, which is unlocked by fingerprints, so-called “smart guns” or “personalized guns” are poised to transform the gun industry. Expect them to get even smarter in the years to come: Ron Conway, an angel investor in Google and Facebook, recently announced a $1 million prize for the best new safety technology.



And here's the "debate" of some folks:

gun stores in Maryland and California received a flurry of death threats after stocking the Armatix iP1. Both stores quickly stopped selling it


It's clear why criminals would oppose smart guns. It's not clear--beyond the NRA's fund-raising-friendly-frenzy--why anyone else would.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/28/2015 11:06:28 AM >

(in reply to lovmuffin)
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RE: Kanasas to make it easier to have concealable weapons - 1/28/2015 11:02:46 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

FR
The smart gun concept started around 20 years ago as a result of cops getting shot with their own guns. To this day, the cops don't want them and neither do civilians nor would they buy them even if they were cheap. There are a few working prototypes but they're not ready for the market nor would they be profitable. They're merely an expensive curiosity for wealthy people to play around with.

And an excuse to ban "dumb" guns.

I say this because they have already passed the laws, so it is not a projection of what I fear they will do, it is an accomplished fact.



What laws have the passed?


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Kanasas to make it easier to have concealable weapons - 1/28/2015 11:53:38 AM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

Musicmystery
I haven't seen anything that suggests the "unreliability" is anything other than an NRA talking point.............It's clear why criminals would oppose smart guns. It's not clear--beyond the NRA's fund-raising-friendly-frenzy--why anyone else would.


I'm suggesting it. I'm not exactly ignorant on the subject. There are enough things on even the most reliable firearms that have been known to fail. Now add more componants and batteries to the mix and it's just more stuff that can fail. I'm not going to do the research for you. You can have your misguided biased opinion. While my opinion may be somewhat biased it's not misguided. If ya really want to know why anyone would appose smart guns, try googling *reliability of smart guns*.

< Message edited by lovmuffin -- 1/28/2015 11:59:48 AM >


_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Kanasas to make it easier to have concealable weapons - 1/28/2015 12:01:42 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

FR
The smart gun concept started around 20 years ago as a result of cops getting shot with their own guns. To this day, the cops don't want them and neither do civilians nor would they buy them even if they were cheap. There are a few working prototypes but they're not ready for the market nor would they be profitable. They're merely an expensive curiosity for wealthy people to play around with.

And an excuse to ban "dumb" guns.

I say this because they have already passed the laws, so it is not a projection of what I fear they will do, it is an accomplished fact.



What laws have the passed?



See post #106

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 160
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