RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES?

RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (Full Version)

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vincentML -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 8:32:06 PM)
Hi Michael! Sorry it took me so long to reply. Had to go out for the evening. quote: I don't believe that Sen. McCain being an elected official negates his right to speak his mind. I do think that his being an elected official amplifies his voice (he's in the spotlight) and allows for possible consequences for him. McCain uses the immunity granted to him by standing in a Senate hearing room and calls fellow citizens vile names. He brings disgrace and indignity to high elected office. He is a war monger who cares not to know the consequences of our killing machines on other human beings. Once a war hero; now a coward. quote: "All wars are crimes" Then you believe there are no just wars? How can you condone our participation in foreign interventions if all wars are criminal? quote: Another branch of government? Not just "No" but "HELL NO!!!" We have courts martial to handle accusations of war crimes. Courts martial do not apply to civilian leadership, Michael. quote: We can only wish. I think the water is always very muddy, when we try to distinguish between national interests and intervention in the internal affairs of another sovereign nation. Military power corrupts. Only nations with military power and global reach intervene in the internal affair of weaker sovereign nations. Isn't that a form of 21st Century colonialism? The weaker nations are not truly sovereign, are they? How many intervener nations are there? You can count them on one hand. No? quote: I think, a good portion of our actions since WW2 were arrived at because of our membership in the UN. I think that we should be a sovereign nation, beholden only to our own national interests and decide for ourselves if military action is necessary. Check me on this. I think the last time we went to war with the approval of the UN was in Korea. Since then we have acted as a sovereign nation, meddling and trampling in foreign lands of our on volition. Don't you agree?

vincentML -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 8:48:39 PM)
quote: I believe that it is unethical to physically threaten old men with broken bones. Pol Pot would be 90. If he was in our custody, yes it would be wrong to physically threaten him or allow him to be threatened. Execution would be fine. Kissinger was never physically threatened. that is an obvious exaggeration. but okay. Next time we will use unbroken bones. They will have greater impact. So, you would be okay with execution of Kissinger? quote: You think that it took Kissinger to whip up blood lust in humans? I never said that. I pointed out very specific historical events which followed upon the authority of Henry Kissinger, which proceeded to unimaginable horrors for which he should be held accountable. By your reasoning was Israel wrong in executing Eichmann since 'bloodlust' did not originate in human history with him? The problem here is that Americans do not wish to see what terrible things are done to human beings in our name. We can remain in a blissful state of denial instead of looking at the very human suffering we cause especially, imo, to people of color. Be making the victims invisible we dehumanize them and waive away their personal disasters with great indifference. The Prince was counseled on how to deal with enemies of consequence. Kissinger rained terror down upon people who posed no threat to our sovereignty. A despicable difference.

vincentML -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 8:56:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Vincent the only elaboration you need is history...Without the US there is no power in their judgments...If there should be a hint of a judgement directly against a US President or legislature I believe a threat behind the scenes of abandonment of the UN and the US financing would end any such nonsense...even if valid. Butch Butch, that is why the American people need to become awake to what needless terror and killing is done in our name. Our problem; our solution, since our government is too cowardly to stand before an international tribunal. Let's face it, in all our international endeavors we assume we are the good guys. We see the world in a Manichean tableau of Good verses Evil and we are always Good. Always have been, always will be. And then we wring our hands and cry out: Why do they hate us so? How can we be so blind?

BamaD -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 9:12:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Hi Michael! Sorry it took me so long to reply. Had to go out for the evening. quote: I don't believe that Sen. McCain being an elected official negates his right to speak his mind. I do think that his being an elected official amplifies his voice (he's in the spotlight) and allows for possible consequences for him. McCain uses the immunity granted to him by standing in a Senate hearing room and calls fellow citizens vile names. He brings disgrace and indignity to high elected office. He is a war monger who cares not to know the consequences of our killing machines on other human beings. Once a war hero; now a coward. quote: "All wars are crimes" Then you believe there are no just wars? How can you condone our participation in foreign interventions if all wars are criminal? quote: Another branch of government? Not just "No" but "HELL NO!!!" We have courts martial to handle accusations of war crimes. Courts martial do not apply to civilian leadership, Michael. quote: We can only wish. I think the water is always very muddy, when we try to distinguish between national interests and intervention in the internal affairs of another sovereign nation. Military power corrupts. Only nations with military power and global reach intervene in the internal affair of weaker sovereign nations. Isn't that a form of 21st Century colonialism? The weaker nations are not truly sovereign, are they? How many intervener nations are there? You can count them on one hand. No? quote: I think, a good portion of our actions since WW2 were arrived at because of our membership in the UN. I think that we should be a sovereign nation, beholden only to our own national interests and decide for ourselves if military action is necessary. Check me on this. I think the last time we went to war with the approval of the UN was in Korea. Since then we have acted as a sovereign nation, meddling and trampling in foreign lands of our on volition. Don't you agree? No, it was with gulf war one. And Gulf war two was brought on, in part by Iraq's refusal to abide by the cease fire at the end of one.

BamaD -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 9:15:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Vincent the only elaboration you need is history...Without the US there is no power in their judgments...If there should be a hint of a judgement directly against a US President or legislature I believe a threat behind the scenes of abandonment of the UN and the US financing would end any such nonsense...even if valid. Butch Butch, that is why the American people need to become awake to what needless terror and killing is done in our name. Our problem; our solution, since our government is too cowardly to stand before an international tribunal. Let's face it, in all our international endeavors we assume we are the good guys. We see the world in a Manichean tableau of Good verses Evil and we are always Good. Always have been, always will be. And then we wring our hands and cry out: Why do they hate us so? How can we be so blind? No government is going to agree to an international tribunal deciding if their actions are legal. If that were to be standard practice whoever controlled the tribunal would control the world.

DaddySatyr -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 9:28:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML McCain uses the immunity granted to him by standing in a Senate hearing room and calls fellow citizens vile names. He brings disgrace and indignity to high elected office. He is a war monger who cares not to know the consequences of our killing machines on other human beings. Once a war hero; now a coward. I can only re-iterate that I don't think a person, speaking their mind, should be something we look down upon, even if we don't agree with them. If the senator was stating his opinion (that's what it sounded like), he's not stating it as fact. Libel/slander requires two elements, if memory serves; one has to have a malicious intent to do some kind of "harm" and they have to reasonably believe or know, for a fact, that what they are saying is incorrect. An example, if I may? If someone asked me what I thought about VincentML and I said: "VincentML is probably right-handed, enjoys green T-Shirts, and black baseball caps", I have photographic evidence that my assertions are correct. If I said: "I think he posts some really silly crap and some of his views are way out in left field", this is still an assertion of opinion. (ETA): If I said: "I think people that 'sit for portraits' in diners are kind of (insert a negative comment, here) ..." I still wouldn't be into slander/libel territory. (/ETA) To relate it back to the situation, at hand: I am quite sure that the senator was asked something along the lines of: "What do you think about (the people) protesting Dr. Kissinger ...?" or, maybe even: "Talk about the (people) protesting Dr. Kissinger?". Either way, a statement about what someone *thinks* is *not* actionable. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Then you believe there are no just wars? How can you condone our participation in foreign interventions if all wars are criminal? I never said I didn't believe there are just wars. I believe that people have come to expect (rather irrationally) that war is a very neat and tidy business; that the tearing apart of the flesh of the "enemy" can somehow be done in a "humane" manner. I believe there are times when war becomes necessary. I believe wars are tragedies that will never resemble the civility of "high tea". I don't condone a lot of our military involvement and I remind you that I am, essentially, an isolationist. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Courts martial do not apply to civilian leadership, Michael. Well, then, we have an incongruity which needs to be addressed because I was taught that the president, vice president, secretary of defense, etc. were part of the chain of command. In that vein, I don't consider them to be "civillians". However, by my own admission; we have a problem, Houston. How can a courts martial sit in judgment of they that out-rank them? Well, that is an issue. To this point (and I'm not positive it shouldn't continue, based upon what I said in my previous statement {just above}), we have used the idea that the high command should enjoy some measure of immunity. We can't charge people with our protection and then get upset with the manner in which they provide that protection as long as their manner is not outrageously inconsistent with common, accepted, practice. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Military power corrupts. Only nations with military power and global reach intervene in the internal affair of weaker sovereign nations. Isn't that a form of 21st Century colonialism? The weaker nations are not truly sovereign, are they? How many intervener nations are there? You can count them on one hand. No? If you search my name and "building empire" (or words similar), you will find a few examples of my being in agreement about 21st century colonialism. As a result of world events there are only a handful of "intervener nations" and (I think) all of them belong to the UN. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Check me on this. I think the last time we went to war with the approval of the UN was in Korea. Since then we have acted as a sovereign nation, meddling and trampling in foreign lands of our on volition. Don't you agree? Without actually checking (it's late and I still have shoveling to do so I can make it to school, tomorrow), I can tell you that we went into Iraq (in 2003) because of UN resolutions. I can tell you that our membership in the UN "obligated" us to pick up Vietnam after the French and British (BOTH, members of the UN) had a go. I believe, even the first Gulf War was because of our foreign entanglement in that piece of shit attempt at a world government. I really don't have time to do a search but Korea was *not* the last time. Michael

slvemike4u -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/3/2015 12:32:32 AM)
While the President ,Vice President ,Secretary of Defense etc are part of the chain of command they are still,in fact,civilians. If you recall your civics lessons Michael You will recall that the military is under civilian control on this Republic....or at least that's what I was taught.

Musicmystery -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/3/2015 5:12:45 AM)
Nixon: "It's not illegal when the President does it."

bounty44 -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/3/2015 5:25:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle If any one is thinking that the bombing of Laos and Cambodia is in the past and should be left there, can I remind them that to this day, circa a thousand Laotians and Cambodians still die every year from unexploded ordinance (UXO) left over from Kissinger's days. Thousands more receive horrible injuries. Massive areas of agricultural land cannot be farmed. . Tourists are advised not to leave clearly established or marked trails for fear of UXO. I know this to be true as I saw the signs myself when I was there. It's really quite startling to be out in the middle of idyllic countryside and suddenly be confronted by signs advising people of the presence of UXO. It is harrowing to see the horribly mutilated and maimed survivors of UXO incidents who are reduced to begging as the poor economies of Laos and Cambodia cannot care for them adequately. But my discomfort is nothing compared to the stresses imposed on the populations there who have to live with these hidden horrors 24/7/365. Kissinger's 'calling cards' are still buried in the country side by the million of units of UXO. I am unaware if the US contributes or funds the UXO clearance programs these are horrible things and I wouldn't mind a bit if the usa, and whoever else is responsible for the ordnance being there, helped the Laotians and Cambodians find and dispose of them all. here is a little bit about that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_clearance_agency

BamaD -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/3/2015 8:14:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle If any one is thinking that the bombing of Laos and Cambodia is in the past and should be left there, can I remind them that to this day, circa a thousand Laotians and Cambodians still die every year from unexploded ordinance (UXO) left over from Kissinger's days. Thousands more receive horrible injuries. Massive areas of agricultural land cannot be farmed. . Tourists are advised not to leave clearly established or marked trails for fear of UXO. I know this to be true as I saw the signs myself when I was there. It's really quite startling to be out in the middle of idyllic countryside and suddenly be confronted by signs advising people of the presence of UXO. It is harrowing to see the horribly mutilated and maimed survivors of UXO incidents who are reduced to begging as the poor economies of Laos and Cambodia cannot care for them adequately. But my discomfort is nothing compared to the stresses imposed on the populations there who have to live with these hidden horrors 24/7/365. Kissinger's 'calling cards' are still buried in the country side by the million of units of UXO. I am unaware if the US contributes or funds the UXO clearance programs these are horrible things and I wouldn't mind a bit if the usa, and whoever else is responsible for the ordnance being there, helped the Laotians and Cambodians find and dispose of them all. here is a little bit about that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_clearance_agency The killing fields, why doesn't anyone want to bring the surviving people responsible for that to justice? Does everyone forget that the NVA was using both Laos and Cambodia as a safe haven, staging and recuperating in complete safety to move into VN to kill Americans? As Sherman said, war is hell.

Sanity -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/3/2015 9:04:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD The killing fields, why doesn't anyone want to bring the surviving people responsible for that to justice? Does everyone forget that the NVA was using both Laos and Cambodia as a safe haven, staging and recuperating in complete safety to move into VN to kill Americans? As Sherman said, war is hell. They were mass-murdering communists, darlings of the left (Remember Jane Fondas antics?) We were just supposed to roll over and let them literally get way with mass murder, enslaving entire nations to their demented ideology Anything else is a war crime

vincentML -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/3/2015 10:49:37 AM)
quote: No, it was with gulf war one. And Gulf war two was brought on, in part by Iraq's refusal to abide by the cease fire at the end of one. Welcome to the conversation. You are correct about Gulf war I. There was an authorizing Security Council resolution. We disagree about Iraq War 2. The UN SC did not pass an enabling resolution. And the WMDs turned out to be a propaganda myth.

vincentML -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/3/2015 10:54:06 AM)
quote: No government is going to agree to an international tribunal deciding if their actions are legal. If that were to be standard practice whoever controlled the tribunal would control the world. The UN Charter includes the International Court of Justice to settle disputes between member states. Then there is the ICC in which individuals can be judged.

vincentML -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/3/2015 11:08:31 AM)
quote: To relate it back to the situation, at hand: I am quite sure that the senator was asked something along the lines of: "What do you think about (the people) protesting Dr. Kissinger ...?" or, maybe even: "Talk about the (people) protesting Dr. Kissinger?". Either way, a statement about what someone thinks is not actionable. Michael, see the tape. McCain's remarks were voluntary and imo beneath the dignity expected of a United States senator. quote: Without actually checking (it's late and I still have shoveling to do so I can make it to school, tomorrow), I can tell you that we went into Iraq (in 2003) because of UN resolutions. I don't believe there was an enabling resolution, Michael. quote: I can tell you that our membership in the UN "obligated" us to pick up Vietnam after the French and British (BOTH, members of the UN) had a go. There might be an justification to defend a member being attacked but I doubt there is one to come to the aid of a member losing part of its old empire. Eisenhower did not assist France in its loss of Algeria, and he swiftly dissuaded the Israeli, French, and British attack after Nassar nationalized the Suez Canal (if I recall that all correctly) Not any of this excuses Kissinger from the accusations made against him.

vincentML -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/3/2015 11:19:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD The killing fields, why doesn't anyone want to bring the surviving people responsible for that to justice? Does everyone forget that the NVA was using both Laos and Cambodia as a safe haven, staging and recuperating in complete safety to move into VN to kill Americans? As Sherman said, war is hell. They were mass-murdering communists, darlings of the left (Remember Jane Fondas antics?) We were just supposed to roll over and let them literally get way with mass murder, enslaving entire nations to their demented ideology Anything else is a war crime The mass killings occurred between 1975 - 1979. Ironically, it was the Vietnamese who drove the Khmer Rouge into the jungle and stopped the killing. Jane Fonda saved a lot of American lives.

BamaD -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/3/2015 11:48:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: No, it was with gulf war one. And Gulf war two was brought on, in part by Iraq's refusal to abide by the cease fire at the end of one. Welcome to the conversation. You are correct about Gulf war I. There was an authorizing Security Council resolution. We disagree about Iraq War 2. The UN SC did not pass an enabling resolution. And the WMDs turned out to be a propaganda myth. They found over a ton of fissionable material. Plus labs for bio and chemical weapons. And Iraq had violated virtually every article of the cease-fire, not a treaty, a cease-fire.

BamaD -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/3/2015 11:57:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD The killing fields, why doesn't anyone want to bring the surviving people responsible for that to justice? Does everyone forget that the NVA was using both Laos and Cambodia as a safe haven, staging and recuperating in complete safety to move into VN to kill Americans? As Sherman said, war is hell. They were mass-murdering communists, darlings of the left (Remember Jane Fondas antics?) We were just supposed to roll over and let them literally get way with mass murder, enslaving entire nations to their demented ideology Anything else is a war crime The mass killings occurred between 1975 - 1979. Ironically, it was the Vietnamese who drove the Khmer Rouge into the jungle and stopped the killing. Jane Fonda saved a lot of American lives. Jane Fonda was a traitor who gave the North Vietnamese information that helped them with interrogations. She turned over notes given to her by POWs to the North Vietnamese. She aided in making anti American propaganda, you remember the infamous picture of her on a Vietnamese anti aircraft gun? She lied about the treatment of American prisoners when she returned to the states. You might as well call Tokyo Rose a great American hero. Or Benedict Arnold. And she encouraged them to kill more Americans so we would quit.

CreativeDominant -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/3/2015 12:28:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: No, it was with gulf war one. And Gulf war two was brought on, in part by Iraq's refusal to abide by the cease fire at the end of one. Welcome to the conversation. You are correct about Gulf war I. There was an authorizing Security Council resolution. We disagree about Iraq War 2. The UN SC did not pass an enabling resolution. And the WMDs turned out to be a propaganda myth. They found over a ton of fissionable material. Plus labs for bio and chemical weapons. And Iraq had violated virtually every article of the cease-fire, not a treaty, a cease-fire. But...But...But...surely they only wanted the material for good purposes? Like heating homes...right?

mnottertail -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/3/2015 12:45:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: No, it was with gulf war one. And Gulf war two was brought on, in part by Iraq's refusal to abide by the cease fire at the end of one. Welcome to the conversation. You are correct about Gulf war I. There was an authorizing Security Council resolution. We disagree about Iraq War 2. The UN SC did not pass an enabling resolution. And the WMDs turned out to be a propaganda myth. They found over a ton of fissionable material. Plus labs for bio and chemical weapons. And Iraq had violated virtually every article of the cease-fire, not a treaty, a cease-fire. But...But...But...surely they only wanted the material for good purposes? Like heating homes...right? Yeah, no. Never happened. The stuff that went to Canada was already on the books, but never got shipped because there was a sort of a war on. Nothing else but hallucinations.

joether -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/3/2015 1:01:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: No, it was with gulf war one. And Gulf war two was brought on, in part by Iraq's refusal to abide by the cease fire at the end of one. Welcome to the conversation. You are correct about Gulf war I. There was an authorizing Security Council resolution. We disagree about Iraq War 2. The UN SC did not pass an enabling resolution. And the WMDs turned out to be a propaganda myth. They found over a ton of fissionable material. Plus labs for bio and chemical weapons. And Iraq had violated virtually every article of the cease-fire, not a treaty, a cease-fire. But...But...But...surely they only wanted the material for good purposes? Like heating homes...right? Which nations have used WMDs on civilians?

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