quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

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No, it was with gulf war one.
And Gulf war two was brought on, in part by Iraq's refusal to abide by the cease fire at the end of one.

Welcome to the conversation. You are correct about Gulf war I. There was an authorizing Security Council resolution. We disagree about Iraq War 2. The UN SC did not pass an enabling resolution. And the WMDs turned out to be a propaganda myth.

They found over a ton of fissionable material.
Plus labs for bio and chemical weapons.
And Iraq had violated virtually every article of the cease-fire, not a treaty, a cease-fire.

quote:

Jane Fonda was a traitor who gave the North Vietnamese information that helped them with interrogations.
She turned over notes given to her by POWs to the North Vietnamese.
She aided in making anti American propaganda, you remember the infamous picture of her on a Vietnamese anti aircraft gun?
She lied about the treatment of American prisoners when she returned to the states.
You might as well call Tokyo Rose a great American hero. Or Benedict Arnold.
And she encouraged them to kill more Americans so we would quit.

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ORIGINAL: joether

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ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

No, it was with gulf war one.
And Gulf war two was brought on, in part by Iraq's refusal to abide by the cease fire at the end of one.

Welcome to the conversation. You are correct about Gulf war I. There was an authorizing Security Council resolution. We disagree about Iraq War 2. The UN SC did not pass an enabling resolution. And the WMDs turned out to be a propaganda myth.

They found over a ton of fissionable material.
Plus labs for bio and chemical weapons.
And Iraq had violated virtually every article of the cease-fire, not a treaty, a cease-fire.

But...But...But...surely they only wanted the material for good purposes? Like heating homes...right?

Which nations have used WMDs on civilians?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Jane Fonda was a traitor who gave the North Vietnamese information that helped them with interrogations.
She turned over notes given to her by POWs to the North Vietnamese.
She aided in making anti American propaganda, you remember the infamous picture of her on a Vietnamese anti aircraft gun?
She lied about the treatment of American prisoners when she returned to the states.
You might as well call Tokyo Rose a great American hero. Or Benedict Arnold.
And she encouraged them to kill more Americans so we would quit.

I remember the photo. Making anti-American propaganda is not treason; it is free speech. Tokyo Rose did not save lives. Different war; different morality.
Bottom line, Fonda and the anti-war movement hurried us out of a stupid and desperately self-imposed, national delusion. Takes guts to stand against the mob.

Fonda's behavior does not excuse Kissinger's crimes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Jane Fonda was a traitor who gave the North Vietnamese information that helped them with interrogations.
She turned over notes given to her by POWs to the North Vietnamese.
She aided in making anti American propaganda, you remember the infamous picture of her on a Vietnamese anti aircraft gun?
She lied about the treatment of American prisoners when she returned to the states.
You might as well call Tokyo Rose a great American hero. Or Benedict Arnold.
And she encouraged them to kill more Americans so we would quit.

I remember the photo. Making anti-American propaganda is not treason; it is free speech. Tokyo Rose did not save lives. Different war; different morality.
Bottom line, Fonda and the anti-war movement hurried us out of a stupid and desperately self-imposed, national delusion. Takes guts to stand against the mob.

Fonda's behavior does not excuse Kissinger's crimes.

Nor do your beliefs excuse Fonda's actions.

And for all of Hanoi Jane's love for the people she sided with, I note that she never chose to live there. I note she certainly never renounced the benefits of living in this war-mongering country.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Jane Fonda was a traitor who gave the North Vietnamese information that helped them with interrogations.
She turned over notes given to her by POWs to the North Vietnamese.
She aided in making anti American propaganda, you remember the infamous picture of her on a Vietnamese anti aircraft gun?
She lied about the treatment of American prisoners when she returned to the states.
You might as well call Tokyo Rose a great American hero. Or Benedict Arnold.
And she encouraged them to kill more Americans so we would quit.

I remember the photo. Making anti-American propaganda is not treason; it is free speech. Tokyo Rose did not save lives. Different war; different morality.
Bottom line, Fonda and the anti-war movement hurried us out of a stupid and desperately self-imposed, national delusion. Takes guts to stand against the mob.

Fonda's behavior does not excuse Kissinger's crimes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

She has, however; renounced her actions in Vietnam. Not that it excuses them.
But with age comes wisdom.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

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ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Jane Fonda was a traitor who gave the North Vietnamese information that helped them with interrogations.
She turned over notes given to her by POWs to the North Vietnamese.
She aided in making anti American propaganda, you remember the infamous picture of her on a Vietnamese anti aircraft gun?
She lied about the treatment of American prisoners when she returned to the states.
You might as well call Tokyo Rose a great American hero. Or Benedict Arnold.
And she encouraged them to kill more Americans so we would quit.

I remember the photo. Making anti-American propaganda is not treason; it is free speech. Tokyo Rose did not save lives. Different war; different morality.
Bottom line, Fonda and the anti-war movement hurried us out of a stupid and desperately self-imposed, national delusion. Takes guts to stand against the mob.

Fonda's behavior does not excuse Kissinger's crimes.

Nor do your beliefs excuse Fonda's actions.

And for all of Hanoi Jane's love for the people she sided with, I note that she never chose to live there. I note she certainly never renounced the benefits of living in this war-mongering country.

She has, however; renounced her actions in Vietnam. Not that it excuses them.
But with age comes wisdom.

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ORIGINAL: Sanity

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

She has, however; renounced her actions in Vietnam. Not that it excuses them.
But with age comes wisdom.

Trying to get her acting career back

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Look, I don't know that we should have been in Vietnam at all. To those who agree with it, her actions (I don't know about heroic) but are fine.

I think Muhammad Ali's actions were heroic if not just plain fine.

Thats what they did, I did what I did.

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ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

There is an ex-concentration-camp guard just gone on trial at the moment in Germany. I think I read that he is 91 years old. If HE can be tried, why not Kissinger ? Or anybody else suspected of war crimes or crimes against humanity ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Jane Fonda was a traitor who gave the North Vietnamese information that helped them with interrogations.
She turned over notes given to her by POWs to the North Vietnamese.
She aided in making anti American propaganda, you remember the infamous picture of her on a Vietnamese anti aircraft gun?
She lied about the treatment of American prisoners when she returned to the states.
You might as well call Tokyo Rose a great American hero. Or Benedict Arnold.
And she encouraged them to kill more Americans so we would quit.

I remember the photo. Making anti-American propaganda is not treason; it is free speech. Tokyo Rose did not save lives. Different war; different morality.
Bottom line, Fonda and the anti-war movement hurried us out of a stupid and desperately self-imposed, national delusion. Takes guts to stand against the mob.

Fonda's behavior does not excuse Kissinger's crimes.

Nor do your beliefs excuse Fonda's actions.

And for all of Hanoi Jane's love for the people she sided with, I note that she never chose to live there. I note she certainly never renounced the benefits of living in this war-mongering country.

She has, however; renounced her actions in Vietnam. Not that it excuses them.
But with age comes wisdom.

I will grant you that she did...and for some people, it does indeed. But it's hard to feel good about her renunciation when there are always those who somehow view her actions as heroic.

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ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Look, I don't know that we should have been in Vietnam at all. To those who agree with it, her actions (I don't know about heroic) but are fine.

I think Muhammad Ali's actions were heroic if not just plain fine.

Thats what they did, I did what I did.

I really have no problem with what either of them did.I figure they were both following their conscious .
But Ali does not belong in the conversation with Fonda....he never went to North Vietnam and allowed himself to be used as a propaganda tool...which she clearly did.
Ali's stand was in my eyes truly heroic.He knew for shit sure they had no intention of sending the heavyweight champion of the world to go get shot at.
He could have accepted induction and fought some USO exhibition fights.
Instead he stood up for his beliefs and lost the best three and a half years of a fighter life,and all the money he could have made(not to mention the money he had to pay lawyers to take a case to the Supreme court ...and win)
Ali is truly an American Hero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

There is an ex-concentration-camp guard just gone on trial at the moment in Germany. I think I read that he is 91 years old. If HE can be tried, why not Kissinger ? Or anybody else suspected of war crimes or crimes against humanity ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

There is an ex-concentration-camp guard just gone on trial at the moment in Germany. I think I read that he is 91 years old. If HE can be tried, why not Kissinger ? Or anybody else suspected of war crimes or crimes against humanity ?