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Male & Female Numbers: Myth vs. Reality - 3/4/2015 5:09:21 PM

Baroana

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I posted a thread similar to this on the other site, and the response wasn't very nice. But fuck it, there aren't many active threads here, so here goes.

I've heard repeatedly, as we all have, that submissive males vastly outnumber dominant females. I don't think that's actually true, though. It seems as though that might just be something people say without basis.

I have not done an exhaustive study, but I have done a bit of counting and observation. I have not noticed a vast outnumbering issue either at real events or online (taking at face value the self-assigned submissive label).

Thoughts?

Post #: 1

RE: Male & Female Numbers: Myth vs. Reality - 3/4/2015 6:26:50 PM

DesFIP

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From: Apple County NY
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If you're talking about truly submissive men, I don't think the numbers are of such a vast difference.

However, a great many men pick sub as a label when they actually want someone to cater to their fetish. And I doubt there are that many women who want someone to drool on their feet for hours every night as opposed to washing the dishes when asked.

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(in reply to Baroana)

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RE: Male & Female Numbers: Myth vs. Reality - 3/4/2015 6:42:07 PM

MsLadySue

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I suspect a lot of male 'subs' list as such simply because their interests lie in wanting lots of 'kinky' sex. A majority of the male subs
I've had contact with ask if they will be allowed to service me and the conversation ends quickly once I tell them no.

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(in reply to Baroana)

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RE: Male & Female Numbers: Myth vs. Reality - 3/4/2015 11:27:42 PM

orgasmdenial12

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Back on another UK website, someone ran a script to ascertain the number of male and female Doms, switches and subs.

There were approximately equal numbers of male Doms and female subs, if you counted female switches towards the subs.

There were between 1 and 3 female Dommes for every 9 male submissives.

So I do not think that there is an imbalance in men and women for M/f relationships, but for F/m I think there is a large imbalance.

(in reply to Baroana)

Post #: 4

RE: Male & Female Numbers: Myth vs. Reality - 3/5/2015 4:27:11 AM

MariaB

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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

If you're talking about truly submissive men, I don't think the numbers are of such a vast difference.

However, a great many men pick sub as a label when they actually want someone to cater to their fetish. And I doubt there are that many women who want someone to drool on their feet for hours every night as opposed to washing the dishes when asked.

This made me stop and think ^

Finding a male submissive is actually quite difficult because so many of those who claim to have submission running through their very being are just desperate men that need to get their kink on. I would say, finding a male submissive who can go on that journey and stay true to their word is far rarer than female submissives. Females are a lot more transparent and so easier to form a D/s relationship with. I've only ever had one female who I walked away from because she was wasting my time but I've had lots of male subs who came to me with a pack of bullshit. I'm much more cautious with male submissives than I am with female ones because like DesFIP says, whilst they appear to be in abundance, they really aren't.

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(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 5

RE: Male & Female Numbers: Myth vs. Reality - 3/5/2015 4:45:31 AM

IcarusBurning

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Joined: 2/1/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

And I doubt there are that many women who want someone to drool on their feet for hours every night as opposed to washing the dishes when asked.

Ahaha! "Everybody wants to do a revolution, but nobody wants to do the dishes" - HONY

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 6

RE: Male & Female Numbers: Myth vs. Reality - 3/5/2015 5:25:18 AM

crumpets

Posts: 1614
Joined: 11/5/2014
From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
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I fully understand the concept that many males want their fetish delivery system, any way they can get it; however, I do think the male subs outnumber dom females, at least, if I specifically limit my one test to male sub KEYWORDS versus female dom keywords.

Here's a test, run, just now, on Craiglist (where the test is easy to run):

TEST AREA: SF Bay Area (personals)
KEYWORDS: submissive dominant (Total = 357 hits)
FILTERS: (m4w = 116 hits) (w4m = 1 hit) (m4m = 81 hits) (w4w =1 hit) (mw4m = 3 hits) (mw4w = 17 hits)

TEST AREA: NY City (personals)
KEYWORDS: submissive dominant (Total = 749 hits)
FILTERS: (m4w = 311 hits) (w4m = 7 hits) (m4m = 101 hits) (w4w =5 hits) (mw4m = 1 hit) (mw4w = 37 hits)

TEST AREA: Chicago (pesonals)
KEYWORDS: submissive dominant (Total = 272 hits)
FILTERS: (m4w = 100 hits) (w4m = 4 hits) (m4m = 95 hits) (w4w =5 hits) (mw4m = 2 hits) (mw4w = 5 hits)

The logical next step would be to cull out the submissive men from the dominant men (which would require actually reading hundrds of ads) so that only the submissive men are considered; and then run the same culling operation for dominant women, but, it's pretty clear already that the men vastly outnumber the women.

(in reply to IcarusBurning)

Post #: 7

RE: Male & Female Numbers: Myth vs. Reality - 3/5/2015 6:30:09 AM

Aibo

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Joined: 1/28/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12
So I do not think that there is an imbalance in men and women for M/f relationships, but for F/m I think there is a large imbalance.

I have been a member of a handful more of less local BDSM societies, and came up with numbers that is close to yours.

That being there were a slightly larger number of male dominants than female submissives.
Here one have to remember that some females might never take the step. And not all might not do that, females are more sensitive for the risk of being 'exposed' or afraid they might end up in a situation they do not would be comfortable in - or worse.
So yes, the number for Dominats vs. Submissives among M/f might be in balance, but they will still not meet each other.

And so we do see still got an imbalance here, be it online or in societies and clubs.
(True that switches can be a match for a dominant male, but still can you say its a perfect one? My ex-slave actually labelled herself a switch originally, but found it to weird to switch with the same person so she were all sub/slave to me. And I am not poly so she ended up with one side of things. It was not the main reason it ended, but I cannot deny it was part of what ended the 10 year long story.)

With submissive men, there sure are a larger number to claim to have the orientation.
At the same time I have also heard dominant females (in face to face discussions at munches or other social cafe meetings= complain that they've been unable to find a true devoted slave man to settle down with.
That said only to confirm what already been hinted here.
So any ratio for F/m taken from online ads alone, will have to be taken with some grains of doubt - or perhaps the entire beaker. =)

< Message edited by Aibo -- 3/5/2015 6:31:46 AM >

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)

Post #: 8

RE: Male & Female Numbers: Myth vs. Reality - 3/5/2015 7:23:38 AM

GoddessManko

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Uncollared submissive men FAR outnumber uncollared submissive women. Also sub women are a lot more compromising, eager and explorative kink wise. As far as kink play, submissive women are off the charts in willingness compared to men. This is statistically speaking.

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(in reply to Aibo)

Post #: 9

RE: Male & Female Numbers: Myth vs. Reality - 3/5/2015 8:42:16 AM

dreamlady

Posts: 737
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From: Western MD
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crumpets: With all due respect, the number of men who advertise on Craigslist "vastly outnumber" those women advertising, does not reflect any number of relevant factors in your results.
You have to take into account a pre-filtered pool. I know that I would never advertise on Craigslist for a partner. (I am a Domme-leaning switch.) Nobody I know seeking a serious and committed relationship would do so either.
Then you have to factor in how many of these ads are offering professional services, and whether those classifying themselves are dominant in both their professional and in their private lives.
A married man looking to fool around is pre-owned. While he may be submissive sexually, he is not collarable or fully ownable. There are just too many variables to consider.

I think there are many more males who want to become or who are bedroom submissives.
So the question is not the ratio of submissive males to dominant females, but the ratio of acceptably submissive men to available dominant women. This is where opinions will vary, according to Dommes, and this number no doubt is exceedingly low and bumps up m:F ratios.

Overall orgasmdenial12 (who provides a good baseline measurement), I would say that 10:1 is a lowball figure no matter how it gets figured and estimate it at twice that, or more like 20:1 on line (whether or not they have any intention of taking it out of the fantasy interaction realm).

< Message edited by dreamlady -- 3/5/2015 8:49:37 AM >

(in reply to crumpets)

Post #: 10

RE: Male & Female Numbers: Myth vs. Reality - 3/5/2015 8:56:23 AM

GotSteel

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Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana
I've heard repeatedly, as we all have, that submissive males vastly outnumber dominant females. I don't think that's actually true, though. It seems as though that might just be something people say without basis.

Every study I've seen on this has shown a large disparity, the most recent shows a ratio greater than 4:1

quote:

ORIGINAL:http://www.livescience.com/34832-bdsm-healthy-psychology.html
Of the BDSM practitioners, 33 percent of the men reported being submissive, 48 percent dominant and 18 percent "switch," or willing to switch between submissive and dominant roles in bed. About 75 percent of the female BDSM respondents were submissive, 8 percent dominant and 16 percent switch.

(in reply to Baroana)

Post #: 11

RE: Male & Female Numbers: Myth vs. Reality - 3/5/2015 9:24:20 AM

igor2003

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--FR--

I would assume that the original question is more about people that are seeking an actual, personal, D/s relationship. Most of the responders seem to be ruling out the submissive males that are only in if for the occasional kinky sex. That would definitely significantly reduce the number of submissive males. But, to be fair, you are also going to have to take out the findommes and pro dommes that are only in it for the money. Those that, without the money, would have no interest in D/s and are not actually looking for that illusive D/s relationship. And anyone that thinks that fin- and pro-dommes don't make up a very significant portion of "what's available" is deluding themselves.

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(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 12

RE: Male & Female Numbers: Myth vs. Reality - 3/5/2015 9:48:39 AM

orgasmdenial12

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Every study I've seen on this has shown a large disparity, the most recent shows a ratio greater than 4:1

quote:

ORIGINAL:http://www.livescience.com/34832-bdsm-healthy-psychology.html
Of the BDSM practitioners, 33 percent of the men reported being submissive, 48 percent dominant and 18 percent "switch," or willing to switch between submissive and dominant roles in bed. About 75 percent of the female BDSM respondents were submissive, 8 percent dominant and 16 percent switch.

That quote does not give any indication of the ratio between men and women in the scene, it only gives the ratio of roles within each gender. There is nothing to indicate they interviewed equal numbers of men and women so we cannot say what the ratios are, according to that quote.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 13

RE: Male & Female Numbers: Myth vs. Reality - 3/5/2015 11:15:42 AM

crumpets

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Joined: 11/5/2014
From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamlady
Nobody I know seeking a serious and committed relationship would do so either.

This is a good point, in that men advertise wholly differently than do women, so, looking at only one advertising method (i.e., Craigslist personal ads) does not a valid statistic make.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamlady
Then you have to factor in how many of these ads are offering professional services, and whether those classifying themselves are dominant in both their professional and in their private lives.

I suspect, in Craigslist, that this is not the case - but - I agree that this is entirely the case in most media.

Women, in my opinion, are far (far far far) more likely to be able to make money on this type of endeavor over men.
So, in MOST advertising media, the women advertising will far outnumber the men.

Yet, in PERSONAL (i.e., no money, relationships, or FWB) advertising, the number of men advertising for dominant/submissive relationsihps (used loosely) vastly outweight the women.

So, in three ways, I can say that the professional men and women are not represented in my datum:
1. Men can't easily go pro (effectively, none of the men are pros)
2. Women were very low anyway (so, even if they were pros, they were outnumbered even more so by the mean)
3 Pro ads get weeded out of the personals very quickly anyway

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamlady
So the question is not the ratio of submissive males to dominant females, but the ratio of acceptably submissive men to available dominant women.

This is a perfectly valid question, and which would be interesting to know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamladymore like 20:1 on line

Sounds like a reasonable number, to me. I can't think of ANYTHING I've ever done that didn't have at least a 20:1 ratio of men to women in my entire life. I don't know what women do, but it's nothing that I do.

< Message edited by crumpets -- 3/5/2015 11:20:32 AM >

(in reply to dreamlady)

Post #: 14

RE: Male & Female Numbers: Myth vs. Reality - 3/5/2015 4:01:01 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12
That quote does not give any indication of the ratio between men and women in the scene, it only gives the ratio of roles within each gender. There is nothing to indicate they interviewed equal numbers of men and women so we cannot say what the ratios are, according to that quote.

It doesn't matter if they interviewed equal numbers, it only matters what the actual ratio of kinky men to women is and I've never seen an indication that women are MORE likely to be kinky than men, every indication is that they are less likely and women are certainly not 4 times more likely to be kinky which is what it would take for there not to be way too many submissive men.

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)

Post #: 15

RE: Male & Female Numbers: Myth vs. Reality - 3/5/2015 4:47:02 PM

GoddessManko

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From: Dante's Inferno
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I have hundreds of emails that indicate they do outnumber us. Many of these emails include "I have years of experience in the lifestyle" (yet uncollared). The "yet uncollared" thing sticks out like a sore thumb for me. Especially if he's good looking and has a nice cock. So unless they can convince me to not be a skeptic I will be.

_____________________________

Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

http://submissivemale.blogspot.com/

The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

(in reply to GotSteel)

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RE: Male & Female Numbers: Myth vs. Reality - 3/5/2015 9:53:42 PM

DarkSteven

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I you mean the men who self-identify as subs and the women who self-identify as Dommes, sure. But I would not consider most of those men to be actual subs.

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to GoddessManko)

Post #: 17

RE: Male & Female Numbers: Myth vs. Reality - 3/5/2015 10:16:49 PM

Marini

Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

If you're talking about truly submissive men, I don't think the numbers are of such a vast difference.

However, a great many men pick sub as a label when they actually want someone to cater to their fetish. And I doubt there are that many women who want someone to drool on their feet for hours every night as opposed to washing the dishes when asked.

This made me stop and think ^

Finding a male submissive is actually quite difficult because so many of those who claim to have submission running through their very being are just desperate men that need to get their kink on. I would say, finding a male submissive who can go on that journey and stay true to their word is far rarer than female submissives. Females are a lot more transparent and so easier to form a D/s relationship with. I've only ever had one female who I walked away from because she was wasting my time but I've had lots of male subs who came to me with a pack of bullshit. I'm much more cautious with male submissives than I am with female ones because like DesFIP says, whilst they appear to be in abundance, they really aren't.

I agree with what BOTH of these women stated.

I highlighted what I have encountered, and what many, many, other Dominant women have stated they also have encountered.
do-me does not equal submissive

< Message edited by Marini -- 3/5/2015 10:25:57 PM >

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"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
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Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to MariaB)

Post #: 18

RE: Male & Female Numbers: Myth vs. Reality - 3/5/2015 10:42:11 PM

tylerWILLsubmit

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Joined: 12/8/2014
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Personally, I have always felt that the numbers don't really matter much. It's either an excuse to complain or try to speed through every potential match as to not waste time because of the odds. If as a submissive man, I have to look longer for what I want than so be it. Guess I just have patience. I have always felt bad for the women who get bombarded with messages. I personally feel like men are more impatient.

I just ignore the numbers.

(in reply to Marini)

Post #: 19

RE: Male & Female Numbers: Myth vs. Reality - 3/5/2015 11:38:05 PM

epiphiny43

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Joined: 10/20/2006
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1. Fewer dom women will post on personals sites simply because they find subs easier than sub men finding Dommes. The odds Are real, and men are more active in seeking on the net, sub or Dom. Also there is the Western cultural attitude a male is more responsible for his realizing desires actively even if sub, whereas a woman finds less implied or overt pressure to go out and dig up what is needed publicly. More appropriately, selecting among courtiers. Who posts up for what is simpler to find face-to-face, without the admitted risks?
2. Saying most 'sub' men aren't really submissive is more a statement of an elitist power exchange attitude. It disses sexual dominance and submission severely as ''not real". My kink is good, yours sucks"? Obviously more men are sexually submissive than are into F/m in terms of whole relationships. And many male kinks are both specific and elaborate. Which holds for many women's expectations of a 'Real Man', equally. It's equally valid to say many Dommes are Not kinky sexually, just want to run someone else life and be catered to. Not dissing it, but it's hardly the whole of BDSM.

My experience is at roughly half the Dommes I've interacted with have absolutely no intention of being physically intimate with a sub, even a collared one. (Oral service might be accepted by some.) Half of those had a M/f sexual relationship for their sexual intimacy. Rough numbers! It's revealing of some deep hypocrisy how many Lifestyle Dommes with a M/f primary sexual relationship are totally dismissive of any hint of 'switch' in a male sub. "You aren't capable of compartmentalizing, but I can!"
3. Men have always been generally 'kinkier' for both topping and bottoming. Look at the difference in kinky expression in the male gay community versus lesbian? Significantly larger percentages of overt sexual kink activity, much of it divorced from intimate emotional relationships, at least among the younger men.
4. The accusation many men subs 'just want their kink serviced' holds as well for many submissive women. They have the advantage of so many male Doms acting out kink desires which dovetail with sexually submissive female kinks much better than specific and often elaborate male sub sexual kinks dovetail with those of women wanting 'service' and 'chastity', or uninterested in restraints and impact play. It's hard for me to see how having the household chores done and being catered/attended to is different from 'having a kink serviced'. Just different kinks? Yes, I understand it's much rarer to find one happy to and capable of anticipating needs and serving All the interests of the dominant partner. Men don't find great subs any faster or more often?
5. These differences are most evident in how Doms and Dommes use chastity devices. Predominant male use is to prevent women from having covert penetrative contact with other men, not to lower the incidence of contact between Dom and f sub/slave. Dommes lean far more than men to preventing Orgasms for long periods or totally, even banishing them, not simply contact with other women or at times and places other than their choosing. Which is pretty unrealistic about male ingenuity when it comes to orgasms or defeating mechanical restraints.

An generation gap may be developing, the current set of adolescents are growing up with far different influences and pressures than any before. How many under 20's in forums? Even during the Clinton years, it seems a majority of those under voting age considered oral contact 'not sex', as the POTA claimed. This has only become more prevalent.
Significant numbers of women seem to be using gender liberation to try out acting like men. Hopefully this is a pendulum swing and women will eventually be freer to explore their own sexuality rather than using men as any sort of role model. It will be interesting to see how that plays out, if I'm still around.

(in reply to Marini)

Post #: 20

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