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RE: News from the Society for the Perpetually Offended - 5/13/2015 5:40:08 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

nudity is not rape
not in any way shape or form.

But again, you arent reading what I said, you are making it all up in your sad little goading attempts. But you you are lying, "enlightening and uplifting" is NOwhere in my statements anywhere and not even close to being truthful.




And Ovid is NOT "unsafe."

I would hate to see the girl's reaction to the Brother's Grimm.

Again, if you cannot handle the reading material without the vapors, then college is not the place for you.

Where did i say it was unsafe?? where did i post an opinion on its.....content....oh thats right , i havent.
the only book ive ever read that gave me nightmares was steven kings " It*
And that was 30 years ago.
Rape triggers are very fucking real and do not follow a tidy line in any person, wether male or female, and wether or not she needs therapy or a break from the class, taking the piss out of rape and its resulting triggers is What im talking about Here.




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RE: News from the Society for the Perpetually Offended - 5/13/2015 5:43:38 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

nudity is not rape
not in any way shape or form.

But again, you arent reading what I said, you are making it all up in your sad little goading attempts. But you you are lying, "enlightening and uplifting" is NOwhere in my statements anywhere and not even close to being truthful.




And Ovid is NOT "unsafe."

I would hate to see the girl's reaction to the Brother's Grimm.

Again, if you cannot handle the reading material without the vapors, then college is not the place for you.

Where did i say it was unsafe?? where did i post an opinion on its.....content....oh thats right , i havent.
the only book ive ever read that gave me nightmares was steven kings " It*
And that was 30 years ago.
Rape triggers are very fucking real and do not follow a tidy line in any person, wether male or female, and wether or not she needs therapy or a break from the class, taking the piss out of rape and its resulting triggers is What im talking about Here.






The girl said that Ovid made her feel "unsafe."

You said that nudity was not rape and this is true. At the same time, Ovid is not unsafe.

As far as taking the "piss" goes (I think that means making fun of). . . I know that I was serious about her NOT reading Brothers Grimm or college being the right place for her.

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RE: News from the Society for the Perpetually Offended - 5/13/2015 5:54:08 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/HaidesPersephone2.html
Not AS Klines version

But....making decisions and deriding what a raped womans triggers should or shouldnt be...is vile.

Get a grip. It's a myth. Proserpine is a goddess, carried off by her divine lover. Not exactly a template for the average rape experience. And, there is no depiction of rape. She resists his advances. She fasts. But finally she succumbs and eats the fruit of the garden, forbidden under penalty of separation from paradise, and thereby loses all hope of returning home. But to her great joy, Jupiter allows Proserpine to spend part of the year with her mother and part of year with her divine lover, sparing her the loss of being separated from either.

Kline: The aspect of her face and mind alters in a moment. Now the goddess’s looks are glad, that even Dis could see were sad, a moment ago. Just as the sun, hidden, before, by clouds of rain, wins through and leaves the clouds.

Melville: Straightway her heart and features are transformed; that face which even Dis [Haides] must have found unhappy beams with joy, as when the sun, long lost and hidden in the clouds and rain, rides forth in triumph from the clouds again.

There is no material difference in the story between Kline's translation and the one you offered.

Kline: if only we are willing to give things their right names, the thing is not an insult in itself: the truth is it is love.

Melville: If we allow things proper names, here is no harm, no crime, but love and passion.

I would suggest for your consideration that since there are no "vivid" and "detailed" depictions of "rape and sexual abuse" here, there can't be a student who was "triggered" by them. All we have is some people whose brains have been pickled in Critical Theory trying to invent an outrage.

K.


get a grip, its the myth via ovid.......not kline, not melville, strrange that your source is a third the length of ovids.
oh and i offer this up for consideration, rape triggers dont have rhyme or reason.
You offered up this " outrage" why are you expecting no dissent?





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RE: News from the Society for the Perpetually Offended - 5/13/2015 6:05:05 PM   
HunterCA


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http://www.nationalreview.com/article/418273/university-report-room-full-white-people-microaggression-katherine-timpf


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Profile   Post #: 404
RE: News from the Society for the Perpetually Offended - 5/13/2015 6:06:46 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

get a grip, its the myth via ovid.......not kline, not melville, strrange that your source is a third the length of ovids.
oh and i offer this up for consideration, rape triggers dont have rhyme or reason.
You offered up this " outrage" why are you expecting no dissent?

1: Yeah, no. They're reading it in translation. If not Kline (my links) or Melville (yours) then somebody else.
2: There is no rape. It's "right" name (Kline), it's "proper" name (Melville), is love.
3: I didn't offer it up. The names of the authors are at the link. They're offering it up. Thanks anyway.

K.


(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 405
RE: News from the Society for the Perpetually Offended - 5/13/2015 6:13:18 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
But....making decisions and deriding what a raped womans triggers should or shouldnt be...is vile.

Let's set aside your own scorn for others and focus on your concern for the victims of rape and apply them in a college setting.



Yeah i think not.....look in the mirror.
ive worked with domestic abuse, rapes and resultant suicides, for years.
Not in college kids and not in the us. My own daughter is in uni right now, she helps run a safety program for students.....they had an alarming number of vicious, as in stabbing, rapes. The program has worked. Rapes and physical attacks are down, on men as well as women. They also have qualified staff to deal with people with issues .
they dont have them in the us?
Idont disagree that this story is.....a mountain out a molehill to me personally, but im 53, not 18-24
I do however know what its like to have been violated and have strange triggers.
I know how to deal with them now, but for years i didnt have a clue.
it is what it is

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 406
RE: News from the Society for the Perpetually Offended - 5/13/2015 6:38:39 PM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

nudity is not rape
not in any way shape or form.

But again, you arent reading what I said, you are making it all up in your sad little goading attempts. But you you are lying, "enlightening and uplifting" is NOwhere in my statements anywhere and not even close to being truthful.




And Ovid is NOT "unsafe."

I would hate to see the girl's reaction to the Brother's Grimm.

Again, if you cannot handle the reading material without the vapors, then college is not the place for you.

Where did i say it was unsafe?? where did i post an opinion on its.....content....oh thats right , i havent.
the only book ive ever read that gave me nightmares was steven kings " It*
And that was 30 years ago.
Rape triggers are very fucking real and do not follow a tidy line in any person, wether male or female, and wether or not she needs therapy or a break from the class, taking the piss out of rape and its resulting triggers is What im talking about Here.





I'd like to have a serious discussion on this.

I have a very good friend. In his youth he was a Marine sniper. Saw combat, did some very intense things. He laughs about pissing in his pants in fear things because he literally experienced it and literally pissed in his pants from fear. But, afterward he returned to life and went on with life.

A few years later the US went to Iraq. He signed up in the Army and went. Received a CIB, Bronze Star and Purple Heart. He came back from Iraq with PTSD. One day he caught himself thinking about killing his wife and then eating his gun. As he puts it. He intellectually realized those thought weren't right. So he sought help.

He went to the VA and was cured. He said it was marvelous. He first realized why Iraq gave him PTSD and doing scary stuff as a sniper didn't was because as a sniper, he was in control. As a sniper he set the pace of the battle and he set the outline of the killing and dieing. In Iraq, he was constantly reacting to a battle pace set by others. Even when he went home at night after a battle he never knew when mortar rounds would be chucked over the perimeter to which he'd have to react. So 18 months in total reaction stress.

So it was the stress from not having control of the stress in Iraq that caused the PTSD while just plane ol scary I might die but I'll die running the battle as a sniper didn't cause PTSD.

The way the VA cured his PTSD was with group therapy. He pretty much said he'd hear old guys talk about what it was like on Guadalcanal and Iwo Jima and he'd think to himself, my god, I'm such a pussy compared to them. It literally gave him back the control and cured his PTSD.

I don't see a whole lot of difference between a rape trigger and my bud thinking about eating his gun. Same thing. Trauma and lack of control during the trauma. I don't even want to suggest a comparison of the extent of the trauma. My friend's Purple Heart came as they were picking shrapnel out of his brain and realized it was actually the bone fragments from his buddy sitting next to him when the bomb went off. We all understand rape is extreme as well. We've all heard descriptions. So, I don't want to go there.

But what I'd like to consider is what, if anything, the class was responsible for with regard to the woman's trauma? My bud sought help where help was available. I assume the woman rape victim had help available as well. At some point isn't it each of their responsibilty to deal with the trauma and avail themselves of available help? When should it be a shared trauma the whole of society is responsible for reacting to?

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 407
RE: News from the Society for the Perpetually Offended - 5/13/2015 7:06:50 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
But....making decisions and deriding what a raped womans triggers should or shouldnt be...is vile.

Let's set aside your own scorn for others and focus on your concern for the victims of rape and apply them in a college setting.



Yeah i think not.....look in the mirror.
ive worked with domestic abuse, rapes and resultant suicides, for years.
Not in college kids and not in the us. My own daughter is in uni right now, she helps run a safety program for students.....they had an alarming number of vicious, as in stabbing, rapes. The program has worked. Rapes and physical attacks are down, on men as well as women. They also have qualified staff to deal with people with issues .
they dont have them in the us?
Idont disagree that this story is.....a mountain out a molehill to me personally, but im 53, not 18-24
I do however know what its like to have been violated and have strange triggers.
I know how to deal with them now, but for years i didnt have a clue.
it is what it is
But that's just it...it IS a mountain out of a molehill.

Yet...people expect their molehill to be "respected", "accomodated", allowed for", "taken care of". While the programs you mention are effective...and I'd be willing to bet that the college mentioned has at least one or two of them...what's to be done with a student like this? Class disruption o.k.? Bringing in the Multicultural Affairs Department?

At what point does someone say..."Ever so sorry about what happened to you...we'll put you in our program...but you cannot be allowed to throw off the schedules of 29999 other people?".


< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 5/13/2015 7:10:28 PM >

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RE: News from the Society for the Perpetually Offended - 5/13/2015 7:18:05 PM   
HunterCA


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Sorta my point. Or, not sorta at all.

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RE: News from the Society for the Perpetually Offended - 5/14/2015 12:50:48 AM   
DaddySatyr


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Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Also to be considered is the fact that there is no vivid and detailed depiction of rape and sexual assault in the myth. Here's the scene: Cupid (using the Latin names) shoots Dis with an arrow at the bidding of his mother Venus, who wants Dis to fall in love with Cere's daughter, Proserpine.

"And Ceres’s daughter too, Proserpine, will be a virgin if we allow it, since she hopes to be like them. But you, if you delight in our shared kingdom, can mate the goddess to her uncle." So Venus spoke: he undid his quiver, and at his mother’s bidding took an arrow, one from a thousand, and none was sharper, more certain, or better obeyed the bow. Then he bent the pliant tips against his knee, and with his barbed arrow struck Dis in the heart. ~Source

From that follows the rape of Proserpine (trigger warning):

While Proserpine was playing in this glade, and gathering violets or radiant lilies, while with girlish fondness she filled the folds of her gown, and her basket, trying to outdo her companions in her picking, Dis, almost in a moment, saw her, prized her, took her: so swift as this, is love. ~Source

Whew! Did everybody get through that okay?

K.




I feel violated.



Michael


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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

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RE: News from the Society for the Perpetually Offended - 5/14/2015 6:19:09 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA


I'd like to have a serious discussion on this.

I have a very good friend. In his youth he was a Marine sniper. Saw combat, did some very intense things. He laughs about pissing in his pants in fear things because he literally experienced it and literally pissed in his pants from fear. But, afterward he returned to life and went on with life.

A few years later the US went to Iraq. He signed up in the Army and went. Received a CIB, Bronze Star and Purple Heart. He came back from Iraq with PTSD. One day he caught himself thinking about killing his wife and then eating his gun. As he puts it. He intellectually realized those thought weren't right. So he sought help.

He went to the VA and was cured. He said it was marvelous. He first realized why Iraq gave him PTSD and doing scary stuff as a sniper didn't was because as a sniper, he was in control. As a sniper he set the pace of the battle and he set the outline of the killing and dieing. In Iraq, he was constantly reacting to a battle pace set by others. Even when he went home at night after a battle he never knew when mortar rounds would be chucked over the perimeter to which he'd have to react. So 18 months in total reaction stress.

So it was the stress from not having control of the stress in Iraq that caused the PTSD while just plane ol scary I might die but I'll die running the battle as a sniper didn't cause PTSD.

The way the VA cured his PTSD was with group therapy. He pretty much said he'd hear old guys talk about what it was like on Guadalcanal and Iwo Jima and he'd think to himself, my god, I'm such a pussy compared to them. It literally gave him back the control and cured his PTSD.

I don't see a whole lot of difference between a rape trigger and my bud thinking about eating his gun. Same thing. Trauma and lack of control during the trauma. I don't even want to suggest a comparison of the extent of the trauma. My friend's Purple Heart came as they were picking shrapnel out of his brain and realized it was actually the bone fragments from his buddy sitting next to him when the bomb went off. We all understand rape is extreme as well. We've all heard descriptions. So, I don't want to go there.

But what I'd like to consider is what, if anything, the class was responsible for with regard to the woman's trauma? My bud sought help where help was available. I assume the woman rape victim had help available as well. At some point isn't it each of their responsibilty to deal with the trauma and avail themselves of available help? When should it be a shared trauma the whole of society is responsible for reacting to?

I dont have much time this morning to go into it more, but

PTSD is a "new" designation, we are close to the same age, so Im sure you can relate to a point.
My father had it from his time in the army, used to drop to the ground and cover when a car backfired, terrible dreams and mood swings....My husband was in the british army in the "troubles" in Northern Ireland, He has it. But they didnt call it that back when....Even going back to 2003 you were branded a coward if you had"ptsd"
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/branded-a-coward-sgt-fights-for-ptsd-victims/
Vets and PTSD
http://www.veteransandptsd.com/PTSD-statistics.html
<snip>According to RAND, at least 20% of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans have PTSD and/or Depression. (Military counselors I have interviewed state that, in their opinion, the percentage of veterans with PTSD is much higher; the number climbs higher when combined with TBI.)
Other accepted studies have found a PTSD prevalence of 14%; see a complete review of PTSD prevalence studies, which quotes studies with findings ranging from 4 -17% of Iraq War veterans with post-traumatic stress disorder).
A comprehensive analysis, published in 2014, found that for PTSD: “Among male and female soldiers aged 18 years or older returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, rates range from 9% shortly after returning from deployment to 31% a year after deployment. A review of 29 studies that evaluated rates of PTSD in those who served in Iraq and Afghanistan found prevalence rates of adult men and women previously deployed ranging from 5% to 20% for those who do not seek treatment, and around 50% for those who do seek treatment. Vietnam veterans also report high lifetime rates of PTSD ranging from 10% to 31%. PTSD is the third most prevalent psychiatric diagnosis among veterans using the Veterans Affairs (VA) hospitals.”PTSD and comorbid AUD", Subst Abuse Rehabil. 2014; 5: 25–36, Ralevski, et al.
50% of those with PTSD do not seek treatment
out of the half that seek treatment, only half of them get "minimally adequate" treatment (RAND study)
19% of veterans may have traumatic brain injury (TBI)
Over 260,000 veterans from OIF and OEF so far have been diagnosed with TBI. Traumatic brain injury is much more common in the general population than previously thought: according to the CDC, over 1,700,000 Americans have a traumatic brain injury each year; in Canada 20% of teens had TBI resulting in hospital admission or that involved over 5 minutes of unconsciousness (VA surgeon reporting in BBC News)
7% of veterans have both post-traumatic stress disorder and traumatic brain injury
rates of post-traumatic stress are greater for these wars than prior conflicts
in times of peace, in any given year, about 4% (actually 3.6%) of the general population have PTSD (caused by natural disasters, car accidents, abuse, etc.)
recent statistical studies show that rates of veteran suicide are much higher than previously thought, as much as five to eight thousand a year (22 a day, up from a low of 18-a-year in 2007, based on a 2012 VA Suicide Data Report). (See suicide prevention page). Contrary to the impression many media articles give, veteran suicide rates, although definitely higher, are not astronomically higher than civilian rates. See New York Times 2013 article, "As Suicides Rise in US, Veterans are Less of total," by James Dao.
PTSD distribution between services for OND, OIF, and OEF: Army 67% of cases, Air Force 9%, Navy 11%, and Marines 13%. (Congressional Research Service, Sept. 2010)
recent sample of 600 veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan found: 14% post-traumatic stress disorder; 39% alcohol abuse; 3% drug abuse. Major depression also a problem. "Mental and Physical Health Status and Alcohol and Drug Use Following Return From Deployment to Iraq or Afghanistan." Susan V. Eisen, PhD
Oddly, statistics for veteran tobacco use are never reported alongside PTSD statistics, even though increases in rates of smoking are strongly correlated with the stress of deployment and combat, and smoking statistics show that tobacco use is tremendously damaging and costly for soldiers.
More active duty personnel die by own hand than combat in 2012 (New York Times)

Another paper from the link
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3496463/
Mental and Physical Health Status and Alcohol and Drug Use Following Return From Deployment to Iraq or Afghanistan

http://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/co-occurring/ptsd-suicide.asp
The Relationship Between PTSD and Suicide

THen we have the rape side of the equation

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in Rape Survivors
http://www.aaets.org/article178.htm

Rape related PTSD
http://www.svfreenyc.org/survivors_factsheet_43.html

Therapy used to treat Vets, helps teen rape victims
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/making-raped-teens-relive-trauma-helps-recovery-study-says/2013/12/25/9a5cafb6-6cec-11e3-a523-fe73f0ff6b8d_story.html

In no way am I suggesting that the military PTSD sufferers are better off than rape victims.
The VA should be there to help every single member coming back with PTSD symptoms, the sad truth is they dont.
And rape victims many of whom never report their rapes suffer in silence and ignorance unless they can get into a badly decomposed mental health system, or have the presence of mind to not constantly carry the guilt and shame of being bodily and mentally violated and opening it up to diminishing "free therapy".
Suicides are enormous in either case.
Have to go now, but I will be back if you were serious....
have a good one.


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Profile   Post #: 411
RE: News from the Society for the Perpetually Offended - 5/14/2015 6:20:50 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


I feel violated.


Michael




Im sure none of us are surprised.

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RE: News from the Society for the Perpetually Offended - 5/14/2015 10:01:14 AM   
HunterCA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA


At some point isn't it each of their responsibilty to deal with the trauma and avail themselves of available help? When should it be a shared trauma the whole of society is responsible for reacting to?




THen we have the rape side of the equation


In no way am I suggesting that the military PTSD sufferers are better off than rape victims.
The VA should be there to help every single member coming back with PTSD symptoms, the sad truth is they dont.
And rape victims many of whom never report their rapes suffer in silence and ignorance unless they can get into a badly decomposed mental health system, or have the presence of mind to not constantly carry the guilt and shame of being bodily and mentally violated and opening it up to diminishing "free therapy".
Suicides are enormous in either case.
Have to go now, but I will be back if you were serious....
have a good one.



I'm very much aware that the VA hasn't ever fulfilled promises to Vets.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/defense/who-really-broke-veterans-affairs-20140520

And I am aware that when the Vietnam Vets returned home they were not treated well.


https://cherrieswriter.wordpress.com/2013/11/26/the-homecoming-for-vietnam-veterans/

But, I haven't really seen any instances of Vets with PTSD being described as cowards as late as 2003. Perhaps the circles I tend to congregate in are different. From what I've seen, and I mean no disrespect to anyone here by saying this, that once the left began to see they were losing votes by treating Vets as they were, that sort of thing stopped. It all became a faux hate the war love the Warriors sorta thing.

But, my question was, when is it the responsibility of society to compensate for the sufferers? Certainly, a car back firing and a Vet dropping to cover can't be blamed on the car. Why, then, would a classic piece of literature be blamed for a rape trigger and should the class, the university, or society at large be made to alter itself in order to not trigger an event?

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Profile   Post #: 413
RE: News from the Society for the Perpetually Offended - 5/14/2015 10:31:25 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


~ FR ~

Classical mythology is just too much for some students at Columbia...

During the week spent on Ovid’s “Metamorphoses,” the class was instructed to read the myths of Persephone and Daphne, both of which include vivid depictions of rape and sexual assault. As a survivor of sexual assault, the student described being triggered while reading such detailed accounts of rape throughout the work. However, the student said her professor focused on the beauty of the language and the splendor of the imagery when lecturing on the text. As a result, the student completely disengaged from the class discussion as a means of self-preservation. She did not feel safe in the class. ~Columbia Spectator

The above is just one example of how the Literature Humanities core is full of "triggering and offensive" texts of "exclusion and oppression" that "transgress" student identities.

Luckily, the university's Multicultural Affairs Advisory Board is on the case.

K.


The trigger was in the student's mind, not in the text.

_____________________________

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"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: News from the Society for the Perpetually Offended - 5/14/2015 10:33:22 AM   
Lucylastic


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Not in my circles....news article , because it happens and still is, no matter your "circles" LMFAO
Heres the story again....

They call him the angry guy now. Even his friends. And at this moment, on a snowy evening when he should be home, putting his son to bed, Andrew Pogany is, in fact, ticked off.

He sits with a soldier in a law office. The man has brought with him a pile of medical files, and another desperate story: Sent off to war to fight for his country. Diagnosed, now, with post-traumatic stress disorder. Yet the Army, the soldier tells Pogany, is drawing up papers to discharge him in a way that could mean no medical benefits.

The soldier confides he thinks about killing himself. All the time, he says.

Pogany makes sure he has his cell number. Then he copies the medical records, and recommends a book by a Vietnam veteran turned Zen monk. The man once helped Pogany through his own tough times. Maybe the monk's words will help this guy hang on.

Two hours behind closed doors, then a handshake and the soldier leaves. Pogany seethes.

"Disgusting," he fumes. "This is so disgusting."

Yes, Andrew Pogany is angry again. But he shrugs off such labels. Better to be called angry than to be branded a coward by the very military he signed up to serve, as the Army did to him back in 2003.

When the military tried to prosecute him, anger motivated Pogany to fight. When he began thinking about taking his own life, anger helped quiet the despair and kept him from getting a gun. When service members like this one started coming to him for help, anger drove him to fight on, for them.

He likes to say that the "anger monkey" saved him. He'll need that anger to have a shot at saving this soldier, too.

Nov. 6, 2003. Pogany sat in his old house in Colorado Springs, watching CNN. Suddenly his own face appeared on the screen alongside that of Jessica Lynch, as Paula Zahn asked the country a question:

"So what makes a hero a hero, and a coward a coward?"

Lynch, the former Army supply clerk rescued after being captured by Iraqi forces, was, of course, the hero.

Pogany was the man with the brand: the coward.

We were just eight months into the war in Iraq. The now-common stories of combat stress, soldiers committing suicide, guys coming home and getting into trouble with the law, the military grappling with how to deal with it all, weren't yet all over the news.

Pogany, the coward, was.

He deployed to Iraq in September 2003, a 32-year-old staff sergeant trained in intelligence and interrogation. Based at Fort Carson in Colorado Springs, he volunteered to go to war with a team of Green Berets when another soldier couldn't.

Then, only a few days in-country, Pogany saw the shredded body of a gunned-down Iraqi. He had what he thought was a panic attack - vomiting, hallucinations. A psychologist concluded he'd had a normal combat stress reaction and recommended rest, then back to duty.

Instead, Pogany's commanders shipped him back to Fort Carson, and he was charged with "cowardly conduct as a result of fear," a crime punishable by death under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The last such conviction in the Army occurred during the Vietnam War.

Pogany wasn't convicted. He and his attorney produced findings that showed the breakdown was likely a reaction to the anti-malaria drug Lariam, which has side effects that may include paranoia and hallucinations. The Army eventually dropped all charges, finding Pogany had "a medical problem that requires care and treatment."

In April 2005, Pogany was medically retired from the Army, with full benefits.

He tells the story now, in 2010, in an almost bored voice. He's tired of telling it. That's obvious. Don't people know it by now?

Didn't his fiancee's relatives call him "the famous guy" when they met at a Christmas party? Wasn't his application for a police job once rejected because his "background" wasn't suitable for employment? He took "background" to mean: "where they falsely accused me of being a coward."

Borrowing from a Buddhist tenet, Pogany says he longer attaches to, or detaches from, his story. He's even somewhat thankful for it, because it - and all the stuff that came with that terrible brand - made him who he is today.

He remembers the Army coming to his house and confiscating his gun and then assigning him to sweep parking lots, pick up cigarette butts, and clean toilets. He endured by working with his lawyer to research military regulations and learn the medical retirement process inside and out. He studied the bible of psychiatry, the "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders," which still sits within arm's reach of his desk at his home near downtown Denver.

He had to fight to clear his name even while trying to figure out what was wrong with him. There were medical tests, treatment for Lariam toxicity and, eventually, sessions with a therapist, yoga classes, studies in Buddhism.

"Life in itself became combat for me," he says. "I did exactly what they train us to do: Assess the enemy situation ... and figure out how I can outmaneuver" these guys.

He also learned what it meant to feel true despair, to sit alone in his bedroom, getting comfortable with the idea of shooting himself just to make it all end. And he discovered how vital it was to have someone to turn to in those times.

His lawyer, Richard Travis, remembers the phone calls, and the tears.

"He was just treated so poorly. It's kind of like when you've got the nice loyal dog and you start kicking him around and the dog looks at you like, `What are you doing? What did I do to deserve this?"'

Eventually, that dog might bite.

Was there ever some deliberate pledge to not let it happen to anyone else? Not exactly; Pogany just needed a job.

Steve Robinson, the former executive director of the National Gulf War Resource Center, stepped in and asked Pogany to

work as an advocate on behalf of soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Robinson's instructions: Find people who need help. And help them.

"There's something very empowering about helping yourself and then turning around and using that energy to help other people. That," says Robinson, "is the story of Andrew."

=

The soldier isn't five minutes out of the law office when Pogany begins formulating a battle plan.

First step: an e-mail to the top commander at Fort Carson. "`Request emergency meeting with you because your commanders ... are actively engaged in causing suicides.' Or something like that. See how he responds," Pogany says.

He's in mission mode again. It began the moment he spoke with the soldier by phone a few days earlier. A counselor in Colorado Springs apparently gave the man Pogany's name.

"The coward" has become the one to call if a service member may be getting the shaft.

By now, Pogany can't even count how many cases he's worked or soldiers he's met. Hundreds, he estimates. A few guys he advised while going through his own medical retirement started referring people to him. And the calls and e-mails kept coming.

There were mothers begging for help for sons back from war. Wives wondering what was wrong with their husbands, and not sure how to get military commanders to listen.

People like Teresa Mischke, who says her husband, Darren, came back from his second deployment to Iraq in 2006 a changed man. In March 2007, Darren was arrested in Colorado Springs on a domestic violence charge after jumping on top of Teresa's car. He pleaded guilty, and suddenly faced an Army discharge.

Teresa says she went to Darren's commanders for help, to no avail. Then she got Pogany's number.

"He would go to the general," she recalls. " He would downright say, `Hey, you cannot do this. If you do this, we'll do a, b, c."'

Doctors eventually diagnosed Darren with PTSD and a brain injury. Pogany's old lawyer took on the domestic abuse charge, and the case was dismissed. He remains in the Army, assigned now to Fort Carson's Warrior Transition Battalion, which aims to rehabilitate wounded soldiers. Instead of a discharge without benefits, Darren is going through the medical retirement process as he continues both cognitive behavioral therapy and counseling.

Teresa's heard others criticize Pogany for "throwing rocks at Fort Carson." She says: "If somebody didn't throw rocks, where would these guys be? What if there weren't people like Andrew?"

Justin Taylor, who served three tours in Iraq and was medically retired from the Army after Pogany intervened, explains it this way: "As soldiers, you have the chain of command. You have to watch what you say. Andrew, he can play the mean cop all he wants. He was the spokesman for soldiers who were scared to say anything."

It's true that Pogany's style hasn't won him many fans at his old Army base, where he has done most of his advocacy work - first with Robinson's organization, then as an investigator with Veterans for America and the National Veterans Legal Services Program.

Col. George Brandt, the senior behavioral health officer at the base hospital at Fort Carson, questioned whether Pogany goes too far - to the point of exaggerating the facts of a case - to get action.

"I respect Andy. He has brought things to my attention where we've made a difference," Brandt said. "My issue with Mr. Pogany is a systematic misrepresentation of facts. He needs to not sacrifice his integrity to make points."

Brandt said he couldn't cite specifics or comment on individual cases, because of base policies.

Pogany is, undoubtedly, persistent. He'll e-mail not only top commanders at Carson, but Peter Chiarelli, vice chief of staff of the Army. He'll shop soldiers' stories to the media.

Robert Alvarez, a Colorado Springs therapist who has worked dozens of cases with Pogany, defends Pogany's work ethic. Alvarez says they've both walked away from cases after finding soldiers were bending the truth.

If Pogany is politically incorrect or irate, even, it's because of the stakes, Alvarez says.

"We're dealing with life or death matters. ... Let me tell you: That guy cares about soldiers. Bottom line."

=

On Pogany's night stand at home sits a carving given to him by the mother of a soldier he once helped. It's the Hindu deity Ganesha, "Lord of success and destroyer of evils and obstacles."

The Mischkes and Justin Taylor - they are success stories. And there've been others, notably a court ruling this year that allows thousands of Iraq and Afghanistan war vets to join a class-action lawsuit alleging the military denied appropriate benefits to those suffering from PTSD. Pogany helped push for the case, brought by the National Veterans Legal Services Program.

But there have also been too many tragedies, including the suicide of a soldier with whom Pogany served.

The stories become too much after a while. His blood boils because of them, because seven years after his own fight with the military brought so many issues to light, other problems remain - and others soldiers still struggle.

It's never been about payback, he says, but rather the very thing the military preaches: Duty.

"Those of us who have come home and have survived this war ... we have an obligation to help those who come home and struggle. We must help them, because if we don't ... not only are we breaking a sacred promise we've made to them, we're also dishonoring the memory of those who have not come home," Pogany says.

Last November, Pogany was hired as director of military outreach and education for the organization Give an Hour, which enlists volunteers to provide counseling to soldiers returning from war.

The advocacy work is all on the side now.

With his latest case, Pogany got that meeting with the base commander. Fort Carson doctors reviewed the soldier's case, and he's in the process of being transferred into the Warrior Transition Battalion for help and, most likely, a medical retirement.

Maybe he'll be a success story, too.

Pogany would like to step back, and focus on life and his fiancee and his baby, a smiling blue-eyed boy named Charlie. He is training another ex-military man to take on his advocacy work. And yet every time he tries to say he's "done," another sad story draws him back in.

And then he finds himself back in Colorado Springs, reviewing medical files, missing Charlie's bedtime and hoping another soldier can hang on, the way he somehow managed to hang on. By fighting.
By Pauline Arrillaga

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/branded-a-coward-sgt-fights-for-ptsd-victims/




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(in reply to HunterCA)
Profile   Post #: 415
RE: News from the Society for the Perpetually Offended - 5/14/2015 10:43:18 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Also to be considered is the fact that there is no vivid and detailed depiction of rape and sexual assault in the myth. Here's the scene: Cupid (using the Latin names) shoots Dis with an arrow at the bidding of his mother Venus, who wants Dis to fall in love with Cere's daughter, Proserpine.

"And Ceres’s daughter too, Proserpine, will be a virgin if we allow it, since she hopes to be like them. But you, if you delight in our shared kingdom, can mate the goddess to her uncle." So Venus spoke: he undid his quiver, and at his mother’s bidding took an arrow, one from a thousand, and none was sharper, more certain, or better obeyed the bow. Then he bent the pliant tips against his knee, and with his barbed arrow struck Dis in the heart. ~Source

From that follows the rape of Proserpine (trigger warning):

While Proserpine was playing in this glade, and gathering violets or radiant lilies, while with girlish fondness she filled the folds of her gown, and her basket, trying to outdo her companions in her picking, Dis, almost in a moment, saw her, prized her, took her: so swift as this, is love. ~Source

Whew! Did everybody get through that okay?

K.

Clearly there were two victims here. The first one was Dis: no man can withstand Cupid's arrows.


In any case, the gods, being spiritually far more strongly connected to the Divine than mortal man, were to the same degree far more subject to fate than mortal man. What occurred between those gods was destined to happen, each of them being an instrument of the Divine.

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"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 416
RE: News from the Society for the Perpetually Offended - 5/14/2015 10:53:51 AM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Not in my circles....news article , because it happens and still is, no matter your "circles" LMFAO
Heres the story again....








Instead, Pogany's commanders shipped him back to Fort Carson, and he was charged with "cowardly conduct as a result of fear," a crime punishable by death under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The last such conviction in the Army occurred during the Vietnam War.

Pogany wasn't convicted. He and his attorney produced findings that showed the breakdown was likely a reaction to the anti-malaria drug Lariam, which has side effects that may include paranoia and hallucinations. The Army eventually dropped all charges, finding Pogany had "a medical problem that requires care and treatment."

In April 2005, Pogany was medically retired from the Army, with full benefits.


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/branded-a-coward-sgt-fights-for-ptsd-victims/






Seems as if your article argues against you. First, it's something the Army hasn't charged anyone with since Vietnam. Which is pretty much in line with what I said. Second, your case turned out in line with what I said in the end. You may be able to argue the army was a huge beauracratic ass. I'd certainly not want to go to trial defending myself against a charge of cowardice. But, in the end it appears I was correct. So I fail to see why your jab was necessary. Unless, of course, you just like to jab.

And, none of it that I see addresses the question I asked some pages back. When is this the responsibility of the class, university, or society at large other than to offer treatment when treatment is needed.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 417
RE: News from the Society for the Perpetually Offended - 5/14/2015 3:39:17 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
Should have known....ahhh well.

if there was treatment easily available, it would be a start.
there isnt.



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(in reply to HunterCA)
Profile   Post #: 418
RE: News from the Society for the Perpetually Offended - 5/14/2015 5:18:12 PM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Should have known....ahhh well.

if there was treatment easily available, it would be a start.
there isnt.




What is your huff for this time? My original question in post 406 is still my question in post 416. Did you somehow think you had derailed the question?

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 419
RE: News from the Society for the Perpetually Offended - 5/15/2015 2:38:19 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
I answered your question.
there isnt treatment easily available.
simple.

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\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
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<) )> WOMAN
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Dont Hate Love

(in reply to HunterCA)
Profile   Post #: 420
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