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RE: Trust is a lie in the BDSM world - 7/15/2006 9:20:02 AM   
losttreasure


Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rose442

How is that a trusting relationship?


*sighs*  Rose... it isn't.

We all talk about the necessity of trust in relationships... about earning it, bestowing it, gaining it, placing it... but far too often we don't stop to think about what exactly it is.

The dictionary defines trust as "firm reliance on the integrity, ability, or character of a person or thing."

Think about what exactly that means for a minute... firm reliance (what you must have)... integrity, ability, or character (what he must have).

As you cannot make him have integrity, ability, or character, you can’t be responsible for his portion of the equation; focus instead on what you must have... firm reliance. 

Firm means strong and steadfast... securely fixed.  Reliance is the state of being confident... without doubt. 

In essence, you must feel as if you know.

So... trust requires knowledge.

People do generally extend what we refer to as a measure of trust... benefit of the doubt, if you will... to those we do not know.  But this measure of trust is tentative, at best, and is easily shaken or withdrawn.

With communication and interaction we gain knowledge of a prospective partner.  As we learn of their integrity, abilities and character, we also see reliability in their actions and responses... we become familiar with how they will think and react in given situations. 

When a prospective partner consistently behaves as we expect, our perceptions of them are reinforced... when we feel and see evidence that our knowledge is based on open and honest communication, we grow confident that our perceptions are accurate... and in our eyes, they become trust-worthy.

This is when trust really begins.

And this relationship you speak of doesn't even begin to touch it.

< Message edited by losttreasure -- 7/15/2006 9:22:57 AM >

(in reply to rose442)
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RE: Trust is a lie in the BDSM world - 7/15/2006 9:28:24 AM   
SexyRed


Posts: 529
Joined: 8/19/2004
Status: offline 		I really dislike the term "high maintenance". It has come to be a catch-all phrase to connote someone who is a challenge, empowered, has a strong opinion, assertive, takes too long to get dressed to go out, wears make up and has great hair,  or in the OP's case, someone who is simply questioning the balance of her own relationship.

To the OP, as others have stated, trust is not a matter of the BDSM world, it should be inherent in any relationship that one has in life, period.


< Message edited by SexyRed -- 7/15/2006 9:29:24 AM >

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RE: Trust is a lie in the BDSM world - 7/15/2006 9:28:44 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		Man, you're just having a hell of a day...

(in reply to rose442)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Trust is a lie in the BDSM world - 7/15/2006 9:32:20 AM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure


And this relationship you speak of doesn't even begin to touch it.


Although we can choose to -assume- from the OPs post that this is the case, we do not -know- that this relationship does not begin to touch trust, from the dominant individual's perspective. We have no idea what agreements were in place at the beginning of this, nor what the self-professed slave in this situation acceeded to under the terms of her surrender.

If she agreed that her Master would be allowed anything he desired, this, to me, would include his own designations in terms of privacy -- that he could keep anything private that he desired, that he could act as he pleased, and that he could do as he wished with his property.

If a person wishes to have different parameters in place, it is up to that person to be completely clear about what he or she expects. It is senseless, after the fact, to look at an agreement and say "I don't like this part -- it isn't "fair", and I don't want it." after one has already agreed to it. The proper choice, when one realizes such a thing, is to speak with the other individual(s) involved, and re-negotiate -- or walk away from the situation if it is intolerable.

In our household, our servants do not have the right to demand complete transparency from us. We keep things private as we see fit, and the servants either sign or verbally acknowledge their understanding of this when they contract with us. (We are, even with our temporary servants, moving away from ANY verbal contracting, though -- too easy to forget later what one agreed to). Get it spelled out -- talk it through. If the only thing the person wants is complete obedience without question, and a person can't abide by that, this is NOT a workable situation... and it -won't- magically change once a person is in the situation... it will just become a thorn in the footpad, developing its own esoteric "inflammation" and "infection", and will pollute the whole relationship.

Some people DO manage to have relationships without full disclosure that are healthy and happy -- and without knowing exactly what this young woman (the OP) agreed to in writing or by action, we have no way of knowing whether this is a deceitful act or just a hasty acceptance of unacceptable terms just to be in a relationship.

ZWD

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"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
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(in reply to losttreasure)
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RE: Trust is a lie in the BDSM world - 7/15/2006 9:49:56 AM   
Caretakr


Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyRed

I really dislike the term "high maintenance". It has come to be a catch-all phrase to connote someone who is a challenge, empowered, has a strong opinion, assertive, takes too long to get dressed to go out, wears make up and has great hair,  or in the OP's case, someone who is simply questioning the balance of her own relationship.

To the OP, as others have stated, trust is not a matter of the BDSM world, it should be inherent in any relationship that one has in life, period.



It can also denote someone who's such a huge and dramaitc pain in the ass, that it's not worth the bother.

(in reply to SexyRed)
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RE: Trust is a lie in the BDSM world - 7/15/2006 9:59:04 AM   
losttreasure


Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing


quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure


And this relationship you speak of doesn't even begin to touch it.


...we do not -know- that this relationship does not begin to touch trust...


ZWD, I do understand the point that you are making, and it is well taken.  However, my comment was not to elaborate on the OP's contractual obligations.

The OP asked how the described relationship could be trusting.  I had hoped to make clear that "relationships" are not what is trusting, but rather the individuals interacting within them are either trusting or trust-worthy.

It is also not my place to judge whether the dominant in this case is trust-worthy, but I do believe it is obvious from the OP that the other partner is indeed lacking trust in the dominant.

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Trust is a lie in the BDSM world - 7/15/2006 10:12:30 AM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure


It is also not my place to judge whether the dominant in this case is trust-worthy, but I do believe it is obvious from the OP that the other partner is indeed lacking trust in the dominant.



Agreed completely.

For the OP... to take this to the next leve, the one who is finding trust failing needs to be the one to decide what to -do- about the failing trust, rather than blaming it completely on actions of another (at which point, it moves out of our control, and we become a victim to the circumstance, rather than a shaper of our own destiny).

It is easy to externalize the process of realizing that something is wrong, discovering where the problem seems to lie and finding a resolution, and instead, to blame another person for "making" us feel a certain way or for disappointing us in our expectations... it is harder to look inside of ourselves to see what buttons were pushed, and decide what we want to do about the feelings that the situation is bringing to the surface. In doing so, we must remember how our own actions and our own failure to grasp the immensity of something like "complete servitude" might have contributed to our own sorrow and dis-satisfaction with the situations we find ourselves in. We must also remember that unspoken expectations about another person are -our- dreams, and may bear no resemblence to how that person sees him or herself, or to the behaviors that that person exhibits. Until an expectation is spoken, it has no bearing on the other person's end of a relationship -- only when it is spoken does the other person have the capacity to accept or refute the expectation -- or to agree to work towards the fulfillment of that expectation for another.

People enter into relationships -expecting- that the other person will be "trustworthy", in the way that each of us defines "trustworthy" for ourselves. Without discussing those expectations, there is no foundation from which to determine what is "trustworthy" behavior and what is not. Even societally imprinted expectations like "don't kill or maim" are not universal.

ZWD



_____________________________


"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
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(in reply to losttreasure)
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RE: Trust is a lie in the BDSM world - 7/15/2006 10:16:08 AM   
SexyRed


Posts: 529
Joined: 8/19/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyRed

I really dislike the term "high maintenance". It has come to be a catch-all phrase to connote someone who is a challenge, empowered, has a strong opinion, assertive, takes too long to get dressed to go out, wears make up and has great hair,  or in the OP's case, someone who is simply questioning the balance of her own relationship.

To the OP, as others have stated, trust is not a matter of the BDSM world, it should be inherent in any relationship that one has in life, period.



It can also denote someone who's such a huge and dramaitc pain in the ass, that it's not worth the bother.


True, but the term seems to be thrown about too easily whenever anyone is challenged by something that requires them to think or to work at a relationship.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Trust is a lie in the BDSM world - 7/15/2006 10:18:54 AM   
vield


Posts: 354
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I see there have been many very thoughtful replies to this thread, with a lot of good advice.

I also feel that if you think honesty is not present in a person, you have no business submitting to them.

No one is your master or mistress unless you willingly and knowingly accept them as such, and your consent to submit to them can be withdrawn by you at any time whether the other likes that or not.

I have no problem with the sentiments expressed in your quote, however I advise you to be sure about a person before you grant them that degree of submission.

I certainly do feel that if you truly believe trust is a lie in the BD/SM world, that you need to remove yourself from this world.

Honesty and consensuality are essential parts of my BD/SM world.

vield

(in reply to rose442)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Trust is a lie in the BDSM world - 7/15/2006 10:19:00 AM   
MrDiscipline44


Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rose442

How can anyone have trust in a relationship. When honesty is 1 sided. When you have a sub that tells all that she does, everyone she talks to, and everything that is said in her life.
 
But then you have a Dom that hides stuff, tells you it is none of your business what He does, or who He does it with. Who He talks to or what He says to them. Keeps secrets. How is that a trusting relationship? As far as I am concerned there cannot be a trusting relationship in this lifestyle if a Dom doesn't have to be honest with His sub/slave and hide stuff.
My rant is done for the moment.
rose442
If this was agreed upon by the sub/slave at the beginning of the relationship then the sub/slave has only themselves to blame. Not the lifestyle choice.

_____________________________

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Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

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(in reply to rose442)
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RE: Trust is a lie in the BDSM world - 7/15/2006 10:26:08 AM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		rose,
I am curious as to who the wonderful Dom is that you talk about in your profile? And does he know about your post here on Collarme?

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Boycott Whales!

(in reply to rose442)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Trust is a lie in the BDSM world - 7/15/2006 10:33:30 AM   
Daddysredhead


Posts: 23574
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I would suggest that the problem is not with the lifestyle but with the individual.


I second this. 

It is not fair or accurate to paint with such a broad brush and discredit the trusting relationships that do exist in the bdsm community. 

To the OP, you do not speak for me.

_____________________________

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Do not challenge me to a battle of wits & come to fight unarmed.

Are you really that stupid? ~ Bless your heart

13th doughnut


(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Trust is a lie in the BDSM world - 7/15/2006 10:35:09 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		High maintenance is far too costly. Done it once and won't do it again. Better to let someone else have all the hassle.

Hell, I'd pay first before I ever have another high maintenance woman on my arm. Thinking about it, I'd live in a monastry first.

(in reply to SexyRed)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Trust is a lie in the BDSM world - 7/15/2006 11:00:17 AM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline 		Yes this is poetry.. but I think it fits very well in this thread (but move it if you must)

                             AFTER AWHILE
                                  
                                  
             After awhile you learn the subtle difference
             between holding a hand and chaining a soul
            and you learn that love doesn't mean leaning
              and company doesn't always mean security.
                                 
         And you begin to learn that kisses aren't contracts
                    and presents aren't promises
                and you begin to accept your defeats
               with your head up and your eyes ahead
        with the grace of a woman, not the grief of a child.
                                 
           And you learn to build all your roads on today
        because tomorrow's ground is too uncertain for plans
        and futures have a way of falling down in mid-flight.
           
                After awhile you learn that even sunshine
                      burns if you get too much
                    so you plant your own garden
            and decorate your own soul instead of waiting
                  for someone to bring you flowers.
                                 
              And you learn that you really can endure
                     that you really are strong
                    and you really do have worth
                            and you learn
                            and you learn
                   with every goodbye, you learn.
                                 
                 by Veronica A. Shoffstall, New York

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


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RE: Trust is a lie in the BDSM world - 7/15/2006 11:07:10 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyRed

I really dislike the term "high maintenance". It has come to be a catch-all phrase to connote someone who is a challenge, empowered, has a strong opinion, assertive, takes too long to get dressed to go out, wears make up and has great hair,  or in the OP's case, someone who is simply questioning the balance of her own relationship.


Not to hijack the thread but...there is a difference between someone who is a challenge and who constantly challenges the dominant to prove he's 'worthy' of her;  there is a difference between someone whose submission empowers them and someone who sees their submission as only a means to control the man who dominates her; there is a difference between someone who has strong, passionate opinions about something and someone who thinks that her opinion is the only right one;  there is a difference between someone who takes too long to get dressed to go out for a special occasion and someone who takes too long to get dressed to go out, no matter where they're going OR who simply didn't bother to get started soon enough and can't understand their partner's impatience; there is a difference between someone who wears make-up and great hair and someone who thinks of their canvas and hair and takes an ordinate amount of time working upon this canvas; there is a difference between someone who recognizes and is given the opportunity to question what their master is doing and one who states that she " is Masters, heart, mind, soul, and body...to use as Master wishes, when Master wishes to do so."

quote:

To the OP, as others have stated, trust is not a matter of the BDSM world, it should be inherent in any relationship that one has in life, period.


Agreed...trust, or lack of it, is not an issue exclusive to the BDSM world.

(in reply to SexyRed)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Trust is a lie in the BDSM world - 7/15/2006 11:13:13 AM   
subjected2006


Posts: 248
Joined: 1/20/2006
Status: offline 		i think that to trust someone is always a decision..
made on a variety of clues we pick up on...
and i think that when it comes to trusting a Master..
it becomes a leap of faith...
"deliberate" ignorance is the ultimate surrender"
edited because i omitted the most important word

< Message edited by subjected2006 -- 7/15/2006 11:58:22 AM >

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a rose is a rose..

(in reply to losttreasure)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Trust is a lie in the BDSM world - 7/15/2006 11:21:16 AM   
losttreasure


Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Not to hijack the thread but...


I agree that there is quite a difference.  But, I'm also inclined to believe that often when the descriptor "high maintenance" is used, it's more a case of simple incompatibility.

Okay... who's going to start the thread about high maintenance doms. 

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Trust is a lie in the BDSM world - 7/15/2006 12:01:15 PM   
subjected2006


Posts: 248
Joined: 1/20/2006
Status: offline 		ok
every one
go back..see the correction made in the quote...
take a deep breath..
every body ok?


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a rose is a rose..

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RE: Trust is a lie in the BDSM world - 7/15/2006 12:06:03 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Not to hijack the thread but...


I agree that there is quite a difference.  But, I'm also inclined to believe that often when the descriptor "high maintenance" is used, it's more a case of simple incompatibility.

Okay... who's going to start the thread about high maintenance doms. 


 Lashra did.

I agree that in many cases, it is simply a difference of opinion...what is high-maintenance to me may be a 'piece of cake' to another dominant.  Perhaps, as CrappyDom noted on another thread, here too is a case where evolution may be involved...don't know for sure.

(in reply to losttreasure)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Trust is a lie in the BDSM world - 7/15/2006 12:33:01 PM   
SexyRed


Posts: 529
Joined: 8/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Not to hijack the thread but...


I agree that there is quite a difference.  But, I'm also inclined to believe that often when the descriptor "high maintenance" is used, it's more a case of simple incompatibility.

Okay... who's going to start the thread about high maintenance doms. 


 Lashra did.

I agree that in many cases, it is simply a difference of opinion...what is high-maintenance to me may be a 'piece of cake' to another dominant.  Perhaps, as CrappyDom noted on another thread, here too is a case where evolution may be involved...don't know for sure.


Not to hijack again, but can you clarify what evolution has to do with this? Just curious....and I agree with losttreasure, most of the time high maintenance is just due to incompatibility and is therefore an easy word to toss around as opposed to recognizing lack of synergy intellectually, emotionally or physically.

_____________________________

A trucker will slow down for a blonde, stop for a brunette, but back up 500 yards for a redhead!


(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 40
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