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David Simon on Baltimore Policing - 4/30/2015 9:03:32 AM

cloudboy

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https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/29/david-simon-on-baltimore-s-anguish

In some ways this comports with Kana's posts that are now missing after the thread got yanked.

According to Simon, the drug war lowered policing from the higher art of investigation / serve and protect to occupation, harassment, crime stat stuffing, and a total bypass of probable cause. What he describes also mirrors the revenue collection tactics we saw in Ferguson.

I can't say I heard anything like this commentary in the national TV news or in other print sources that I read.

Post #: 1

RE: David Simon on Baltimore Policing - 4/30/2015 9:14:15 AM

markyugen

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Excellent read, thanks!

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 2

RE: David Simon on Baltimore Policing - 4/30/2015 11:07:45 AM

tj444

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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/29/david-simon-on-baltimore-s-anguish

In some ways this comports with Kana's posts that are now missing after the thread got yanked.

According to Simon, the drug war lowered policing from the higher art of investigation / serve and protect to occupation, harassment, crime stat stuffing, and a total bypass of probable cause. What he describes also mirrors the revenue collection tactics we saw in Ferguson.

I can't say I heard anything like this commentary in the national TV news or in other print sources that I read.

cops troll the streets scanning license plates, they go onto hotel parking lots doing that too, they look for any excuse to pull someone over.. that happens in the cities i have been to.. Not long ago I saw a hispanic on a bike riding down the sidewalk in downtown Houston.. cop tells him to stop and show him ID.. he says he doesnt have his ID on him.. cop tells him if he is riding a bike he needs to carry ID.. (huh? no TX requirement to carry ID when on a bike that i can find!) there are so many laws (or cops perversions of laws) that most people dont even know..

I watch Marc J. Victor's vids on youtube, he's a lawyer in AZ and he does lectures, etc on what you should do if you are stopped by a cop (while he is talking about AZ, most of what he says pretty much applies to anywhere in police state USA).. What goes on in Baltimore or Ferguson, etc in policing is spreading to other cities, imo..

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Post #: 3

RE: David Simon on Baltimore Policing - 4/30/2015 1:46:41 PM

cloudboy

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I like the way David Simon talks about "real policing" v. stupid, pointless, brainless, harassment.

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 4

RE: David Simon on Baltimore Policing - 4/30/2015 2:44:37 PM

joether

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/29/david-simon-on-baltimore-s-anguish

In some ways this comports with Kana's posts that are now missing after the thread got yanked.

According to Simon, the drug war lowered policing from the higher art of investigation / serve and protect to occupation, harassment, crime stat stuffing, and a total bypass of probable cause. What he describes also mirrors the revenue collection tactics we saw in Ferguson.

I can't say I heard anything like this commentary in the national TV news or in other print sources that I read.

cops troll the streets scanning license plates, they go onto hotel parking lots doing that too, they look for any excuse to pull someone over.. that happens in the cities i have been to.. Not long ago I saw a hispanic on a bike riding down the sidewalk in downtown Houston.. cop tells him to stop and show him ID.. he says he doesnt have his ID on him.. cop tells him if he is riding a bike he needs to carry ID.. (huh? no TX requirement to carry ID when on a bike that i can find!) there are so many laws (or cops perversions of laws) that most people dont even know..

An why do those police officers behave that way? The model used in determining pay and promotion is simplistic and outdated. It rewards someone making many arrests but not GOOD and RIGHT arrests. The ones that make the location the police serve more stable, safe, and nice to reside in. The current model promotes overtime work and arrests. So the officer does more 'irrelevent' work while harassing the public. If you were in this position, you would be doing the same thing. So the model on how we hire, promote, and pay police officers has to change.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
I watch Marc J. Victor's vids on youtube, he's a lawyer in AZ and he does lectures, etc on what you should do if you are stopped by a cop (while he is talking about AZ, most of what he says pretty much applies to anywhere in police state USA).. What goes on in Baltimore or Ferguson, etc in policing is spreading to other cities, imo..

Yeah, follow that guy, and watch as the police keep a CLOSER eye on your words and actions. The only people seeking to avoid the police attention by doing those things, instead gives the police more motivation to pay attention to them. Which is why the professionals criminals do not do that. Hence why the prison is full of the amateurs and not the professionals. There is knowing your rights and the understanding of the law; its quite a bit different to be an asshole while doing it. I have no problem if the police need to beat down someone clearly being disrespectful to others and them (the police). Or threatening.

The police in my neck of the woods operate very professionally. During traffic stops they are patient, understanding when someone is being honest with them, and more aggressive when the person lies. They're stops are recorded and reviewed. Detail in how they went about those stops matter as much as how they were initiated. Its a requirement to hold at least a bachelor's degree from a college or university in criminal justice. In order to become a lieutenant or captain/chief of police, requires a master's degree. As such, the filtering process removes many of the potential bad apples. Even after they are hired, they are watched. Not just by their superiors, but by the towns and watchdog groups.

The really sad fact is that when our police are operating well, no one congratulate them for the effort. The caliber of police one has depends on how they are treated. We treat them to be animals and brutal people; we will get such. We treat them to be good towards mankind; we will get that too. Its easier to destroy the potted plant than to grow from seed to flower; as the saying goes.

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 5

RE: David Simon on Baltimore Policing - 5/1/2015 5:58:18 AM

Sanity

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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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New Black Panther Head: Like Founding Fathers, We Are Willing to Kill for Black Nation

Social media analysis suggests links between Baltimore and Ferguson violence

Certain community agitators tend to make the policing situation complicated

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Post #: 6

RE: David Simon on Baltimore Policing - 5/1/2015 7:06:55 AM

cloudboy

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Some day, not today or in quite some time, you might find information to add to a discussion.

It would help if you quit talking about what's in your own mind and zeroed in on the subject at hand (Baltimore Policing). You might also try to understand the people living in West Baltimore. But the starting point for you needs to be leaving your own mind and engaging in a subject to learn/understand it.

To do this, you have to start with the subject. In this case it is Baltimore Policing. Other examples are the Blackwater convictions and hard facts about US social and economic conditions. In all these cases you never even reach the starting line of useful engagement.

I understand you have your own issues, but it's inappropriate to think all matters of the world, all facts in the universe, are served by off-topic rants.

Did the USA ruin America by repealing prohibition?

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 5/1/2015 7:21:56 AM >

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Post #: 7

RE: David Simon on Baltimore Policing - 5/1/2015 7:11:14 AM

cloudboy

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The point David Simon is making is that politicians are more concerned about the appearances of lower crime than actual crime reduction. If the populace feels safer, it will vote accordingly.

Beyond being an economic waste, the drug war is ruining relations between US populace and the police.

Let's look at Colorado? Has it tipped over into social degeneration, anarchy, and mayhem after legalizing POT?

(in reply to joether)

Post #: 8

RE: David Simon on Baltimore Policing - 5/1/2015 7:20:00 AM

HunterCA

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Joined: 6/21/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Some day, not today or in quite some time, you might find information to add to a discussion.

It would help if you quit talking about what's in your own mind and zeroed in on the subject at hand (Baltimore Policing). You might also try to understand the people living in West Baltimore. But the starting point for you needs to be leaving your own mind and engaging in a subject to learn/understand it.

To do this, you have to start with the subject. In this case it is Baltimore Policing. Other examples are the Blackwater convictions and hard facts about US social and economic conditions. In all these cases you never even reach the starting line of useful engagement.

I understand you have your own issues, but it's inappropriate to think all matters of the world, all facts in the universe, are served by off-topic rants.

Perhaps some day you'll be interested in something besides fairy dust and unobtainable utopian socialist dreams. Perhaps, then you'll choose to live in the real world. I thought Sanity's point that outside agitators coming from Fergason to Baltimore was extremely relevant to police concerns. It was a point worth including in the discussion and then you were rude.

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Post #: 9

RE: David Simon on Baltimore Policing - 5/1/2015 7:32:10 AM

HunterCA

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Probable cause was destroyed by the drug war. It happened in stages, but even in the time that I was a police reporter, which would have been the early 80s to the early 90s, the need for police officers to address the basic rights of the people they were policing in Baltimore was minimized. It was done almost as a plan by the local government, by police commissioners and mayors, and it not only made everybody in these poor communities vulnerable to the most arbitrary behavior on the part of the police officers, it taught police officers how not to distinguish in ways that they once did.

Simon's thesis.....certainly within the time frame Martin O'Malley was on the City Council.

(in reply to HunterCA)

Post #: 10

RE: David Simon on Baltimore Policing - 5/1/2015 7:45:22 AM

HunterCA

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Sorry, should have read further.

The drug war began it, certainly, but the stake through the heart of police procedure in Baltimore was MARTIN O’MALLEY3. He destroyed police work in some real respects. Whatever was left of it when he took over the police department, if there were two bricks together that were the suggestion of an edifice that you could have called meaningful police work, he found a way to pull them apart. E

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Post #: 11

RE: David Simon on Baltimore Policing - 5/1/2015 8:07:26 AM

HunterCA

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Of course when you look at this publication you see other titles such as: "Executioners vs. Veterinarians
Which do we kill more humanely, our pets or condemned prisoners?"

It's like the left needs to sit around and tell each other stories to make themselves feel bad so they can have bleeding hearts.

(in reply to HunterCA)

Post #: 12

RE: David Simon on Baltimore Policing - 5/1/2015 8:30:18 AM

cloudboy

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Joined: 12/14/2005
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It takes quite a nut-job to be Sanity's wing man on the Black Panthers.

I actually have first hand familiarity with West Baltimore as I taught Middle School there and drove through it every day. Now, I live close to it, and I actually shop in the mall that was looted. Several of my friends taught/teach public school in BALTO.

David Simon is a good source. It's not my job or an experts job to find facts that you like and fit the narratives that you want to believe. It would help if you did not want to believe anything in the first place -- for then you might be able to curiously process facts and information. Instead, Sanity could post a link that ISIS and Obama instigated the riots, and you'd run with that because it soothingly tickles your funny bone.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 5/1/2015 8:31:23 AM >

(in reply to HunterCA)

Post #: 13

RE: David Simon on Baltimore Policing - 5/1/2015 8:39:52 AM

HunterCA

Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

It takes quite a nut-job to be Sanity's wing man on the Black Panthers.

I actually have first hand familiarity with West Baltimore as I taught Middle School there and drove through it every day. Now, I live close to it, and I actually shop in the mall that was looted. Several of my friends taught/teach public school in BALTO.

David Simon is a good source. It's not my job or an experts job to find facts that you like and fit the narratives that you want to believe. It would help if you did not want to believe anything in the first place -- for then you might be able to curiously process facts and information. Instead, Sanity could post a link that ISIS and Obama instigated the riots, and you'd run with that because it soothingly tickles your funny bone.

Lol...I find it so humorous to see a liberal's reaction when he's treated the same way he just assumes is his right to treat everyone else. Just to put a fine point on your little pity party, where did I say anything about Black Panthers? Why wouldn't a discussion of the Black Panthers being racist agitators be relevant to this discussion. Oh...I know, because it uses intellect instead of emotion and we have to proceed without a bleeding heart.

So, you were close to Baltimore and that made the pity party emotions that much stronger for you. Why does that make our reasonable discussion any less? Just because it kills your pity party buzz?

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Post #: 14

RE: David Simon on Baltimore Policing - 5/1/2015 8:39:56 AM

Moderator3

Posts: 3289
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/29/david-simon-on-baltimore-s-anguish

In some ways this comports with Kana's posts that are now missing after the thread got yanked.

According to Simon, the drug war lowered policing from the higher art of investigation / serve and protect to occupation, harassment, crime stat stuffing, and a total bypass of probable cause. What he describes also mirrors the revenue collection tactics we saw in Ferguson.

I can't say I heard anything like this commentary in the national TV news or in other print sources that I read.

This post is for information only. Please do not respond here and hijack the thread. All post responding to mine will be removed.

Since this is the second time you have mentioned pulled threads and one comment stated that in ten years you had never seen that, I thought I might make my own comment.

Threads have been removed during all those ten years and there are places for each moderator that has been on staff for the last ten years, to put the threads that they pull. These are not empty sections of the forum by far.

It is preferred that threads not be removed, but there is a lot of work in processing a thread. I am not afraid of work and spend more hours a day here working than hours I am not here working. The forum isn't the only part of the site I work and even the forum can keep the lead moderator busy.

After a number of problem threads when we didn't have the dungeons relaxed moderation, full days could be soaked up working a couple threads if they were done correctly. Now, how would you like a full time job that required so much work when posters just decide that they don't have to control themselves and that its worth gold to do or say something? Your day gets ruined, but you love the site enough to volunteer your time and soon the site owns you because some just can't see the reason for working together to keep the places running smoothly. While you are doing all this, you must smile and be nice, overly nice sometimes, all while posters are not being nice to you.

Then there may be staff issues with someone that favors certain people or topics and others disagreeing and oh what a mod war we can have. They have happened. I know nobody wants to really share that, but some of the biggest upheavals on the forum included teams of people trying to get into power. If you want to know the truth of it, my opinion is that that is what nearly killed this forum. Certain posters wanted their friend in power so that the favorites game could work in their favor and then there were mod bashing threads kept alive, with people telling tales on moderators and the staff not allowed to tell the truth of the matter. This happened twice that I know of. There were some excellent moderators that got fed up and left. Remember, I have access to all the staff areas. It is obvious some of what took place.

Now, you have me. I don't care if I have to do something pertaining to my job. If I have to ban someone that has been considered a friend, I ban them. I will not allow someone to cause trouble because of who they are. I can't be bought by smiles or brown nosing and I don't care about power. It is like that dog joke. Something to the effect of, you clean my poop and you're the superior critter?

When there's poop all over a thread, I will not be cleaning it and losing my time trying to save good posts that were in response or a direct quote to some poop. I think that is fair. Don't poop all over a thread and I won't have to shovel the poop or hide it. Deal? Rather than blame staff that must do their job, you might think about those forcing them to do the job.

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Post #: 15

RE: David Simon on Baltimore Policing - 5/1/2015 8:41:56 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
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From: Sydney Australia
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Oh my! Reduced to being a cheerleader for Sanity! If there is a more salient indicator of fact-challenged intellectual and political bankruptcy, I am unaware of it.

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Post #: 16

RE: David Simon on Baltimore Policing - 5/1/2015 8:54:01 AM

HunterCA

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Joined: 6/21/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Oh my! Reduced to being a cheerleader for Sanity! If there is a more salient indicator of fact-challenged intellectual and political bankruptcy, I am unaware of it.

Let's see??? Looking at Sanity's comment and Tweaks comment.

Links to outside sources:

Sanity ====> 2
Tweak ====> 0

Insulting and stomping pretty little feet:
Sanity ====> 0
Teak =====> 2

I will commend you for "showing" your natural mean spirited nature. I'd noticed you being very passive agressive in other threads. It's better when you get it out naturally.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 17

RE: David Simon on Baltimore Policing - 5/1/2015 10:08:45 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

It takes quite a nut-job to be Sanity's wing man on the Black Panthers.

I actually have first hand familiarity with West Baltimore as I taught Middle School there and drove through it every day. Now, I live close to it, and I actually shop in the mall that was looted. Several of my friends taught/teach public school in BALTO.

David Simon is a good source. It's not my job or an experts job to find facts that you like and fit the narratives that you want to believe. It would help if you did not want to believe anything in the first place -- for then you might be able to curiously process facts and information. Instead, Sanity could post a link that ISIS and Obama instigated the riots, and you'd run with that because it soothingly tickles your funny bone.

Wow, a straw man

How surprising

Controlling the narrative means everything to you

Must suck to be you though, as you may never have that kind of control here

Others will continue to contribute to these threads as they see fit, despite your petty personal attacks, your sniping and your smears whenever someones contributions challenge your highly flawed far left narrative

Of course it matters who and what is being policed in Baltimore... Trying your best to slime anyone who brings inconvenient facts to the table doesnt help the discussion, it only damages your credibility

Honestly, I dont mind it when others goose-step to leftist propaganda, it takes two sides to have a debate.

What I dont get is why so many on your side go into fits

Monkey shit throwing, red-faced, infantile fits

Stuttering senseless gibberish about goons and thugs, attacking others for agreeing with someone etc

When someone mentions something that doesnt quite fit into your tightly constructed little far left narrative

These forums should be about expanding our minds and learning about other peoples' viewpoints, it could be a great opportunity for that kind of thing, why cant you and yours bear to tolerate a little bit of that

Frankly, its despotic

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Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

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Post #: 18

RE: David Simon on Baltimore Policing - 5/1/2015 10:22:41 AM

HunterCA

Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/01/progressives-miss-the-point-of-baltimore.html

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 19

RE: David Simon on Baltimore Policing - 5/1/2015 10:29:41 AM

joether

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
Some day, not today or in quite some time, you might find information to add to a discussion.

It would help if you quit talking about what's in your own mind and zeroed in on the subject at hand (Baltimore Policing). You might also try to understand the people living in West Baltimore. But the starting point for you needs to be leaving your own mind and engaging in a subject to learn/understand it.

To do this, you have to start with the subject. In this case it is Baltimore Policing. Other examples are the Blackwater convictions and hard facts about US social and economic conditions. In all these cases you never even reach the starting line of useful engagement.

I understand you have your own issues, but it's inappropriate to think all matters of the world, all facts in the universe, are served by off-topic rants.

Perhaps some day you'll be interested in something besides fairy dust and unobtainable utopian socialist dreams. Perhaps, then you'll choose to live in the real world. I thought Sanity's point that outside agitators coming from Fergason to Baltimore was extremely relevant to police concerns. It was a point worth including in the discussion and then you were rude.

Sanity's point is to point out there are extremist groups in America that will do anything and everything to advance a cause (i.e. their cause that shadows as someone else's). Its like those Oath Keepers holed up in southwest Oregon. Last I heard they are defending with the threat of violence anyone (i.e. the law enforcement) from properly arresting and charging those that have warrents issued. Yes, the Oath Keepers, some of whom are currently serving US Military soldiers. Whom I feel if caught should be stripped of their rank and dishonorable discharged (at best) or executed (at worst) for taking up arms against the United States of America.

That you are defending someone typically 'not with the conversation' proves cloudboy's points entirely. This is a discussion about the problems experienced and ways to improve the situation. The article clearly explains the nature of the behavior for police and ways around it. If we pay and work to have good police forces, we wont have trouble with them. If we let things slide and not fix the problems we know exists; things will get worst as time goes on.

(in reply to HunterCA)

Post #: 20

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