quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Well, you know, well, socialism just hasn't been done right yet. Doesn't prove its not the best system. It's just those mean capitalists that make it fail. Once Obama makes your Yankee dollars worthless then there will be a fair exchange rate. You just wait.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Uh, that is not marxism that is free market communism, and believe me, capitalist countries dump currencies all the time.

But why are you commenting on economics or fiscal responsibility, clearly you are unknowledgeable in these areas.

On basically the same terms I'd be willing to debate the issue but you are correct. It is not Marxism, BUT...[it] is state capitalism where the leaders simply get away with their outright kleptocracy.

As I've said, China IS THE new role model, state capitalism with about 300 million ready-to-be and most are...virtual slave labor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Uh, that is not marxism that is free market communism, and believe me, capitalist countries dump currencies all the time.

But why are you commenting on economics or fiscal responsibility, clearly you are unknowledgeable in these areas.

On basically the same terms I'd be willing to debate the issue but you are correct. It is not Marxism, BUT...[it] is state capitalism where the leaders simply get away with their outright kleptocracy.

As I've said, China IS THE new role model, state capitalism with about 300 million ready-to-be and most are...virtual slave labor.

I love how Marxist quibble. They all quibble about what is pure or perverse, but basically they all just want the same thing. Power for themselves to control those around them.

It's marxist philosophy to control the children.

Vladimir Ilich Lenin > Quotes > Quotable Quote

Vladimir Ilich Lenin
“Give me just one generation of youth, and I'll transform the whole world.”


― Vladimir Ilich Lenin

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

MR, isn't it you that believes home schooling is child abuse? I may be wrong that it was you who said that earlier. Is it because you believe all the children should be taught by the state?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Uh, that is not marxism that is free market communism, and believe me, capitalist countries dump currencies all the time.

But why are you commenting on economics or fiscal responsibility, clearly you are unknowledgeable in these areas.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

MR, isn't it you that believes home schooling is child abuse? I may be wrong that it was you who said that earlier. Is it because you believe all the children should be taught by the state?

No, never commented on it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Well, you know, well, socialism just hasn't been done right yet. Doesn't prove its not the best system. It's just those mean capitalists that make it fail. Once Obama makes your Yankee dollars worthless then there will be a fair exchange rate. You just wait.

Just how is Obama making our dollars worthless ? The dollar is still the world's reserve currency, we are seeing more exports to the world.

We still see the world literally rush to the dollar when there is turmoil and especially from 3rd world economies and more so then the Euro, it now being down to $1.12 (up from $1.05) last I looked.

Again, just another comment simply signifying a grasping at straws in any attempt to denigrate Obama (and I gather...leftist policies, they being so damaging to equities and those trillion$ in profits & dividends) and of course...without any basis in fact.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Uh, that is not marxism that is free market communism, and believe me, capitalist countries dump currencies all the time.

But why are you commenting on economics or fiscal responsibility, clearly you are unknowledgeable in these areas.

That's his move. Do you think he could comprehend the Communist Manifesto if he read it? Do you think he could explain the difference between Marxism, Leninism, and Stalinism?

For me to act like him, I'd have to start posing as an authority on Post Modernism or horticulture --- areas I know (0) about.

quote:

Venezuela has really cool speakeasy eateries for not-so-cool reasons

CARACAS (Reuters) — Follow the main road, count three traffic lights, and take a left at the third. You'll find a security post there.

"It's a white-and-blue house, the entrance is through the car park," added the email instructions. "Don't tell the guards you are coming to 'Ciboulette Prive', but on a private visit."

As with living-room restaurants that flourished in Havana in the 1990s after the fall of its Soviet benefactor, Caracas is seeing a rise in clandestine dining as inventive restaurateurs seek ways to survive economic crisis, corruption and crime.

Chefs and owners complain that operating a normal restaurant profitably has become increasingly problematic as state controls limit price increases despite roaring inflation and bribery is the only way to get permits in a timely fashion.

...

It charges 3,000 bolivars per person. That's around $7 at the black market exchange rate or $475 at Venezuela's strongest official exchange.

The bolivar amount is nearly two weeks of work at minimum wage, out of reach for average Venezuelans who have no access to dollars and for whom even simple meals out can be a distant memory.

Many now instead spend hours lining up under the hot Caribbean sun for basics like flour, chicken or milk.

Inflation eats up their purchasing power, leaving little room for nights out, let alone big purchases or travel.

"Venezuela must be one of the hardest places to do gastronomy," said the restaurant's owner, 21-year-old Emiliano, who studies business administration at Caracas' Metropolitan University. He also asked that his surname not be published...

Full article here

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

But, in general, the protective system of our day is conservative, while the free trade system is destructive. It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point. In a word, the free trade system hastens the social revolution. It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favor of free trade.

1848 (Guess Who?)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Uh, that is not marxism that is free market communism, and believe me, capitalist countries dump currencies all the time.

But why are you commenting on economics or fiscal responsibility, clearly you are unknowledgeable in these areas.

That's his move. Do you think he could comprehend the Communist Manifesto if he read it? Do you think he could explain the difference between Marxism, Leninism, and Stalinism?

For me to act like him, I'd have to start posing as an authority on Post Modernism or horticulture --- areas I know (0) about.

Wow, hateful fairy dust all over. Be still there Cloudboy. Tell me the similarity of your three systems? Other than that they all failed and they all produced states that had no consideration for anything but the power elite?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

But, in general, the protective system of our day is conservative, while the free trade system is destructive. It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point. In a word, the free trade system hastens the social revolution. It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favor of free trade.

1848 (Guess Who?)

Had someone taken you up on this offer, it would have been a good thread.

I'm afraid that's politics today, though, no one is really interested in the merits and drawbacks of Conservatism and Liberalism (as philosophies); it's well down the queue behind regurgitating the party line, which is ironic given the subject matter in this thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Uh, that is not marxism that is free market communism, and believe me, capitalist countries dump currencies all the time.

But why are you commenting on economics or fiscal responsibility, clearly you are unknowledgeable in these areas.

That's his move. Do you think he could comprehend the Communist Manifesto if he read it? Do you think he could explain the difference between Marxism, Leninism, and Stalinism?

For me to act like him, I'd have to start posing as an authority on Post Modernism or horticulture --- areas I know (0) about.

Wow, hateful fairy dust all over. Be still there Cloudboy. Tell me the similarity of your three systems? Other than that they all failed and they all produced states that had no consideration for anything but the power elite?

capitalism in America is failed. The commies are kicking our ass at it. Socialism hasn't failed, look at scandinavia, and germany and several other countries.

Socio-democratic (a mixed economy) works very well. None of these 'pure' systems have or will ever exist, particularly capitalism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

But, in general, the protective system of our day is conservative, while the free trade system is destructive. It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point. In a word, the free trade system hastens the social revolution. It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favor of free trade.

1848 (Guess Who?)

Had someone taken you up on this offer, it would have been a good thread.

I'm afraid that's politics today, though, no one is really interested in the merits and drawbacks of Conservatism and Liberalism (as philosophies); it's well down the queue behind regurgitating the party line, which is ironic given the subject matter in this thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Of course, the Scandinavian countries are small homogeneous countries where everyone wants to contribute. MNwhatever is full of shit actually. He's an old marxist who believes he knows better than anyone else. China is going to fall apart with their crony capitalism. Nobody in Europe pays for their defense, the U.S. is the only country with a system that can afford an army as well as defend Europe and much of Asia. If the US wasn't providing the defense of Europe, Europe would now either be speaking Russian or living in poverty trying to afford the marxist aspect of their idiocity. It's just old Marist dreams that have failed and the US is supporting. If you want to have a discussion about that it should be whether or not we should be protecting Europe from the failed marxist Russa.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

But, in general, the protective system of our day is conservative, while the free trade system is destructive. It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point. In a word, the free trade system hastens the social revolution. It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favor of free trade.

1848 (Guess Who?)

Had someone taken you up on this offer, it would have been a good thread.

I'm afraid that's politics today, though, no one is really interested in the merits and drawbacks of Conservatism and Liberalism (as philosophies); it's well down the queue behind regurgitating the party line, which is ironic given the subject matter in this thread.

I copy this because I have MNwhatever on hide and don't ever see his idiot quotes. You see he's and old pinko waiting for the revolution. In his mind it has to happen and it will happen. Because he hasn't seen how every time Marxism fails. I'm sure he believes that if Roosevelt hadn't come along we would have had a revolution in the '30's and hates Roosevelt for his soft socialism. He just hates and for him, the perfect system is to have hate in control and forcing people into his line so he can get the perks of running things.

Look at Scandinavia again. They can't afford cars so the national pastime is to ride bikes...everywhere. If you can't ride a bike you ride a train. Yea right how's that gonna work here? Scandinavian countries are about the size of the San Francisco peninsula. Oh, I see! That's why California what's a trillion dollar high speed rail that worthless. It's lefty it'll be like good communism in Scandinavia. That why lefties tout trains, it'll make cars obsolete in the US. Well not really. Not until we make gas so expensive Americans can't drive...cap and trade. Not until we force people to live close enough to work so they can ride a bike....smart planning. Not until we have control of how they use energy...smart grid.

It's all bogus Marxist bull shit. It's why MNwhatever is for immigration. The more that come here and live off the system the sooner the system will crash and he can take over.

Bull shit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Uh, that is not marxism that is free market communism, and believe me, capitalist countries dump currencies all the time.

But why are you commenting on economics or fiscal responsibility, clearly you are unknowledgeable in these areas.

That's his move. Do you think he could comprehend the Communist Manifesto if he read it? Do you think he could explain the difference between Marxism, Leninism, and Stalinism?

For me to act like him, I'd have to start posing as an authority on Post Modernism or horticulture --- areas I know (0) about.

Wow, hateful fairy dust all over. Be still there Cloudboy. Tell me the similarity of your three systems? Other than that they all failed and they all produced states that had no consideration for anything but the power elite?

capitalism in America is failed. The commies are kicking our ass at it. Socialism hasn't failed, look at scandinavia, and germany and several other countries.

Socio-democratic (a mixed economy) works very well. None of these 'pure' systems have or will ever exist, particularly capitalism.

Sheesh... I sort of agree, but have a completely different perspective.

I disagree that Capitalism in America has failed. No system is perfect. I believe that Corporatists have taken over both parties and have made government work for the rich.

Some examples:
ALEC - Lobbyists from many industries come to vote on legislation, which is then cut and pasted in state-level bills
Medicare Part D - Big Pharma
Bank bailouts

Again, no system is perfect. To put a fine point on it: Systems fail when people don't have freedom and opportunity. They also fail when too many people don't contribute, and therefore become a burden.

Also, No system is completely "fair". Unfortunately, too often, liberals constantly seek fairness.

If people were machines, without hopes, dreams, and desires, communism would be the perfect system.
Or, in small groups, dedicated to a single purpose (e.g. Nomadic Native American tribes), communism works well.

Communism is GREAT at dealing with the non-contributors. They just end up in labor camps. (Not so great on the freedom and opportunity part.)

With regard to Socialism... I mean it in a narrow sense (It can mean an entire system of government, OR it can simply mean that SOME parts of the economy are socialized)


It is in this latter context, that I am asserting that we are ALL socialists. It is just a matter of degree. Capitalism (American or otherwise) will never survive without a social aspect. Both parties agree on this. (Yes, many on the right, say that some of these (below) are symptoms of a Progressive plot, but the majority of today's Republican politicians say they support these issues, even if for no other reason than political survival)

Some examples:
Veterans Administration - Pure socialized medicine
Infrastructure
Minimum wage
Medicare
SNAP
SBA


ok.... Here is my point (which is just another, less Marxist way of saying what mnot is saying) :)

The RIGHT amount of socialism actually AIDS Capitalism. (And a free, capitalist society as a whole)

What is the RIGHT amount of Socialism? THAT is the debate we should be having. Rather than calling each other names.

The answer certainly is different for each nation. (A simple example, would be that certain social programs work well for a small population, but are not scalable for a large one)

So to mnot's point... I think the Scandinavian countries have found the answer to the RIGHT amount of Socialism, at least for their own countries. They have lots of wonderful, regulated free market capitalism (No that is not an oxymoron, IMO) AND they have the best healthcare (ranked toward the top of 190 countries) (socialized by the way), relatively low crime, AND median incomes that are comparable, and in at least Norway's case, far ABOVE the US.

The more opportunity, and stability people have, the better position they are to start businesses and become largely successful Capitalists. To the right's point (which is definitely valid)... What do you do with the non-contributors, who squander the opportunity given them, and remain a burden to society?

Links up the wazu for all of this, if you are interested.

America has always had (righties cover your eyes) a tradition of Socialism (starting with 18th century public schools). (Just didn't call it that)

If you are uncomfortable with the word "Socialism", find another. All I am saying is that we as Americans (left and right) all support SOME parts of the economy as being socialized to some degree. The debate we need to have is which parts, and how MUCH.

(And I am also saying that the Scandinavian countries have largely figured this out for themselves)

And once again...

No system is perfect.
No system is fair.

However, dealing with human beings, who are individual, and want to self-determine, there is no system that beats Capitalism (properly regulated, of course (What does THAT mean? Another debate we should be having instead of calling each other names)), and with a social aspect.


My .02