quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Well, you know, well, socialism just hasn't been done right yet. Doesn't prove its not the best system. It's just those mean capitalists that make it fail. Once Obama makes your Yankee dollars worthless then there will be a fair exchange rate. You just wait.

Just how is Obama making our dollars worthless ? The dollar is still the world's reserve currency, we are seeing more exports to the world.

We still see the world literally rush to the dollar when there is turmoil and especially from 3rd world economies and more so then the Euro, it now being down to $1.12 (up from $1.05) last I looked.

Again, just another comment simply signifying a grasping at straws in any attempt to denigrate Obama (and I gather...leftist policies, they being so damaging to equities and those trillion$ in profits & dividends) and of course...without any basis in fact.

Sure today the dollar is fine. Yet look at the debt and QE we're doing after the absurd Keynesian trillion dollars fluffed away to friends of Obama. When the fed stops printing money what, in your opinion, will happen to the dollar and the markets?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

I copy this because I have MNwhatever on hide and don't ever see his idiot quotes. You see he's and old pinko waiting for the revolution. In his mind it has to happen and it will happen. Because he hasn't seen how every time Marxism fails. I'm sure he believes that if Roosevelt hadn't come along we would have had a revolution in the '30's and hates Roosevelt for his soft socialism. He just hates and for him, the perfect system is to have hate in control and forcing people into his line so he can get the perks of running things.

Look at Scandinavia again. They can't afford cars so the national pastime is to ride bikes...everywhere. If you can't ride a bike you ride a train. Yea right how's that gonna work here? Scandinavian countries are about the size of the San Francisco peninsula. Oh, I see! That's why California what's a trillion dollar high speed rail that worthless. It's lefty it'll be like good communism in Scandinavia. That why lefties tout trains, it'll make cars obsolete in the US. Well not really. Not until we make gas so expensive Americans can't drive...cap and trade. Not until we force people to live close enough to work so they can ride a bike....smart planning. Not until we have control of how they use energy...smart grid.

It's all bogus Marxist bull shit. It's why MNwhatever is for immigration. The more that come here and live off the system the sooner the system will crash and he can take over.

Bull shit.

They can't afford cars so the national pastime is to ride bikes...everywhere.


I don't buy it. They tax the shit out of cars. That's true. But their middle class is so strong, they can certainly afford cars. They have world class transportation options (yeah, yeah, I know, leftist, marxist, public transportation), so less people need or want a car. Actually, thanks to Reagan, we tax the shit out of cars too (through the gas tax), but we can afford them.

People earn great salaries, and they have great entrepreneurship.

The weather sucks, and everyone is on prozac, but that's not because of their socialism.

By the way, the Tesla Model S has taken off in Norway! It is now 3% of Tesla's sales. (Subsidized by a Norweigian tax incentives to get the Tesla costing what it does in the US)

But the point is... Norwegians can afford it!!!


Your point about size and scalability is spot on. Not everything that works in a small country, scales to a larger one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Under Obama, how many more people have been added to social welfare programs? How long do you think that's sustainable. I know ol commies are looking forward to the U.S. collapses when the social welfare programs collapse. Is that your desire as well?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Then why is there a thread here? I see the OP is not the associated press.

I didnt write the OP. That little thing that says "AP" means "Associated Press"

Heres the link to the article on Yahoo:

http://news.yahoo.com/currency-tumbles-venezuelans-look-offload-bolivars-161058938.html

Its where we are headed if we keep electing politicians who are eager to promise more and more "free" government hand-outs for votes

Like in Venezuela

Hell, we are halfway there now



('Cause Marxists are so smart)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Uh, that is not marxism that is free market communism, and believe me, capitalist countries dump currencies all the time.

But why are you commenting on economics or fiscal responsibility, clearly you are unknowledgeable in these areas.

That's his move. Do you think he could comprehend the Communist Manifesto if he read it? Do you think he could explain the difference between Marxism, Leninism, and Stalinism?

For me to act like him, I'd have to start posing as an authority on Post Modernism or horticulture --- areas I know (0) about.

Wow, hateful fairy dust all over. Be still there Cloudboy. Tell me the similarity of your three systems? Other than that they all failed and they all produced states that had no consideration for anything but the power elite?

capitalism in America is failed. The commies are kicking our ass at it. Socialism hasn't failed, look at scandinavia, and germany and several other countries.

Socio-democratic (a mixed economy) works very well. None of these 'pure' systems have or will ever exist, particularly capitalism.

Sheesh... I sort of agree, but have a completely different perspective.

I disagree that Capitalism in America has failed. No system is perfect. I believe that Corporatists have taken over both parties and have made government work for the rich.

Some examples:
ALEC - Lobbyists from many industries come to vote on legislation, which is then cut and pasted in state-level bills
Medicare Part D - Big Pharma
Bank bailouts

Again, no system is perfect. To put a fine point on it: Systems fail when people don't have freedom and opportunity. They also fail when too many people don't contribute, and therefore become a burden.

Also, No system is completely "fair". Unfortunately, too often, liberals constantly seek fairness.

If people were machines, without hopes, dreams, and desires, communism would be the perfect system.
Or, in small groups, dedicated to a single purpose (e.g. Nomadic Native American tribes), communism works well.

Communism is GREAT at dealing with the non-contributors. They just end up in labor camps. (Not so great on the freedom and opportunity part.)

With regard to Socialism... I mean it in a narrow sense (It can mean an entire system of government, OR it can simply mean that SOME parts of the economy are socialized)


It is in this latter context, that I am asserting that we are ALL socialists. It is just a matter of degree. Capitalism (American or otherwise) will never survive without a social aspect. Both parties agree on this. (Yes, many on the right, say that some of these (below) are symptoms of a Progressive plot, but the majority of today's Republican politicians say they support these issues, even if for no other reason than political survival)

Some examples:
Veterans Administration - Pure socialized medicine
Infrastructure
Minimum wage
Medicare
SNAP
SBA


ok.... Here is my point (which is just another, less Marxist way of saying what mnot is saying) :)

The RIGHT amount of socialism actually AIDS Capitalism. (And a free, capitalist society as a whole)

What is the RIGHT amount of Socialism? THAT is the debate we should be having. Rather than calling each other names.

The answer certainly is different for each nation. (A simple example, would be that certain social programs work well for a small population, but are not scalable for a large one)

So to mnot's point... I think the Scandinavian countries have found the answer to the RIGHT amount of Socialism, at least for their own countries. They have lots of wonderful, regulated free market capitalism (No that is not an oxymoron, IMO) AND they have the best healthcare (ranked toward the top of 190 countries) (socialized by the way), relatively low crime, AND median incomes that are comparable, and in at least Norway's case, far ABOVE the US.

The more opportunity, and stability people have, the better position they are to start businesses and become largely successful Capitalists. To the right's point (which is definitely valid)... What do you do with the non-contributors, who squander the opportunity given them, and remain a burden to society?

Links up the wazu for all of this, if you are interested.

America has always had (righties cover your eyes) a tradition of Socialism (starting with 18th century public schools). (Just didn't call it that)

If you are uncomfortable with the word "Socialism", find another. All I am saying is that we as Americans (left and right) all support SOME parts of the economy as being socialized to some degree. The debate we need to have is which parts, and how MUCH.

(And I am also saying that the Scandinavian countries have largely figured this out for themselves)

And once again...

No system is perfect.
No system is fair.

However, dealing with human beings, who are individual, and want to self-determine, there is no system that beats Capitalism (properly regulated, of course (What does THAT mean? Another debate we should be having instead of calling each other names)), and with a social aspect.


My .02

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA


First off I call bull shit on you now. It's plain that the government is currently being run by corporations now. And the only people who have stated desires to stop it are the Tea Party and sick hateful idiots like the person we all have blocked. He wants the whole system to fail so the ensuing revolution will sweep his sick system into power. Good luck with that,,idiot, because the only people who own guns and can wage a revolution ain't on your side.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA
He's actually been the only one of you lefties who has been any where near truthful. Yet, when a Tea Party person is shown publicly to have never taken a fucking dime while in office, all of the little cloud boy's come out and ridicule him for not having enough money in the bank and vow to vote for Hillary who has been feeding in that pig shit for years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA
There are basically three decisions to make. Bill Clinton is the person who allowed all of the banks to merge to be too big to fail and he's gorging himself on that now. Obviously, it's time to bust a few monopolies and I don't see anyone on the left not waiting to get on the gravy train, so I don't see that happening if you idiots elect Hillary.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

I copy this because I have MNwhatever on hide and don't ever see his idiot quotes. You see he's and old pinko waiting for the revolution. In his mind it has to happen and it will happen. Because he hasn't seen how every time Marxism fails. I'm sure he believes that if Roosevelt hadn't come along we would have had a revolution in the '30's and hates Roosevelt for his soft socialism. He just hates and for him, the perfect system is to have hate in control and forcing people into his line so he can get the perks of running things.

Look at Scandinavia again. They can't afford cars so the national pastime is to ride bikes...everywhere. If you can't ride a bike you ride a train. Yea right how's that gonna work here? Scandinavian countries are about the size of the San Francisco peninsula. Oh, I see! That's why California what's a trillion dollar high speed rail that worthless. It's lefty it'll be like good communism in Scandinavia. That why lefties tout trains, it'll make cars obsolete in the US. Well not really. Not until we make gas so expensive Americans can't drive...cap and trade. Not until we force people to live close enough to work so they can ride a bike....smart planning. Not until we have control of how they use energy...smart grid.

It's all bogus Marxist bull shit. It's why MNwhatever is for immigration. The more that come here and live off the system the sooner the system will crash and he can take over.

Bull shit.

They can't afford cars so the national pastime is to ride bikes...everywhere.


I don't buy it. They tax the shit out of cars. That's true. But their middle class is so strong, they can certainly afford cars. They have world class transportation options (yeah, yeah, I know, leftist, marxist, public transportation), so less people need or want a car. Actually, thanks to Reagan, we tax the shit out of cars too (through the gas tax), but we can afford them.

People earn great salaries, and they have great entrepreneurship.

The weather sucks, and everyone is on prozac, but that's not because of their socialism.

By the way, the Tesla Model S has taken off in Norway! It is now 3% of Tesla's sales. (Subsidized by a Norweigian tax incentives to get the Tesla costing what it does in the US)

But the point is... Norwegians can afford it!!!


Your point about size and scalability is spot on. Not everything that works in a small country, scales to a larger one.

Its hard to focus on commonalities and solutions when you are dealing with insane people

The left, in this country, a sizable percentage of them, are like the one who everyone has on ignore in that they hate the United States and revel in things that bring it harm. They dont want Obamacare, they want communism. They want to literally collapse the system we have so that communism, complete with a strong charismatic Dear Leader promising the moon, if you like it you can keep it etc, will look attractive. Obamacare is designed to add to the country's' massive debt and thus hasten its collapse

Hunter mentions the immigration scandal as an example of the left causing deliberate harm, and it is a good example. Like the good useful idiots that they are the media is complicit in that one, by staying quiet about the numbers and the negative consequences while running feel good stories about "the children"

There is also the division, especially the racial division. No one in the administration really wants that to go away, we dont see or hear anyone calling for calm, or patience. What we see and hear is, he could be my son (be enraged). We are sending Holder in to investigate this injustice (be enraged). We want to give them room to destroy (be enraged).

Gay marriage... There is no tolerance for the older folks among us, who were raised to believe that homosexuals are sinners. You are supposed to hate the old folks, they are the enemy.

Hate Christians. Hate them - part of the plan. The more hate, the more implosion, the sooner the mnots will be locked up in Dear Leader paradise picking through pig shit for undigested kernels of corn that they cans serve with boiled rat meat for their dinner as Dear Leader dines on caviar and the endangered animal du jour

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And I will agree with your stance lock, stock, and barrel. It is well put.

I still assert that capitalism has failed in its promises, however.

If we accept this definition:
an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange, characterized by the freedom of capitalists to operate or manage their property for profit in competitive conditions.

I maintain that this does not occur for corporations, or the military-industrial complex, which is the bulk of our economy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

Who are these people on the left, that want communism??

quote:



I live in probably the most liberal, place in the U.S. outside of Berkeley. My town voted 96% for Obama. I live among liberals of all kinds. They can occasionally be a bit looney and closed-minded, but I never have seen this kind of hatred that you speak of.

Regarding believing homosexuals are sinners... Believe what you want. Just treat everyone fairly.

RE: Hating Christians??? Yes my town is humongously liberal, but we have more churches per square mile than anywhere I know. We have a Baptist (yes I said Baptist) church right on our main highway.

We have Episcopal, Presbyterian, and a Catholic church and school in the center of town.

We have about a dozen non-denominational churches (one also does a Lutheran service).

Not to forget the Mormon Temple up the street.

And the 7th Day Adventist on the corner. Oh and 1 more. On the main street through town, we have a Christian Science Reading Room. I kid you not.

There is NO hating of Christians amongst my liberal church going neighbors.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

Who are these people on the left, that want communism??

Search function is down right now but suffice it to say they would be the same ones blathering on about how oppressive capitalism is, and how capitalism has failed etc

Seems weve seen something of the sort on this thread already

"Evil corporations blah blah blah" types, who stand up for the Soviet Union, Castro, Che, Hugo Chavez without hesitation

There have been many threads in this forum through the years discussing these things in detail with knowledgeable posters on both sides of the spectrum posting a lot of credible citations. I dont have time to repeat everything at the moment but as the days go by I will try to go over a few of these things in more detail again

quote:



I live in probably the most liberal, place in the U.S. outside of Berkeley. My town voted 96% for Obama. I live among liberals of all kinds. They can occasionally be a bit looney and closed-minded, but I never have seen this kind of hatred that you speak of.

Regarding believing homosexuals are sinners... Believe what you want. Just treat everyone fairly.

RE: Hating Christians??? Yes my town is humongously liberal, but we have more churches per square mile than anywhere I know. We have a Baptist (yes I said Baptist) church right on our main highway.

We have Episcopal, Presbyterian, and a Catholic church and school in the center of town.

We have about a dozen non-denominational churches (one also does a Lutheran service).

Not to forget the Mormon Temple up the street.

And the 7th Day Adventist on the corner. Oh and 1 more. On the main street through town, we have a Christian Science Reading Room. I kid you not.

There is NO hating of Christians amongst my liberal church going neighbors.

This kind of attitude is very common:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4811511

Again, the search function is down or I could provide you with a plethora of similar comments

Its sort of an undercurrent, many of these people cant say how they feel about communism or Christians in public for political reasons but its out there, and its not uncommon.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

But, in general, the protective system of our day is conservative, while the free trade system is destructive. It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point. In a word, the free trade system hastens the social revolution. It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favor of free trade.

1848 (Guess Who?)

Had someone taken you up on this offer, it would have been a good thread.

I'm afraid that's politics today, though, no one is really interested in the merits and drawbacks of Conservatism and Liberalism (as philosophies); it's well down the queue behind regurgitating the party line, which is ironic given the subject matter in this thread.

I copy this because I have MNwhatever on hide and don't ever see his idiot quotes. You see he's and old pinko waiting for the revolution. In his mind it has to happen and it will happen. Because he hasn't seen how every time Marxism fails. I'm sure he believes that if Roosevelt hadn't come along we would have had a revolution in the '30's and hates Roosevelt for his soft socialism. He just hates and for him, the perfect system is to have hate in control and forcing people into his line so he can get the perks of running things.

Look at Scandinavia again. They can't afford cars so the national pastime is to ride bikes...everywhere. If you can't ride a bike you ride a train. Yea right how's that gonna work here? Scandinavian countries are about the size of the San Francisco peninsula. Oh, I see! That's why California what's a trillion dollar high speed rail that worthless. It's lefty it'll be like good communism in Scandinavia. That why lefties tout trains, it'll make cars obsolete in the US. Well not really. Not until we make gas so expensive Americans can't drive...cap and trade. Not until we force people to live close enough to work so they can ride a bike....smart planning. Not until we have control of how they use energy...smart grid.

It's all bogus Marxist bull shit. It's why MNwhatever is for immigration. The more that come here and live off the system the sooner the system will crash and he can take over.

Bull shit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Nobody in Europe pays for their defense, the U.S. is the only country with a system that can afford an army as well as defend Europe and much of Asia. If the US wasn't providing the defense of Europe, Europe would now either be speaking Russian or living in poverty trying to afford the marxist aspect of their idiocity. It's just old Marist dreams that have failed and the US is supporting. If you want to have a discussion about that it should be whether or not we should be protecting Europe from the failed marxist Russa.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Keep in mind most of socialized medicine is the control of how much is spent. So, they find that care for women's ailments and children tend to take care of the most "noise" complaints they would get. But, end of life stuff just isn't important. Get a serious illness in Canada, Britain, or Europe and it sucks for you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Uh, that is not marxism that is free market communism, and believe me, capitalist countries dump currencies all the time.

But why are you commenting on economics or fiscal responsibility, clearly you are unknowledgeable in these areas.

On basically the same terms I'd be willing to debate the issue but you are correct. It is not Marxism, BUT...[it] is state capitalism where the leaders simply get away with their outright kleptocracy.

As I've said, China IS THE new role model, state capitalism with about 300 million ready-to-be and most are...virtual slave labor.

I love how Marxist quibble. They all quibble about what is pure or perverse, but basically they all just want the same thing. Power for themselves to control those around them.

It's marxist philosophy to control the children.

Vladimir Ilich Lenin > Quotes > Quotable Quote

Vladimir Ilich Lenin
“Give me just one generation of youth, and I'll transform the whole world.”


― Vladimir Ilich Lenin

quote:

That was the theme of Horowitz’s speech as he continued: how the communists had taken over the Democratic Party. “The communist party is the Democratic Party,” Horowitz stated. “In The Great Gatsby, [F. Scott] Fitzgerald describes the rich as people who break things and leave them for others to clean up. That is a wonderful description of the left.” Horowitz, who began as a radical Marxist, said that the modern left had learned stealth from their failures in the 1960s: “The left have learned from the 1960s…we in the 1960s didn’t want to pretend to be Jeffersonian democrats…That’s why we failed in the 1960s. That’s why they’ve succeeded now.”

But the right, Horowitz pointed out, has failed to acknowledge that reality. On Obamacare, for example, Horowitz railed against the language used by the left: “single-payer.” Instead, he said, “it is communism,” pointing out that it was state ownership of the means of production. He added, “The left hate the Constitution because Madison designed it to thwart them.”...

Horowitz summed up pessimistically: “We are within reach of a totalitarian state in this country…These are very very dark days for this country.” But, Horowitz held out hope: “there’s been an earthquake on the conservative side since I switched sides…the tea party is the earthquake. The best thing that Republicans can do is stop the fratricide.”

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA


First off I call bull shit on you now. It's plain that the government is currently being run by corporations now. And the only people who have stated desires to stop it are the Tea Party and sick hateful idiots like the person we all have blocked. He wants the whole system to fail so the ensuing revolution will sweep his sick system into power. Good luck with that,,idiot, because the only people who own guns and can wage a revolution ain't on your side.

On me? Wow... Having a bad day are you?
Yes, it is plain that the government is currently being run by corporations. Has been for quite some time...

From the war profiteers:

Bechtel
Haliburton/KBR
ExxonMobil

To the banks
JPMorgan
Goldman Sachs

To Big Pharma for Medicare Part D
Bristol-Myers Squibb
Merck
AstraZeneca

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA
He's actually been the only one of you lefties who has been any where near truthful. Yet, when a Tea Party person is shown publicly to have never taken a fucking dime while in office, all of the little cloud boy's come out and ridicule him for not having enough money in the bank and vow to vote for Hillary who has been feeding in that pig shit for years.

One of you lefties? Tea Party person shown publicly to have never taken a dime while in office? Who would that be? (Just out of curiosity)

And that would make Hilary, better inoculated, albeit still a crappy choice for President

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA
There are basically three decisions to make. Bill Clinton is the person who allowed all of the banks to merge to be too big to fail and he's gorging himself on that now. Obviously, it's time to bust a few monopolies and I don't see anyone on the left not waiting to get on the gravy train, so I don't see that happening if you idiots elect Hillary.

I can think of two off the top of my head:
1) Elizabeth Warren. She would break them up faster than you can type the word "idiot".
2) Ron Wyden

Keep in mind, Bill Clinton signed a Republican-sponsored bill (Gramm-Leach-Billey) to accomplish that. He also was succeeded by Bush, who kept driving us off the cliff (except much faster). (Upped sub-prime loan quota, and sextupled the national debt at the same time (I think sextuple is correct?))

When has a Tea Party person ever talked about busting up monopolies? The Tea Party is stuck on: "Debt. Bad. Freedom. Good."

Wait... Unless you mean the guy who STARTED the Tea Party? Ron Paul???
Yes he has talked about breaking up monopolies many times.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

I copy this because I have MNwhatever on hide and don't ever see his idiot quotes. You see he's and old pinko waiting for the revolution. In his mind it has to happen and it will happen. Because he hasn't seen how every time Marxism fails. I'm sure he believes that if Roosevelt hadn't come along we would have had a revolution in the '30's and hates Roosevelt for his soft socialism. He just hates and for him, the perfect system is to have hate in control and forcing people into his line so he can get the perks of running things.

Look at Scandinavia again. They can't afford cars so the national pastime is to ride bikes...everywhere. If you can't ride a bike you ride a train. Yea right how's that gonna work here? Scandinavian countries are about the size of the San Francisco peninsula. Oh, I see! That's why California what's a trillion dollar high speed rail that worthless. It's lefty it'll be like good communism in Scandinavia. That why lefties tout trains, it'll make cars obsolete in the US. Well not really. Not until we make gas so expensive Americans can't drive...cap and trade. Not until we force people to live close enough to work so they can ride a bike....smart planning. Not until we have control of how they use energy...smart grid.

It's all bogus Marxist bull shit. It's why MNwhatever is for immigration. The more that come here and live off the system the sooner the system will crash and he can take over.

Bull shit.

They can't afford cars so the national pastime is to ride bikes...everywhere.


I don't buy it. They tax the shit out of cars. That's true. But their middle class is so strong, they can certainly afford cars. They have world class transportation options (yeah, yeah, I know, leftist, marxist, public transportation), so less people need or want a car. Actually, thanks to Reagan, we tax the shit out of cars too (through the gas tax), but we can afford them.

People earn great salaries, and they have great entrepreneurship.

The weather sucks, and everyone is on prozac, but that's not because of their socialism.

By the way, the Tesla Model S has taken off in Norway! It is now 3% of Tesla's sales. (Subsidized by a Norweigian tax incentives to get the Tesla costing what it does in the US)

But the point is... Norwegians can afford it!!!


Your point about size and scalability is spot on. Not everything that works in a small country, scales to a larger one.

Its hard to focus on commonalities and solutions when you are dealing with insane people

The left, in this country, a sizable percentage of them, are like the one who everyone has on ignore in that they hate the United States and revel in things that bring it harm. They dont want Obamacare, they want communism. They want to literally collapse the system we have so that communism, complete with a strong charismatic Dear Leader promising the moon, if you like it you can keep it etc, will look attractive. Obamacare is designed to add to the country's' massive debt and thus hasten its collapse

Hunter mentions the immigration scandal as an example of the left causing deliberate harm, and it is a good example. Like the good useful idiots that they are the media is complicit in that one, by staying quiet about the numbers and the negative consequences while running feel good stories about "the children"

There is also the division, especially the racial division. No one in the administration really wants that to go away, we dont see or hear anyone calling for calm, or patience. What we see and hear is, he could be my son (be enraged). We are sending Holder in to investigate this injustice (be enraged). We want to give them room to destroy (be enraged).

Gay marriage... There is no tolerance for the older folks among us, who were raised to believe that homosexuals are sinners. You are supposed to hate the old folks, they are the enemy.

Hate Christians. Hate them - part of the plan. The more hate, the more implosion, the sooner the mnots will be locked up in Dear Leader paradise picking through pig shit for undigested kernels of corn that they cans serve with boiled rat meat for their dinner as Dear Leader dines on caviar and the endangered animal du jour

Who are these people on the left, that want communism?? I live in probably the most liberal, place in the U.S. outside of Berkeley. My town voted 96% for Obama. I live among liberals of all kinds. They can occasionally be a bit looney and closed-minded, but I never have seen this kind of hatred that you speak of.

Regarding believing homosexuals are sinners... Believe what you want. Just treat everyone fairly.

RE: Hating Christians??? Yes my town is humongously liberal, but we have more churches per square mile than anywhere I know. We have a Baptist (yes I said Baptist) church right on our main highway.

We have Episcopal, Presbyterian, and a Catholic church and school in the center of town.

We have about a dozen non-denominational churches (one also does a Lutheran service).

Not to forget the Mormon Temple up the street.

And the 7th Day Adventist on the corner. Oh and 1 more. On the main street through town, we have a Christian Science Reading Room. I kid you not.

There is NO hating of Christians amongst my liberal church going neighbors.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Nobody in Europe pays for their defense, the U.S. is the only country with a system that can afford an army as well as defend Europe and much of Asia. If the US wasn't providing the defense of Europe, Europe would now either be speaking Russian or living in poverty trying to afford the marxist aspect of their idiocity. It's just old Marist dreams that have failed and the US is supporting. If you want to have a discussion about that it should be whether or not we should be protecting Europe from the failed marxist Russa.

There is much debate over here at the moment.

The United States administration is putting pressure on us to maintain a certain level of spending on defence. Our current government, the Conservative Party, a traditional advocate of a strong defence; is talking of priorities and they are refusing to commit to the level proposed by the Americans. We're not doing so badly ourselves at the moment, I think our unemployment rate is about 5.5% and that includes categories of people who are excluded from the United States unemployment rate calculation.

But, something's gotta give because there's more work to be done in terms of getting our house in order, and I for one hope that defence spending is cut in order to invest elsewhere.

We're at a cross-roads at the moment in terms of our relationship with the United States administration, and I feel the people running our country aren't overly pleased with the amount of pressure being exerted in various areas. Take the European Union, for example, the United States administration has made it clear that we should stay in (because of course we're their Trojan horse), whereas the majority of people over here want out.

What you term 'the protection of Europe' is perhaps not quite that, and more than one United States administration has had form for setting up a department for propaganda and controlling the flow of information in order to get the people on side for certain ventures. So, not quite a bastion for freedom.

In my view, the United States has done some things very well, better than most; but the weight of history wouldn't support your contrasting views of the United States and England, and I assume you include the English when you say 'Europe', no matter that England and continental Europe are as different in terms of thought and deed as chalk and cheese are.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Keep in mind most of socialized medicine is the control of how much is spent. So, they find that care for women's ailments and children tend to take care of the most "noise" complaints they would get. But, end of life stuff just isn't important. Get a serious illness in Canada, Britain, or Europe and it sucks for you.

There are benefits and drawbacks involved when contrasting any systems.

My one experience of the United States, purely anecdotal of course, wasn't a particularly positive one.

One of our party fell over and didn't land particularly well. An ambulance came, they didn't have to, granted, and took her to the hospital. I drove to the hospital to meet her - didn't have the first clue where I was going driving round New Orleans at night but managed to find it.

What an absolute scam. There was no one waiting in this place and it was taking them an eternity to walk up the corridor and back to get something. Looked to me like they felt they had all the time in the world and of course we understood why when we got hit with the bill.

They didn't really do a great deal with the exception of an x-ray and a bandage, but did spend a lot of time talking, walking, asking you to wait. We were in there for two and a half hours for an x-ray and a bandage that took about 15 minutes and no one else was waiting.

It was hardly the epitome of efficiency.

I would guess, however, that someone with plenty of money who wants something done quickly will be better off in the United States.

There are plenty of Americans living in England, some of whom have written about their experiences of the country including the health service. They're on the internet to read and they don't share your view. They make no bones about saying it's not perfect, which of course it isn't and no one needs to tells us that; but on the whole they seem pretty impressed.