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RE: Immigration - 6/10/2015 6:42:31 PM

MasterJaguar01

Posts: 2347
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: online

quote:

MasterJaguar01: Are car thieves now "unregistered auto drivers"?

quote:

DesideriScuri
I agree, bad analogy. Had he said "people who drive without a license" instead of car thieves, I'd agree with him.

Actually, quite a good and illustrative analogy. You have to consider the context of my point. Is stealing a car a similar act to entering this country illegally? Of course not. But that wasn't my point. it all depends on what the analogist (just made up that word) wants to compare. Like Apples and Oranges. Are they valid to compare? It depends on what similarities one is trying to illustrate. If one is trying to show that they are both fruit, then yes, great analogy.

In my case, I was trying to illustrate that that stealing a car and entering this country illegally are both ILLEGAL. And the problem with these acts is not that they are "undocumented". The problem is that they violate our laws under which we as a society live.

The fact they are "undocumented" is a SYMPTOM of the fact that they are ILLEGAL, rather than the cause of the problem, as the term "undocumented immigrant" implies. The term implies that the government is somehow remiss in providing these people with documentation.

Imagine a car thief being pulled over by a police officer. The officer says "May I see your registration?". The thief says "It isn't my car, and I am driving it without permission, but don't worry about that, I am fighting with the state to get it registered in my name."

OK... That takes the "undocumented immigrant" term to an absurd level.

Let's go one step more absurd...

Remember the mythical story (supposedly true) of a Texan accused of murder? He said, in his defense "He needed killin'"

That person could say: "The death penalty already exists in Texas. This person needed killin'. I am working with the court now to get the court order"

The BOTTOM line. It was an excellent analogy in its context. I was comparing two illegal acts (the similarity being their illegality, NOT their degree of illegality) to make a point. I was in no way equating them from a moral, or logistical standpoint.

quote:

MasterJaguar01: Murderers, undocumented executioners?

quote:

DesideriScuri:
Not a bigoted asshole, but not a good analogy, either.

Once again, an excellent analogy in its context.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

Post #: 41

RE: Immigration - 6/10/2015 6:43:20 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

You often ask in this forum, "why are others concentrating on me," and the answer to that is...

Search Term
why are others concentrating on me

By Author
HunterCA

Looks like the answer to that is...

The system could not find any record.

For further assistance see here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Most of us don't want to truck in bad information.

Yeah, but you're not one of them.

K.

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 42

RE: Immigration - 6/10/2015 6:45:20 PM

Aylee

Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

You can't even answer simple yes-or-no questions, so you sure as shit don't have any big-boy pants to address important issues that require clear thinking, pragmatism, and the essence embodied by our own national symbol, The Statue of Liberty.

You are an endless clatter of negativity. You are short on facts and long on paranoia. You dislike just about everything and are full of empty Ann Coulteresque vitriol.

Put more succinctly, you are the emptiest of reads and devoid of character in a debate. You often ask in this forum, "why are others concentrating on me," and the answer to that is --- the emptiness of your posting content leaves nothing else to ponder but the smallness behind your keyboard.

Most of us don't want to truck in bad information.

Bad day at the office?

Naw. More like:

Flaming Rage Nozzle of Tolerance! ACTIVATE!

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 43

RE: Immigration - 6/10/2015 6:47:57 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

By your logic, all drivers with speeding tickets are "illegal drivers" and all barbershops, restaurants, and businesses with a permit askew are "criminal enterprises."

CB you know that a better analogy would be people who hadn't bothered to get a drivers or business license. And yes both are criminal acts.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 44

RE: Immigration - 6/10/2015 6:50:42 PM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

Maybe a nice glass of lemonade flavored Kool-Aid

No, wait -

Police video shows officer shutting down little kids' lemonade stand due to a lack of health department permit

But illegals are free to flood the USA with a meth epidemic, heroine, gang violence, and practically every third world scourge and disease known to mankind because they are likely to vote Democrat

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to HunterCA)

Post #: 45

RE: Immigration - 6/10/2015 6:56:09 PM

KenDckey

Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline

Not authorized by law; Illicit ; unlawful; contrary to law.Sometimes this term means merely that which lacks authority of or support from law;but more frequently it imports a violation. Etymo- logicaily, the word seems to conveythe negative meaning only. But in ordinary use it has a severer, stronger signification;the idea of censure or condemnation for breaking law is usually presented. But the lawimplied in illegal is not necessarily an express statute. Tilings are called "illegal" for aviolation of common-law principles. And the term does not imply that the act spoken ofis immoral or wicked; it implies only a breach of the law. See State v. Ilaynorth, 3Sneed (Tenn.) 65; Tiedt v. Carstensen, 61 Iowa, 334, 10 N. W. 214; Chadhourne v.Newcastle, 48 N. II. 199; People v. Kelly, 1 Abb. Prac. N. S., (N. Y.) 437; Ex parteScwartz, 2 Tex. App. 80.

Law Dictionary: What is ILLEGAL? definition of ILLEGAL (Black's Law Dictionary)

So yes, the little girl's lemonade stand without a health permit, a driving violation, etc are all illegal. Not necessarily criminal, but illegal non-the-less.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 46

RE: Immigration - 6/10/2015 7:07:34 PM

MasterJaguar01

Posts: 2347
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

the "undocumented immigrant" moniker is an illustration of the way the left uses language to change the narrative...what, there is no criminal or illegal action going on here! lets just give these people their papers and everything will be hunky dory.

Ummm... That isn't reserved for the Left... Ever heard of Frank Luntz?

That's what he does for a living for Republicans...

There are tons of BS Republican terms to change the narrative (Not all are Luntz's)... Here are a few:

Excluding same-sex couples from marrying-->"Support of traditional marriage"
Allowing same-sex couples to marry-->"Re-defining marriage"
Criminalizing abortion-->"Pro-Life"
Tax cuts for the wealthy-->"Not hampering "Job Creators"

Just sayin'

(in reply to bounty44)

Post #: 47

RE: Immigration - 6/10/2015 7:17:56 PM

Wayward5oul

Posts: 3314
Joined: 11/9/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
They aren't coming here for asylum. They (for the most part) are coming here for jobs and to make money. Their governments have failed to provide an economic atmosphere that supports all those who want jobs. Where to go? To where the jobs are: the USA. They have knowingly illegally crossed the border to do menial labor (usually) because there it's a better option than staying in their own countries.

This used to be true.

Over the past 20 years, I have spent a significant amount of time in Mexico, and have and still do spend a fair amount of time in contact with local immigrant populations. It is a necessity of my job. And I can tell you that in terms of families coming here, I now see just as many who have immigrated here out of fear as there are who have come here seeking opportunity.

Yes the economic conditions in Mexico are deplorable, and I blame the Mexican government for that. The things I have seen firsthand are indescribable.

But in the last ten years, the violence from the drug cartels has skyrocketed, and the cartels are intricately intertwined with the government. The violence regularly touches the lives of your average 'family next door'...in some areas it is inescapable. I personally know several educated people (doctors, lawyers, journalist, teachers, etc) who are here illegally, standing on street corners looking for labor work each day or working on farms for pitiful wages, just trying to keep them and their families alive a little longer than they would be able to in Mexico. I know of a handful who were here, and were deported or returned to Mexico upon learning of a family members' illness, only to be killed upon returning home. The dangers that those people regularly face are easily proven, but because of our official stance that Mexico is a friendly government, gaining asylum is not a realistic option.

quote:

I find it astonishing that there are people who oppose the US wanting to be able to control the influx of people into the country.

Just because I provide my views about the real difficulties associated with immigrating doesn't mean that I oppose the US controlling it. I think that it is crippling our system in many ways, and causing a lot of divisiveness that I fear is becoming more and more destructive to society. Something has to be done. And opening floodgates from the Southern border will not solve anything.

But the reality is that coming here legally is, at least for people from the Spanish-speaking Americas, nearly impossible. For all but a miniscule percentage, legal entrance is not an option. Not in the face of survival.

So control it, by all means, but do so acknowledging the full picture and realize that any solution that would be successful is going to have to address that, or it will never end.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

Post #: 48

RE: Immigration - 6/10/2015 7:24:00 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

Thank you for your post. It is, I believe, fair to say that many among the "illegal aliens" would be more accurately denominated "illegal refugees". It is also, in my opinion, fair to say that Mexico has effectively ceded sovereignty over some of its northern states. And if I were in a position to make such a suggestion, I would suggest to the Mexican government that it fucking do something about that before we do.

K.

(in reply to Wayward5oul)

Post #: 49

RE: Immigration - 6/10/2015 7:25:01 PM

KenDckey

Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline

Wayward. Then let them apply for Asylum. Thus they won't be illegal, but legal residents.

A sanctuary, or place of refuge and protection, where criminals and debtors found shelter, and from which they could not be taken without sacrilege. State v. Bacon, 6 Neb. 291; Cromie v. Institution of Mercy, 3 Bush (Ivy.) 391. 2. Shelter; refuge; protection from the hand of justice. The word includes not only place, but also shelter, security, protection; and a fugitive from justice, who has committed a crime in a foreign country, "seeks an asylum" at all times when he claims the use of the territories of the United States. In re De Giacomo, 12 Blatchf. 395, Fed. Cas. No. 3,747. 3. An institution for the protection and relief of unfortunates, as asylums for the poor, for the deaf and dumb, or for the insane. Lawrence v. Leidigh, 58 Kan. 594, 50 Pac. 600, 62 Am. St Rep. 631.

Law Dictionary: What is ASYLUM? definition of ASYLUM (Black's Law Dictionary)

(in reply to Wayward5oul)

Post #: 50

RE: Immigration - 6/10/2015 7:29:36 PM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

the "undocumented immigrant" moniker is an illustration of the way the left uses language to change the narrative...what, there is no criminal or illegal action going on here! lets just give these people their papers and everything will be hunky dory.

Ummm... That isn't reserved for the Left... Ever heard of Frank Luntz?

That's what he does for a living for Republicans...

There are tons of BS Republican terms to change the narrative (Not all are Luntz's)... Here are a few:

Excluding same-sex couples from marrying-->"Support of traditional marriage"
Allowing same-sex couples to marry-->"Re-defining marriage"
Criminalizing abortion-->"Pro-Life"
Tax cuts for the wealthy-->"Not hampering "Job Creators"

Just sayin'

Very poor analogies. Abortion was formerly illegal, the"pro-choice" crowd are the ones who invented a new Orwellian term for what they do to minority (mostly) children

Tax cuts for the wealthy was a lie all along, everyone got tax cuts and the wealthy are practically the only ones who pay taxes. They pay the lions share...

Leftists have been trying to redefine all money as the governments, and "tax cuts" are referred derisively as giving fat cats subsidies, rather than what it is, allowing hard working people to keep more of what they earn.

The rich are defined as evil, their crime? Being successful. Success is frowned upon, by the left. And punished...

Marriage, or holy matrimony, has always been a Christian ceremony. Traditionally, preachers have married men and women, there is no redefinition there

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)

Post #: 51

RE: Immigration - 6/10/2015 7:44:28 PM

Wayward5oul

Posts: 3314
Joined: 11/9/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Thank you for your post. It is, I believe, fair to say that many among the "illegal aliens" would be more accurately denominated "illegal refugees". It is also, in my opinion, fair to say that Mexico has effectively ceded sovereignty over some of its northern states. And if I were in a position to make such a suggestion, I would suggest to the Mexican government that it fucking do something about that before we do.

K.

Illegal refugees-I can't argue with that. I think it is more reflective of their reality.

And yes, I agree that the Mexican government should get off its ass and do something about their country. But they aren't. And they aren't going to anytime soon. Because so much of the government (or officials) are intimately linked to the criminal elements-and have been for over a century (cartels are just the latest, but the most extreme).

Which leaves it to us to handle it, at least from our end.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 52

RE: Immigration - 6/10/2015 7:50:01 PM

Wayward5oul

Posts: 3314
Joined: 11/9/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Wayward. Then let them apply for Asylum. Thus they won't be illegal, but legal residents.

My point was that it really isn't an option. Its there on paper and nice to point to and say 'breaking the law', but that's about all the purpose it serves. In practice, it is almost non-existent, due to governmental relations.

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 53

RE: Immigration - 6/10/2015 7:50:15 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Success is frowned upon, by the left.

Only if they don't like your views.

K.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 54

RE: Immigration - 6/10/2015 7:58:04 PM

MasterJaguar01

Posts: 2347
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

the "undocumented immigrant" moniker is an illustration of the way the left uses language to change the narrative...what, there is no criminal or illegal action going on here! lets just give these people their papers and everything will be hunky dory.

Ummm... That isn't reserved for the Left... Ever heard of Frank Luntz?

That's what he does for a living for Republicans...

There are tons of BS Republican terms to change the narrative (Not all are Luntz's)... Here are a few:

Excluding same-sex couples from marrying-->"Support of traditional marriage"
Allowing same-sex couples to marry-->"Re-defining marriage"
Criminalizing abortion-->"Pro-Life"
Tax cuts for the wealthy-->"Not hampering "Job Creators"

Just sayin'

Very poor analogies. Abortion was formerly illegal, the"pro-choice" crowd are the ones who invented a new Orwellian term for what they do to minority (mostly) children

Tax cuts for the wealthy was a lie all along, everyone got tax cuts and the wealthy are practically the only ones who pay taxes. They pay the lions share...

Leftists have been trying to redefine all money as the governments, and "tax cuts" are referred derisively as giving fat cats subsidies, rather than what it is, allowing hard working people to keep more of what they earn.

The rich are defined as evil, their crime? Being successful. Success is frowned upon, by the left. And punished...

Marriage, or holy matrimony, has always been a Christian ceremony. Traditionally, preachers have married men and women, there is no redefinition there

First of all, in general, my comments were about language to change the narrative, not about policy.

But since you made some assertions vis-a-vis policy....

Abortion was formerly illegal? Yes in some states. To my knowledge, pre Roe v. Wade, it was up to the states to decide. That does not refute my point that "Pro-Life" was an attempt to change the narrative from criminalizing abortion (or continuing to criminalize abortion, in some states, as you point out). "Pro-choice" does not really have the same effect. (Although, I personally find the term offensive)

Tax cuts for the wealthy was a lie all along? That depends on the tax cut. If it is solely in the upper brackets, than one could hardly say it was a lie. The Bush tax cuts, included reducing the top marginal rates AND created a new 10% rate (below 15%) from which everyone including the wealthy could benefit. (Due to our marginal tax system, as I am sure you are aware, everyone keeps paying in each bracket up to their level of their income) I enjoy putting a portion of my money in the 10% bracket, before I start paying 15%, 25%, and 28%).

Obama let the upper bracket reductions expire which only benefited the wealthy, while extending Bush's 10% rate addition. That, combined with the 2% reduction in Social Security employee contributions (which Obama continued for 2 years before letting expire), my taxes under Obama have been the lowest in a long time.

Once again, that still doesn't refute my point about the attempt to change the narrative with the term "Job Creators"

As far as what Leftists do, you are right in some cases. I have seen it.

This is what is so flawed about the "Job Creator" meme. The wealthy, are wealthy because they are successful capitalists. They should not be punished or demonized for that. They are NOT socialists. They aren't going to "Create jobs", just because they saved money on their taxes, if their is no demand for their goods or services. Giving people jobs, that aren't adding value to their employer is pure socialism. The "Job Creator" term was used to support top rate tax reductions.

Marriage, or holy matrimony, has always been a Christian ceremony. Traditionally, preachers have married men and women, there is no redefinition there

I think people of many faiths would take issue with your first sentence. Your second sentence is 100% correct. That is why the narrative changing term works so well!!!

We're not excluding same-sex couples, we're "Supporting traditional Marriage".

I've got one more BS Republican term:

Forced government mandated Trans-vaginal ultrasound-->"Giving a woman more information to make an informed decision"

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 55

RE: Immigration - 6/10/2015 8:06:46 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

Forced government mandated Trans-vaginal ultrasound-->"Giving a woman more information to make an informed decision"

You are a week or two behind on this one, that was based on a misquote.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)

Post #: 56

RE: Immigration - 6/10/2015 8:09:48 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Thank you for your post. It is, I believe, fair to say that many among the "illegal aliens" would be more accurately denominated "illegal refugees". It is also, in my opinion, fair to say that Mexico has effectively ceded sovereignty over some of its northern states. And if I were in a position to make such a suggestion, I would suggest to the Mexican government that it fucking do something about that before we do.

Illegal refugees-I can't argue with that. I think it is more reflective of their reality.

And yes, I agree that the Mexican government should get off its ass and do something about their country. But they aren't. And they aren't going to anytime soon. Because so much of the government (or officials) are intimately linked to the criminal elements-and have been for over a century (cartels are just the latest, but the most extreme).

Which leaves it to us to handle it, at least from our end.

I'm not sure what you mean by "at least from our end," but it doesn't sound like what I meant. We are faced with criminal gangs in control of territory on our border. That is not acceptable. My suggestion was intended to convey that either Mexico re-establish sovereignty over those territories or we will, and I don't mean that we'll re-establish Mexico's sovereignty. When we're done, the border will be a little farther south.

If the same problem occurs again, then the process will continue until Mexico is reduced to a size its government is capable of exercising sovereignty over. If you're right about the government and the gangs being indistinguishable from each other, I'm fine with that being zero.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/10/2015 8:13:52 PM >

(in reply to Wayward5oul)

Post #: 57

RE: Immigration - 6/10/2015 8:14:06 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Thank you for your post. It is, I believe, fair to say that many among the "illegal aliens" would be more accurately denominated "illegal refugees". It is also, in my opinion, fair to say that Mexico has effectively ceded sovereignty over some of its northern states. And if I were in a position to make such a suggestion, I would suggest to the Mexican government that it fucking do something about that before we do.

Illegal refugees-I can't argue with that. I think it is more reflective of their reality.

And yes, I agree that the Mexican government should get off its ass and do something about their country. But they aren't. And they aren't going to anytime soon. Because so much of the government (or officials) are intimately linked to the criminal elements-and have been for over a century (cartels are just the latest, but the most extreme).

Which leaves it to us to handle it, at least from our end.

I'm not sure what you mean by "at least from our end," but it doesn't sound like what I meant. We are faced with criminal gangs in control of territory on our border. That is not acceptable. My suggestion was intended to convey that either Mexico re-establish sovereignty over those territories or we will, and I don't mean that we'll re-establish Mexico's sovereignty. When we're done, the border will be a little farther south. If the same problem occurs again, then the process will continue until Mexico is reduced to a size it is capable of exercising sovereignty over. If you're right about the government and the gangs being indistinguishable from each other, I'm fine with that being zero.

K.

Only if we don't do a half ass job like we have everywhere since Korea

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 58

RE: Immigration - 6/10/2015 8:18:58 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Only if we don't do a half ass job like we have everywhere since Korea

Well I did say if I was in a position to make such a suggestion, in which case you would not have to worry.

K.

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 59

RE: Immigration - 6/10/2015 9:24:10 PM

KenDckey

Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Wayward. Then let them apply for Asylum. Thus they won't be illegal, but legal residents.

My point was that it really isn't an option. Its there on paper and nice to point to and say 'breaking the law', but that's about all the purpose it serves. In practice, it is almost non-existent, due to governmental relations.

Isn't that like saying I can come to your home, set up a tent in the front yard. you call the police to evict me and they can't help because they are busy with the guy and his armored 18 wheeler carrying 1,000,000 rounds of continuous belt 50 cal ammo out killing birds in your neighbor's neighborhood with his M2. I have established that I entered your property. I have established that community relations have taken precident over your problem. That there is nothing you can do about it. I am therefore not illegally on your land. I am just undocumented on your land. To bad for you?

(in reply to Wayward5oul)

Post #: 60

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