quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Only if we don't do a half ass job like we have everywhere since Korea

Well I did say if I was in a position to make such a suggestion, in which case you would not have to worry.

K.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Wayward. Then let them apply for Asylum. Thus they won't be illegal, but legal residents.

My point was that it really isn't an option. Its there on paper and nice to point to and say 'breaking the law', but that's about all the purpose it serves. In practice, it is almost non-existent, due to governmental relations.

Isn't that like saying I can come to your home, set up a tent in the front yard. you call the police to evict me and they can't help because they are busy with the guy and his armored 18 wheeler carrying 1,000,000 rounds of continuous belt 50 cal ammo out killing birds in your neighbor's neighborhood with his M2. I have established that I entered your property. I have established that community relations have taken precident over your problem. That there is nothing you can do about it. I am therefore not illegally on your land. I am just undocumented on your land. To bad for you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Only if we don't do a half ass job like we have everywhere since Korea

Well I did say if I was in a position to make such a suggestion, in which case you would not have to worry.

K.

True

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Wayward. Then let them apply for Asylum. Thus they won't be illegal, but legal residents.

My point was that it really isn't an option. Its there on paper and nice to point to and say 'breaking the law', but that's about all the purpose it serves. In practice, it is almost non-existent, due to governmental relations.

Isn't that like saying I can come to your home, set up a tent in the front yard. you call the police to evict me and they can't help because they are busy with the guy and his armored 18 wheeler carrying 1,000,000 rounds of continuous belt 50 cal ammo out killing birds in your neighbor's neighborhood with his M2. I have established that I entered your property. I have established that community relations have taken precident over your problem. That there is nothing you can do about it. I am therefore not illegally on your land. I am just undocumented on your land. To bad for you?

I never voiced an opinion regarding using the terms illegal vs. undocumented, or made any comments about which is more appropriate.

I never said that it was okay to illegally enter the US.

I never said anything about how we should not view it as an illegal act.

My comments are directed towards the argument that illegal immigrants are not taking advantage of the appropriate means of admittance, which is seeking asylum, and that they should work within the legal options they are given. Much has been said about how they should be treated because they bypass legal options.

But for all intents and purposes, those legal options do not exist. Yes they are there on paper, and its easy to point to them and say 'look, they had other options'. Because acknowledging that they qualify for asylum would mean taking the official stance that the government is less than friendly and that we see the need to offer protection to their citizens because they can't/won't. And in doing so, two things happen. 1-a precedent gets set that strengthens the cases for countless others that would then seek asylum and 2-the Mexican government would not appreciate being seen as ineffective or acknowledged as corrupt, and relations would become tense.

So yes, call them illegal aliens. I don't care.

All I am trying to point out is that when you are talking about ways to deal with them, and you base your treatment of them on the idea that they chose to ignore legal options and are criminals and refuse to recognize our laws by coming here illegally, then you are basing it on a falsehood.

You want them to go through the proper procedures and come here legally? Make it a realistic option. Because right now, as far as offering asylum as an option for Mexican immigrants, the US talks the talk but does not walk the walk.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Only if we don't do a half ass job like we have everywhere since Korea

Well I did say if I was in a position to make such a suggestion, in which case you would not have to worry.

K.

True

I have said, for years, that the answer to the illegal aliens in this country is a military one, but my solution is still a little bit unorthodox as it borrows just a touch of it's strategy from Pres. Bush (II):

We have a standing program in this country where any foreign national who serves four years in our military is given citizenship. We can use that!

Initiate a huge enlist push amongst the illegal aliens. Sign as many up as we can.

Then, we invade Mexico, using the newer troops, just like Bush invaded Iraq (with no exit strategy) and the problem is solved! The illegals are back home!

Hope I helped.



Michael

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

MasterJaguar01: Are car thieves now "unregistered auto drivers"?

quote:

DesideriScuri
I agree, bad analogy. Had he said "people who drive without a license" instead of car thieves, I'd agree with him.

Actually, quite a good and illustrative analogy. You have to consider the context of my point. Is stealing a car a similar act to entering this country illegally? Of course not. But that wasn't my point. it all depends on what the analogist (just made up that word) wants to compare. Like Apples and Oranges. Are they valid to compare? It depends on what similarities one is trying to illustrate. If one is trying to show that they are both fruit, then yes, great analogy.
In my case, I was trying to illustrate that that stealing a car and entering this country illegally are both ILLEGAL. And the problem with these acts is not that they are "undocumented". The problem is that they violate our laws under which we as a society live.
The fact they are "undocumented" is a SYMPTOM of the fact that they are ILLEGAL, rather than the cause of the problem, as the term "undocumented immigrant" implies. The term implies that the government is somehow remiss in providing these people with documentation.
Imagine a car thief being pulled over by a police officer. The officer says "May I see your registration?". The thief says "It isn't my car, and I am driving it without permission, but don't worry about that, I am fighting with the state to get it registered in my name."

quote:

OK... That takes the "undocumented immigrant" term to an absurd level.
Let's go one step more absurd...
Remember the mythical story (supposedly true) of a Texan accused of murder? He said, in his defense "He needed killin'"
That person could say: "The death penalty already exists in Texas. This person needed killin'. I am working with the court now to get the court order"
The BOTTOM line. It was an excellent analogy in its context. I was comparing two illegal acts (the similarity being their illegality, NOT their degree of illegality) to make a point. I was in no way equating them from a moral, or logistical standpoint.

quote:

MasterJaguar01: Murderers, undocumented executioners?

quote:

DesideriScuri:
Not a bigoted asshole, but not a good analogy, either.

Once again, an excellent analogy in its context.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I find it astonishing that there are people who oppose the US wanting to be able to control the influx of people into the country.

Just because I provide my views about the real difficulties associated with immigrating doesn't mean that I oppose the US controlling it. I think that it is crippling our system in many ways, and causing a lot of divisiveness that I fear is becoming more and more destructive to society. Something has to be done. And opening floodgates from the Southern border will not solve anything.
But the reality is that coming here legally is, at least for people from the Spanish-speaking Americas, nearly impossible. For all but a miniscule percentage, legal entrance is not an option. Not in the face of survival.
So control it, by all means, but do so acknowledging the full picture and realize that any solution that would be successful is going to have to address that, or it will never end.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Wayward. Then let them apply for Asylum. Thus they won't be illegal, but legal residents.

My point was that it really isn't an option. Its there on paper and nice to point to and say 'breaking the law', but that's about all the purpose it serves. In practice, it is almost non-existent, due to governmental relations.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

the "undocumented immigrant" moniker is an illustration of the way the left uses language to change the narrative...what, there is no criminal or illegal action going on here! lets just give these people their papers and everything will be hunky dory.

Ummm... That isn't reserved for the Left... Ever heard of Frank Luntz?

That's what he does for a living for Republicans...

There are tons of BS Republican terms to change the narrative (Not all are Luntz's)... Here are a few:

Excluding same-sex couples from marrying-->"Support of traditional marriage"
Allowing same-sex couples to marry-->"Re-defining marriage"
Criminalizing abortion-->"Pro-Life"
Tax cuts for the wealthy-->"Not hampering "Job Creators"


Just sayin'

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Success is frowned upon, by the left.

Only if they don't like your views.

K.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I find it astonishing that there are people who oppose the US wanting to be able to control the influx of people into the country.

Just because I provide my views about the real difficulties associated with immigrating doesn't mean that I oppose the US controlling it. I think that it is crippling our system in many ways, and causing a lot of divisiveness that I fear is becoming more and more destructive to society. Something has to be done. And opening floodgates from the Southern border will not solve anything.
But the reality is that coming here legally is, at least for people from the Spanish-speaking Americas, nearly impossible. For all but a miniscule percentage, legal entrance is not an option. Not in the face of survival.
So control it, by all means, but do so acknowledging the full picture and realize that any solution that would be successful is going to have to address that, or it will never end.

My astonishment wasn't really aimed at you. It was a general statement. There are several regular posters here that don't want the US to control who comes into the country.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Wayward. Then let them apply for Asylum. Thus they won't be illegal, but legal residents.

My point was that it really isn't an option. Its there on paper and nice to point to and say 'breaking the law', but that's about all the purpose it serves. In practice, it is almost non-existent, due to governmental relations.

Isn't that like saying I can come to your home, set up a tent in the front yard. you call the police to evict me and they can't help because they are busy with the guy and his armored 18 wheeler carrying 1,000,000 rounds of continuous belt 50 cal ammo out killing birds in your neighbor's neighborhood with his M2. I have established that I entered your property. I have established that community relations have taken precident over your problem. That there is nothing you can do about it. I am therefore not illegally on your land. I am just undocumented on your land. To bad for you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Only if we don't do a half ass job like we have everywhere since Korea

Well I did say if I was in a position to make such a suggestion, in which case you would not have to worry.

K.

True

I have said, for years, that the answer to the illegal aliens in this country is a military one, but my solution is still a little bit unorthodox as it borrows just a touch of it's strategy from Pres. Bush (II):

We have a standing program in this country where any foreign national who serves four years in our military is given citizenship. We can use that!

Initiate a huge enlist push amongst the illegal aliens. Sign as many up as we can.

Then, we invade Mexico, using the newer troops, just like Bush invaded Iraq (with no exit strategy) and the problem is solved! The illegals are back home!

Hope I helped.



Michael

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

the "undocumented immigrant" moniker is an illustration of the way the left uses language to change the narrative...what, there is no criminal or illegal action going on here! lets just give these people their papers and everything will be hunky dory.

I note with sweet irony and perfect timing how "amnesty" is a right wing term with negative connotations.

ann coulter (mere mention of whom is likely to send the comrades here into painful paroxysms) just wrote a book called "adios America" that is all about this topic. I suspect it will be an informative and thought provoking read.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

I would like to add that we have laws penalizing employers that hire illigals. A few big heavily publicized cases would reduce jobs and reduce incentive to come here. Part of the reason we have this problem now is that in 1986 Reagan trusted Kennedy ans the Democrats that after they granted amnesty they would protect the border and implement heavy employer sanctions. Of course the Democrats lied and had no intention of ever doing that and they didn't. Now we're in the exact same position. Democrats saying well let's grant amnesty now and we promise to beef up board protection later. I'm pleased this is something the backboneless Republicans haven't caved on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

I would like to add that we have laws penalizing employers that hire illigals. A few big heavily publicized cases would reduce jobs and reduce incentive to come here. Part of the reason we have this problem now is that in 1986 Reagan trusted Kennedy ans the Democrats that after they granted amnesty they would protect the border and implement heavy employer sanctions. Of course the Democrats lied and had no intention of ever doing that and they didn't. Now we're in the exact same position. Democrats saying well let's grant amnesty now and we promise to beef up board protection later. I'm pleased this is something the backboneless Republicans haven't caved on.

Theyre completely dishonorable like that and then when they dont get a deal the next time they come crawling they blame the right for "gridlock"

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Wayward. Then let them apply for Asylum. Thus they won't be illegal, but legal residents.

My point was that it really isn't an option. Its there on paper and nice to point to and say 'breaking the law', but that's about all the purpose it serves. In practice, it is almost non-existent, due to governmental relations.

Isn't that like saying I can come to your home, set up a tent in the front yard. you call the police to evict me and they can't help because they are busy with the guy and his armored 18 wheeler carrying 1,000,000 rounds of continuous belt 50 cal ammo out killing birds in your neighbor's neighborhood with his M2. I have established that I entered your property. I have established that community relations have taken precident over your problem. That there is nothing you can do about it. I am therefore not illegally on your land. I am just undocumented on your land. To bad for you?

I had to stop and think for a second. M2... Isn't that a fully automatic m1 carbine. Then I realized...oh ya....Ma Duce.