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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/28/2015 3:11:10 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

You didn't answer the question, Marc. If a bakery doesn't make wedding cakes celebrating gay weddings for anyone, they shouldn't be forced to sell one to anyone. It's not just about some cake, but about a wedding cake. If a bakery refuses to sell chocolate cake as a wedding cake, but will sell chocolate cakes otherwise, should they be forced to sell chocolate cakes as wedding cakes?


Yes I did answer your question. Now you are asking a completely different question.

The first time you asked about not offering cakes for gay weddings leaving, presumably, the proprietors to still sell cakes for straight weddings. An obvious case of unwarranted discrimination.

Now you are asking if a bakery can sell cakes but explicitly refuse to sell cakes for any weddings, gay or straight.

Well, once I buy the cake I don't see how the bakery would have any say over what I do with it. What you are really asking is if they can refuse to decorate any cakes for weddings. If they refuse to decorate cakes for any weddings, that wouldn't be a problem. It is when they refuse it for one group or another that they are - or should be - breaking the law.

Not that I understand why this bakery would deliberately lock themselves out of a significant portion of the market. That is something that gets lost in this argument. As businessman in retail I am flabbergasted and uncomprehending as to why anyone would want to turn away paying customers. People giving you their money is the whole point of being in business!


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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/28/2015 3:14:39 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

While it is an option, not decorating a cake to celebrate a gay wedding does not mean you can't decorate a cake for a heterosexual wedding.






(They just don't get it, they really just don't get it)



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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/28/2015 3:52:12 PM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
No one can force you to perform a service that you don't offer. But if you do offer a service then you must offer it to everyone equally. It is about the people, not the cakes and steaks.

What if you don't offer cakes celebrating gay marriage to anyone?

That would mean not doing wedding cakes at all. Which is certainly an option, too.


While it is an option, not decorating a cake to celebrate a gay wedding does not mean you can't decorate a cake for a heterosexual wedding.


Well, in the eyes of the law, a wedding is a wedding. A cake is a cake. Unless decorating a gay wedding cake is somehow vastly different than decorating a straight wedding cake.

It's just like McDonald's selling Big Macs. The product is exactly the same, whether it's for a straight customer or gay. They couldn't legally refuse to sell a Big Mac to a gay person.

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Profile   Post #: 183
RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/28/2015 4:41:32 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

No...your point is coming out of your ass, given you're interpreting things in your own way...And with you, that interpretation is usually shit.



Let me put this plainly enough so even you can get it brains.

The figures you posted show two things. The majority of Republicans are against gay marriage and the majority of Democrats are for it.

That should be easy enough for follow even for you.


< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 6/28/2015 4:42:00 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 184
RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/28/2015 6:28:17 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
quote:

You didn't answer the question, Marc. If a bakery doesn't make wedding cakes celebrating gay weddings for anyone, they shouldn't be forced to sell one to anyone. It's not just about some cake, but about a wedding cake. If a bakery refuses to sell chocolate cake as a wedding cake, but will sell chocolate cakes otherwise, should they be forced to sell chocolate cakes as wedding cakes?

Yes I did answer your question. Now you are asking a completely different question.


No, you didn't. You changed the question, and then answered it.

I asked a different question (the point is exactly the same) only so you just might actually answer the question.

quote:

The first time you asked about not offering cakes for gay weddings leaving, presumably, the proprietors to still sell cakes for straight weddings. An obvious case of unwarranted discrimination.
Now you are asking if a bakery can sell cakes but explicitly refuse to sell cakes for any weddings, gay or straight.


No, you missed the point both times. Two categories of wedding cakes: 1) Homosexual Marriages & 2) Heterosexual Marriages. Both cakes celebrate the wedding, the marriage, etc. But, a Christian baker just might not want to celebrate a wedding between two same-sex people. Thus, the bakery could offer Heterosexual Wedding cakes, and not Homosexual Wedding cakes. If a homosexual couple is barred from buying a heterosexual wedding cake (and hetero- couples are not barred), then there is your discrimination. If the bakery doesn't make homosexual wedding cakes for anyone, there is no discrimination against any person. The discrimination is against homosexual marriage.

quote:

Well, once I buy the cake I don't see how the bakery would have any say over what I do with it. What you are really asking is if they can refuse to decorate any cakes for weddings. If they refuse to decorate cakes for any weddings, that wouldn't be a problem. It is when they refuse it for one group or another that they are - or should be - breaking the law.


But, not just anyone can decorate a cake to the level desired in a wedding cake. It is akin to an art. Every time a bakery decorates a wedding cake, the decorator is making a work of art. If any schmuck could do it well (and I can attest that is not the case, as I can not decorate most cakes, let alone a wedding cake, well), then they would not cost as much as they do, and the top decorators wouldn't be in such demand (not to mention the number of cake decorating competitions/shows on the Food Network).

Does an artist have the right to refuse a commission to create his/her art?

quote:

Not that I understand why this bakery would deliberately lock themselves out of a significant portion of the market. That is something that gets lost in this argument. As businessman in retail I am flabbergasted and uncomprehending as to why anyone would want to turn away paying customers. People giving you their money is the whole point of being in business!


That wouldn't make a whole lot of business sense. We agree on that. But, there is a difference between government forcing a business to provide a service and the business owners choosing to provide that same service without government coercion.

I don't oppose homosexual marriage, but I do oppose forcing a business to provide a service that they oppose on religious grounds.

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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/28/2015 6:30:41 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Well, in the eyes of the law, a wedding is a wedding. A cake is a cake. Unless decorating a gay wedding cake is somehow vastly different than decorating a straight wedding cake.
It's just like McDonald's selling Big Macs. The product is exactly the same, whether it's for a straight customer or gay. They couldn't legally refuse to sell a Big Mac to a gay person.


A Big Mac isn't anywhere near the same as a wedding cake. Serving a customer a Big Mac isn't celebrating a homosexual wedding, either.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 186
RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/28/2015 6:31:22 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

You didn't answer the question, Marc. If a bakery doesn't make wedding cakes celebrating gay weddings for anyone, they shouldn't be forced to sell one to anyone. It's not just about some cake, but about a wedding cake. If a bakery refuses to sell chocolate cake as a wedding cake, but will sell chocolate cakes otherwise, should they be forced to sell chocolate cakes as wedding cakes?


Yes I did answer your question. Now you are asking a completely different question.

The first time you asked about not offering cakes for gay weddings leaving, presumably, the proprietors to still sell cakes for straight weddings. An obvious case of unwarranted discrimination.

Now you are asking if a bakery can sell cakes but explicitly refuse to sell cakes for any weddings, gay or straight.

Well, once I buy the cake I don't see how the bakery would have any say over what I do with it. What you are really asking is if they can refuse to decorate any cakes for weddings. If they refuse to decorate cakes for any weddings, that wouldn't be a problem. It is when they refuse it for one group or another that they are - or should be - breaking the law.

Not that I understand why this bakery would deliberately lock themselves out of a significant portion of the market. That is something that gets lost in this argument. As businessman in retail I am flabbergasted and uncomprehending as to why anyone would want to turn away paying customers. People giving you their money is the whole point of being in business!


Sorry but gay marriages are not a significant portion of the market.
Not getting the business from gays and those who will use any excuse to punish Christians is the proper punishment, not doing business with them is your right.

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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/28/2015 6:33:46 PM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2345
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
quote:

You didn't answer the question, Marc. If a bakery doesn't make wedding cakes celebrating gay weddings for anyone, they shouldn't be forced to sell one to anyone. It's not just about some cake, but about a wedding cake. If a bakery refuses to sell chocolate cake as a wedding cake, but will sell chocolate cakes otherwise, should they be forced to sell chocolate cakes as wedding cakes?

Yes I did answer your question. Now you are asking a completely different question.


No, you didn't. You changed the question, and then answered it.

I asked a different question (the point is exactly the same) only so you just might actually answer the question.

quote:

The first time you asked about not offering cakes for gay weddings leaving, presumably, the proprietors to still sell cakes for straight weddings. An obvious case of unwarranted discrimination.
Now you are asking if a bakery can sell cakes but explicitly refuse to sell cakes for any weddings, gay or straight.


No, you missed the point both times. Two categories of wedding cakes: 1) Homosexual Marriages & 2) Heterosexual Marriages. Both cakes celebrate the wedding, the marriage, etc. But, a Christian baker just might not want to celebrate a wedding between two same-sex people. Thus, the bakery could offer Heterosexual Wedding cakes, and not Homosexual Wedding cakes. If a homosexual couple is barred from buying a heterosexual wedding cake (and hetero- couples are not barred), then there is your discrimination. If the bakery doesn't make homosexual wedding cakes for anyone, there is no discrimination against any person. The discrimination is against homosexual marriage.

quote:

Well, once I buy the cake I don't see how the bakery would have any say over what I do with it. What you are really asking is if they can refuse to decorate any cakes for weddings. If they refuse to decorate cakes for any weddings, that wouldn't be a problem. It is when they refuse it for one group or another that they are - or should be - breaking the law.


But, not just anyone can decorate a cake to the level desired in a wedding cake. It is akin to an art. Every time a bakery decorates a wedding cake, the decorator is making a work of art. If any schmuck could do it well (and I can attest that is not the case, as I can not decorate most cakes, let alone a wedding cake, well), then they would not cost as much as they do, and the top decorators wouldn't be in such demand (not to mention the number of cake decorating competitions/shows on the Food Network).

Does an artist have the right to refuse a commission to create his/her art?

quote:

Not that I understand why this bakery would deliberately lock themselves out of a significant portion of the market. That is something that gets lost in this argument. As businessman in retail I am flabbergasted and uncomprehending as to why anyone would want to turn away paying customers. People giving you their money is the whole point of being in business!


That wouldn't make a whole lot of business sense. We agree on that. But, there is a difference between government forcing a business to provide a service and the business owners choosing to provide that same service without government coercion.

I don't oppose homosexual marriage, but I do oppose forcing a business to provide a service that they oppose on religious grounds.



This is the issue on the other thread. Both threads have merged into this same CAKE issue!!!!

Aylee brought this up. Is controlling the ART discrimination? I would say "no"

I think, a wedding cake decorator, could refuse (even under Public Accomodation non-disc law) to decorate a cake in a homosexual style (e.g. Depictions of homosexual acts, homosexual figurines, etc.) I would support his/her right to do so.

That is DIFFERENT from refusing to back/decorate a cake in the first place.


My .02

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Profile   Post #: 188
RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/28/2015 6:46:34 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Arent there some form of obscenity laws controlling" selling obscenity art" that would cover that?
ANd while I have decorated cakes in the past....I cant draw to save my life.
just wondering tho , how many roman orgy, or gaping butt cakes have been forced on to poor unsuspecting innocents. If I wanted a "obscene cake", I would ask an OBSCENE baker.
The baker for my wedding cake had horrible toppers so I bought my own....the baker didnt blink an eye.


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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/28/2015 7:40:32 PM   
Marc2b


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Status: offline 		[Emphasis mine

quote:



[emphasis Mine]

No, you missed the point both times. Two categories of wedding cakes: 1) Homosexual Marriages & 2) Heterosexual Marriages. Both cakes celebrate the wedding, the marriage, etc. But, a Christian baker just might not want to celebrate a wedding between two same-sex people. Thus, the bakery could offer Heterosexual Wedding cakes, and not Homosexual Wedding cakes. If a homosexual couple is barred from buying a heterosexual wedding cake (and hetero- couples are not barred), then there is your discrimination. If the bakery doesn't make homosexual wedding cakes for anyone . . .


It is the people that are homosexual or heterosexual . . . not the cakes.

quote:

. . . there is no discrimination against any person. The discrimination is against homosexual marriage.


It is the people who are homosexual or heterosexual . . . not the marriage (not since Friday, anyway).

quote:

Does an artist have the right to refuse a commission to create his/her art?


No. Not if her reason for refusing is bigoted discrimination. If they don't want to sell their art to certain groups of people they disapprove of (for whatever dingbat reason) then they should be in the business of selling art.



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Profile   Post #: 190
RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/28/2015 7:53:52 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Sorry


I don't believe you. I don't think you're sorry at all.

quote:

but gay marriages are not a significant portion of the market.


My remark was actually in reference to the notion of not selling any wedding cakes in order to avoid having to sell to gay people. Personally, I don't care whether you regard the number of homosexuals getting married to be a significant portion of the market or not. Any business owner who turns away paying customers for so stupid a reason as bigotry is not just an immoral shithead but a fucking idiot immoral shithead.

quote:

Not getting the business from gays and those who will use any excuse to punish Christians is the proper punishment, not doing business with them is your right.


It is indeed my right not to patronize any business that discriminates. It is NOT the right of businesses - public accommodations! - to discriminate against their customers.



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Profile   Post #: 191
RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/28/2015 8:02:57 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		Earlier this evening I had carrot cake with cream cheese icing . . . I think it was bisexual.

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Profile   Post #: 192
RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/28/2015 8:12:34 PM   
JVoV


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Status: offline 		I keep picturing some kinda massive bukkake scene over a wedding cake.

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Profile   Post #: 193
RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/28/2015 8:23:35 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

No...your point is coming out of your ass, given you're interpreting things in your own way...And with you, that interpretation is usually shit.



Let me put this plainly enough so even you can get it brains.

The figures you posted show two things. The majority of Republicans are against gay marriage and the majority of Democrats are for it.

That should be easy enough for follow even for you.


Let me make it simpler for you, arse...the point was that not ALL republicans are against gay marriage and...more important...not ALL Dems support it.

Now...let me get a little more complex for you. If it is true...as so many from the left are quick to say...that those who do not support gay marriage are "haters", then it follows that not all the hate comes from the right in this instance.

Could you understand that?

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Profile   Post #: 194
RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/28/2015 8:25:22 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Well, in the eyes of the law, a wedding is a wedding. A cake is a cake. Unless decorating a gay wedding cake is somehow vastly different than decorating a straight wedding cake.
It's just like McDonald's selling Big Macs. The product is exactly the same, whether it's for a straight customer or gay. They couldn't legally refuse to sell a Big Mac to a gay person.


A Big Mac isn't anywhere near the same as a wedding cake. Serving a customer a Big Mac isn't celebrating a homosexual wedding, either.



The principle is still the same. The baker isn't "celebrating" a gay wedding by selling them a cake. They're just selling the product that they sell; it shouldn't matter who's buying it or what they plan to do with it.

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Profile   Post #: 195
RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/28/2015 9:00:53 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Well, in the eyes of the law, a wedding is a wedding. A cake is a cake. Unless decorating a gay wedding cake is somehow vastly different than decorating a straight wedding cake.
It's just like McDonald's selling Big Macs. The product is exactly the same, whether it's for a straight customer or gay. They couldn't legally refuse to sell a Big Mac to a gay person.


A Big Mac isn't anywhere near the same as a wedding cake. Serving a customer a Big Mac isn't celebrating a homosexual wedding, either.



The principle is still the same. The baker isn't "celebrating" a gay wedding by selling them a cake. They're just selling the product that they sell; it shouldn't matter who's buying it or what they plan to do with it.


So Freedom of Expression means nothing?

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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/28/2015 9:08:37 PM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2345
Joined: 12/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Well, in the eyes of the law, a wedding is a wedding. A cake is a cake. Unless decorating a gay wedding cake is somehow vastly different than decorating a straight wedding cake.
It's just like McDonald's selling Big Macs. The product is exactly the same, whether it's for a straight customer or gay. They couldn't legally refuse to sell a Big Mac to a gay person.


A Big Mac isn't anywhere near the same as a wedding cake. Serving a customer a Big Mac isn't celebrating a homosexual wedding, either.



The principle is still the same. The baker isn't "celebrating" a gay wedding by selling them a cake. They're just selling the product that they sell; it shouldn't matter who's buying it or what they plan to do with it.


So Freedom of Expression means nothing?


Selling a cake is definitely not celebrating a gay wedding. Decorating a cake with homosexual sayings, pictures, figurines, toppers, etc... One could argue IS celebrating a gay wedding

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Profile   Post #: 197
RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/28/2015 9:24:02 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		its not about celebrating, the argument is about involving oneself by supplying supporting accessories for someone to perform acts that violate their religious beliefs.

sort of like forcing the hard core democrats to help the hard core republicans win the election and vise versa.







< Message edited by Real0ne -- 6/28/2015 9:26:40 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 198
RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/28/2015 10:13:31 PM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
No one can force you to perform a service that you don't offer. But if you do offer a service then you must offer it to everyone equally. It is about the people, not the cakes and steaks.


What if you don't offer cakes celebrating gay marriage to anyone?



Well, this has the look of a "cunning legal ploy" to it, and I am guessing the courts would have to decide.

I believe that if you discriminate against "cakes for heterosexual marriage" and "cakes for gay marriage" then you're discriminating against gay people and you're breaking the law.



Since you know that this is plainly a gambit in order to discriminate against gay people I am quite surprised that you'd entertain an attempt to subvert the intention of the law.

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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/28/2015 10:53:48 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Well, in the eyes of the law, a wedding is a wedding. A cake is a cake. Unless decorating a gay wedding cake is somehow vastly different than decorating a straight wedding cake.
It's just like McDonald's selling Big Macs. The product is exactly the same, whether it's for a straight customer or gay. They couldn't legally refuse to sell a Big Mac to a gay person.


A Big Mac isn't anywhere near the same as a wedding cake. Serving a customer a Big Mac isn't celebrating a homosexual wedding, either.



The principle is still the same. The baker isn't "celebrating" a gay wedding by selling them a cake. They're just selling the product that they sell; it shouldn't matter who's buying it or what they plan to do with it.


So Freedom of Expression means nothing?


This is not a Freedom of Expression issue.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 200
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