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Affirmative Action - 7/5/2015 7:09:23 PM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2347
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline 		Why is Affirmative Action/racial quotas (particularly in University admissions) allowed to continue? It is clearly racism by definition, and looks to me like a clear violation Equal Protection clause of the 14th amendment.

How is this process still legal?
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/5/2015 7:57:40 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
Why is Affirmative Action/racial quotas (particularly in University admissions) allowed to continue? It is clearly racism by definition, and looks to me like a clear violation Equal Protection clause of the 14th amendment.
How is this process still legal?


Why do you hate minorities?

That's why. Opposing Affirmative Action will get the race card played against you every time. It is one of those things that may have been necessary, at one point in time, but is no longer required.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/5/2015 7:59:19 PM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2347
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
Why is Affirmative Action/racial quotas (particularly in University admissions) allowed to continue? It is clearly racism by definition, and looks to me like a clear violation Equal Protection clause of the 14th amendment.
How is this process still legal?


Why do you hate minorities?

That's why. Opposing Affirmative Action will get the race card played against you every time. It is one of those things that may have been necessary, at one point in time, but is no longer required.


I disagree that it was ever necessary, or helpful.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/5/2015 8:07:13 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
Why is Affirmative Action/racial quotas (particularly in University admissions) allowed to continue? It is clearly racism by definition, and looks to me like a clear violation Equal Protection clause of the 14th amendment.
How is this process still legal?

Why do you hate minorities?
That's why. Opposing Affirmative Action will get the race card played against you every time. It is one of those things that may have been necessary, at one point in time, but is no longer required.

I disagree that it was ever necessary, or helpful.


We will have to agree to disagree, then. I do believe that minorities were ignored and passed over simply because they were minorities. I'd be willing to bet that there were applicants whose only qualification they were "better" at was in not being a minority. AA was like a "jump start" to getting more employers to accept a more diverse employee makeup. But, once employers were giving chances to minorities and it worked out (stereotypes were broken), the need and efficacy of AA was lost.

Many businesses are taking advantage of incentives from government for doing business with minority owned, and/or female owned businesses. More discrimination at the feet of government.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/5/2015 8:10:51 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

Why is Affirmative Action/racial quotas (particularly in University admissions) allowed to continue? It is clearly racism by definition, and looks to me like a clear violation Equal Protection clause of the 14th amendment.

How is this process still legal?

Because anyone who tries to do something about it is branded as a racist.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/5/2015 8:12:59 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
Why is Affirmative Action/racial quotas (particularly in University admissions) allowed to continue? It is clearly racism by definition, and looks to me like a clear violation Equal Protection clause of the 14th amendment.
How is this process still legal?

Why do you hate minorities?
That's why. Opposing Affirmative Action will get the race card played against you every time. It is one of those things that may have been necessary, at one point in time, but is no longer required.

I disagree that it was ever necessary, or helpful.


We will have to agree to disagree, then. I do believe that minorities were ignored and passed over simply because they were minorities. I'd be willing to bet that there were applicants whose only qualification they were "better" at was in not being a minority. AA was like a "jump start" to getting more employers to accept a more diverse employee makeup. But, once employers were giving chances to minorities and it worked out (stereotypes were broken), the need and efficacy of AA was lost.

Many businesses are taking advantage of incentives from government for doing business with minority owned, and/or female owned businesses. More discrimination at the feet of government.


But at no point is it any better to discriminate against someone for not being a minority than it is to discriminate against them because they are one.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/5/2015 8:18:15 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

Why is Affirmative Action/racial quotas (particularly in University admissions) allowed to continue? It is clearly racism by definition, and looks to me like a clear violation Equal Protection clause of the 14th amendment.

How is this process still legal?


Because there is confusion about the difference between Equality of Opportunity and Equality of Outcome.

The first is imperative. The second is never going to happen. But is does allow for people like Al Sharpton to shake down businesses for money.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/5/2015 8:26:27 PM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2347
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
Why is Affirmative Action/racial quotas (particularly in University admissions) allowed to continue? It is clearly racism by definition, and looks to me like a clear violation Equal Protection clause of the 14th amendment.
How is this process still legal?

Why do you hate minorities?
That's why. Opposing Affirmative Action will get the race card played against you every time. It is one of those things that may have been necessary, at one point in time, but is no longer required.

I disagree that it was ever necessary, or helpful.


We will have to agree to disagree, then. I do believe that minorities were ignored and passed over simply because they were minorities. I'd be willing to bet that there were applicants whose only qualification they were "better" at was in not being a minority. AA was like a "jump start" to getting more employers to accept a more diverse employee makeup. But, once employers were giving chances to minorities and it worked out (stereotypes were broken), the need and efficacy of AA was lost.

Many businesses are taking advantage of incentives from government for doing business with minority owned, and/or female owned businesses. More discrimination at the feet of government.



WOAH... I am taking the Libertarian argument against a Libertarian (who supports (past) govenment intervention in support of racial preferences)

There are anti-discrimination laws to prevent discrimination. There is also an EEO process to monitor. Forcing racial quotas on employers does a disservice to the employer, the employee who is hired (EVEN IF he/she is qualified), and the race it is supposed to helping.

<shaking head> You big-government liberals :)

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/5/2015 8:46:50 PM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2347
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
Why is Affirmative Action/racial quotas (particularly in University admissions) allowed to continue? It is clearly racism by definition, and looks to me like a clear violation Equal Protection clause of the 14th amendment.
How is this process still legal?

Why do you hate minorities?
That's why. Opposing Affirmative Action will get the race card played against you every time. It is one of those things that may have been necessary, at one point in time, but is no longer required.

I disagree that it was ever necessary, or helpful.


We will have to agree to disagree, then. I do believe that minorities were ignored and passed over simply because they were minorities. I'd be willing to bet that there were applicants whose only qualification they were "better" at was in not being a minority. AA was like a "jump start" to getting more employers to accept a more diverse employee makeup. But, once employers were giving chances to minorities and it worked out (stereotypes were broken), the need and efficacy of AA was lost.

Many businesses are taking advantage of incentives from government for doing business with minority owned, and/or female owned businesses. More discrimination at the feet of government.


But at no point is it any better to discriminate against someone for not being a minority than it is to discriminate against them because they are one.


Agreed 100%! Well said. In fact, to discriminate against a non-minority, makes a mockery of the effort to fight discriminate against minorities.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/5/2015 8:48:57 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		What would be the result of discrimination?...To me it means a lower economic standard from lack of opportunity. Many blacks fall into this category and believe it is from discrimination.

However... today many white Americans feel there is no longer discrimination and children have equal opportunity to succeed and affirmative action programs are no longer needed and in fact reverse discrimination.

So... why not figure a away to administer the existing aid and scholastic opportunity that would satisfy both groups..and I know how.

Rather than use race as a determining factor for affirmative actions use an economic standard. If blacks are indeed suppressed economically then they would benefit most from the program... and whites could no longer claim reverse discrimination because race would no longer be used.

AND helping those that need it most with the best grades will be money well spent without the stigma of racism.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/5/2015 8:49:32 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/5/2015 8:57:00 PM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2347
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

What would be the result of discrimination?...To me it means a lower economic standard from lack of opportunity. Many blacks fall into this category and believe it is from discrimination.

However... today many white Americans feel there is no longer discrimination and children have equal opportunity to succeed and affirmative action programs are no longer needed and in fact reverse discrimination.

So... why not figure a away to administer the existing aid and scholastic opportunity that would satisfy both groups..and I know how.

Rather than use race as a determining factor for affirmative actions use an economic standard. If blacks are indeed suppressed economically then they would benefit most from the program... and whites could no longer claim reverse discrimination because race would no longer be used.

AND helping those that need it most with the best grades will be money well spent without the stigma of racism.

Butch


Wow.... So I should hire someone, not based on his/her qualifications, but based on his/her economic need?

Socialism on steroids?

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/5/2015 9:03:28 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		You missed the part where i said with the best grades ... so those who are aided will be capable... do you see something wrong with helping the poor become stable productive citizens?

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/5/2015 9:06:48 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/5/2015 9:13:35 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You missed the part where i said with the best grades ... so those who are aided will be capable... do you see something wrong with helping the poor become stable productive citizens?

Butch

It has been demonstrated repeatedly that government help for the underprivileged has little long term effect. The best way to help them is better parenting. The parents involvement in education does more good than all the government programs. But how do you get parents who have been told all their lives that the only way they can get ahead is if the government makes people hire them regardless of qualifications. First you have to convince them that nobody owes them a job.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/5/2015 9:15:20 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I would much rather my taxes go for producing tax paying citizens then paying hard earned tax money for a life time of dependency.

I would cost less for scholastic aid then the other option don't you think... not just for that generation but for generations to come.

I can guarantee you that there are many excellent students out there that cannot afford advanced schooling... Rather than doctors...educators... engineers we end up with burger flipping disgruntled people on a life time of government aid... which would you rather have?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/5/2015 9:22:32 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

It has been demonstrated repeatedly that government help for the underprivileged has little long term effect


No it has not been proven... affirmative action has been a great success. Yes the rest of your post is sensible and I agree but affirmative action based on scholastic ability and economic standing would be a wise, useful, and successful use of our money. We talk about the need for better education in the inner cities and poor rural America... will here is a constructive way to achieve it...EDUCATION is the key to a better life.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/5/2015 9:24:39 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/5/2015 9:29:23 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

It has been demonstrated repeatedly that government help for the underprivileged has little long term effect


No it has not been proven... affirmative action has been a great success. Yes the rest of your post is sensible and I agree but affirmative action based on scholastic ability and economic standing would be a wise, useful, and successful use of our money. We talk about the need for better education in the inner cities and poor rural America... will here is a constructive way to achieve it...EDUCATION is the key to a better life.

Butch

I have seen studies showing what I said, specifically on head start.
I have never seen anything to indicate that the government can make up for negligent parenting.
If you return it to hiring and admissions being based on qualifications then it is no longer affirmative action.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/5/2015 10:42:58 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline 		Give a man a fish and he is not hungry today. Teach a man to fish and he is not hungry the rest of this life. We tend to give a man a fish, again and again and again and because we do he does not want to learn to fish and you will have to take fish from those who do fish and so they will either stop fishing or fish somewhere else.

_____________________________

"We master Our world."

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 3:04:46 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
We will have to agree to disagree, then. I do believe that minorities were ignored and passed over simply because they were minorities. I'd be willing to bet that there were applicants whose only qualification they were "better" at was in not being a minority. AA was like a "jump start" to getting more employers to accept a more diverse employee makeup. But, once employers were giving chances to minorities and it worked out (stereotypes were broken), the need and efficacy of AA was lost.
Many businesses are taking advantage of incentives from government for doing business with minority owned, and/or female owned businesses. More discrimination at the feet of government.

WOAH... I am taking the Libertarian argument against a Libertarian (who supports (past) govenment intervention in support of racial preferences)
There are anti-discrimination laws to prevent discrimination. There is also an EEO process to monitor. Forcing racial quotas on employers does a disservice to the employer, the employee who is hired (EVEN IF he/she is qualified), and the race it is supposed to helping.
<shaking head> You big-government liberals :)




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_the_United_States

I didn't know it, but, apparently, the idea of "affirmative action" (as we know it) started during Reconstruction, which is at least a couple months (LOL!) prior to the the CRA or the EEOC. FDR, and every President until the CRA had attempted to ban race being used as a hiring qualification. Proving racial discrimination in hiring can be a difficult thing, too.

Initially, I do believe AA was necessary to break out of the past discriminatory practices. IMO, it hasn't really been needed for quite some time.

The NFL's "Rooney Rule" requiring every team looking for a head coach to interview at least one African American for the position prior to hiring a head coach. That's a ridiculously discriminatory rule, and one that does a disservice to black coaching candidates. The Detroit Lions ran afoul of the rule when they hired Steve Mariucci. They knew they wanted Mooch before they fired Marty Morninwheg, but they had to interview a black candidate. They reached out to Dennis Green and had the interview set, but amid all the rumors the Lions were going to hire Mooch, Green refused to be the "token" black candidate, canceling the interview. The Lions still hired Mooch, as that was their guy all along.

Affirmative Action is no longer necessary.



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 3:13:03 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I would much rather my taxes go for producing tax paying citizens then paying hard earned tax money for a life time of dependency.
I would cost less for scholastic aid then the other option don't you think... not just for that generation but for generations to come.
I can guarantee you that there are many excellent students out there that cannot afford advanced schooling... Rather than doctors...educators... engineers we end up with burger flipping disgruntled people on a life time of government aid... which would you rather have?
Butch


Butch, your posts here are confusing. Are you talking about K-12 schooling or post-HS schooling? I've talked to quite a few educators (very few conservatives among them) and each one has told me that positive parental involvement (regardless of race) is the key to K-12 success. Obviously, every school has to be funded, but getting the latest and greatest things for a school full of students without positive parental involvement isn't going to turn anything around.

Most scholarships are based on academic success and/or economic need. There are more scholarship programs specifically for minority students than there are for white students.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 4:06:20 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Give a man a fish and he is not hungry today. Teach a man to fish and he is not hungry the rest of this life. We tend to give a man a fish, again and again and again and because we do he does not want to learn to fish and you will have to take fish from those who do fish and so they will either stop fishing or fish somewhere else.

If you poison the water, the fish die, if cut down on the amount of fish allowed per day, the people die. If you swap the rod for a net, the catch is at least halved...
IF you pass around barbless hooks, they aint gonna catch bugger all.
Republicans have never found a social program they didnt like to cut.
The douchebag in kansas proved that.
25$ per day for withdrawl. What bright spark didnt notice that you can only withdraw cash in 20 $ increments. and pay a buck for the privilege.
Cutting social programs is doing the damage, cutting the wrong THINGS is doing the damage.

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 20
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