RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety?

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BamaD -> RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety? (9/18/2015 1:10:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Well he has an IQ of about 160 so yes he is brainy. You can teach them to recognize poison symbles, and to leave anything alone that is stored with them. If you are dumb enough to try to teach them each thing that is dangerous to swallow, they will find something else. When they are to young to read you just teach them only to eat what you give them. The don't have to be as smart as me to follow that, just as smart as you. You grew up in a gunless society, and yet you have the arrogance to lecture people who grew up around guns how to react to them. That is preaching from ignorance. Did you miss the part about my saying I stored them safely or did you just ignore it because it didn't fit your talking point? You consisantly ignore anything I say about storing things safely,why? Anyone should be able to see that the best defence is knowledge. Other precautions are good but secondary. If you have studied history you would know that a static defense never works. Hmmmm..... an IQ of about 160. Have you had him tested or are you just quoting numbers out the air?? That is some serious IQ - I'd have him in a special school and enrolled in Mensa. [:D] Actually, we aren't a gunless society - we just don't see the sense in allowing people to carry guns in public or to have them quite as prolific as they are in the US. We realised almost a century ago that to have such an open gun policy would be to invite to incident and trouble. Most other 1st-world countries have done something similar and do not have such a gun problem as the US. I'm not preaching from ignorance, just common sense; which an awful lot of Americans seem to not have. And to be fair, that would also apply to a lot of 1st-world countries these days, not just the USA. But there again, nowhere else has such an open gun policy and such a prolification of guns in the populace or such a gun problem that we hear relentlessly on the media every day. And no, I wouldn't be so obtuse as to expect you to allow me to inspect your home to make sure it was a safe place - I would expect you to take that responsibility and ensure it was safe for everyone because I would hold you responsible if anything untoward occurred on your property. Static defense.... a very popular and very effective tactic used by the Romans for centuries. If it wasn't for the corruption of those at the top, they would be ruling the world right now. Doesn't work?? It certainly does!! And I find it very strange that you quote history. History states that the US inherited our gun laws and in fact, most of our laws. We evolved and admitted our mistake and changed the laws. The US is still stuck in the 18th century with regard to guns. Most other countries, like us, have learned; yet the US stubbornly refuses to grow up and realise the dangers of such liberalisation. As for your version of 'safety', considering your arguments about guns, I wouldn't consider you safe. Yes he was tested, repeatedly. He already graduated with honors from the best school I could send him too. What do you expect, both his parents were in excess of 140, and yes we were tested. New Zeland has gun laws much like we do and a crime rate much like Australia hmm your belief system says they should have a crime rate like us since guns can force people to do things, at least in Europe. The fact that you have changed doesn't mean you have gotten better and wiser, the greatest agent of change in 20th century Europe was Hitler (who pushed gun control) what a great step forward, next were the communists in the Soviet Union, God don't we all want to be like them. I might also point out that Mexico has grown up gun laws like you think will solve the problem and has a far worse violence problem than we do. Again the gangs are the biggest problem, gun control won't stop them, and we don't enforce the once we have, maybe we should try that before taking the big brother approach.

mnottertail -> RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety? (9/18/2015 1:25:26 PM)
Hitler did not (let me repeat this for the feeble minded) did not push gun control, The Weimar Republic in 1919 (based on the treaty of Versailles) confiscated a lot of guns as required by the Triple Entente. They were relaxed slightly, in 1935, but the 1938 law that LaPierre is fucking lying about and sending the feebleminded into masturbatory frenzy pretty much cleaned out any thought of gun control. They had the buildup of arms to Occupy the Rhinelands so they could build big arms. Don't be a dumbass people, read and understand history credibly cited, and not slogans and jingos. Look, you can get killed by a car, we dont ban them. You can get killed by a knife, we dont ban them. You can get killed by a baseball bat, we dont ban them. Now that you can kill with a car, a knife, and a baseball bat, what the fuck you need a gun for?

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety? (9/18/2015 1:46:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Now that you can kill with a car, a knife, and a baseball bat, what the fuck you need a gun for? My point exactly. [:)]

BamaD -> RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety? (9/18/2015 2:05:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Now that you can kill with a car, a knife, and a baseball bat, what the fuck you need a gun for? My point exactly. [:)] And most particularly with a bomb, OK city , Boston, lots of Bill Ayers freinds. Rolf had a bomb as a backup plan if he couldn't get a gun, the Columbine boys were incompetent or they would have used the bombs they tried to make, which BTW would have likely killed two or three times as many people. Rolf couldn't have gotten the gun he used if current law were executed properly, and the Colubine boys had violated 20 some odd Federal laws before they ever got to the school that day, they were celebrating Hitlers birthday. This goes back to teach values again and dumping this stupid political correctness kick we are on. Finally even if every single thing you have said were accurate teaching gun safety is a good idea unless you want tragedies so you can ban guns. Note I did not say you personally want either tragedies or that you want use to ban guns so don't go dening an accusation I didn't make. Besides you have no business telling us what laws we need when you won't follow yours.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety? (9/18/2015 2:11:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD No, you and even Obama miss the point entirely. Do we? Most of the rest of the world outside of the US seem to agree with him. Even a good proportion of Americans agree with him. It seems just the pro-gun lobby don't. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD When is the last time the government killed 150 of your citizens? When has that happened in the US?? quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD When is the last time one of your citizens (not working for a terroist organization) killed 200 people with a bomb? The difference is not guns. The difference is the prolific ownership of them - not the guns themselves. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD It is a well documented fact, not my opinion, but fact, that in the last 20 years firearm ownership has doubled and violent crime has been cut in half. And I have not seen a single report that tributes the cut in crime rate to even more guns. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD The increase in guns is not the sole, or even the primary, cause of the drop in crime, but it clearly didn't cause the explosion that you and Obama the 1st seems to think it should. In the same time your wonderful gun laws have had no real effect on crime. You are correct. We have such few gun crimes that what odd few we do have hit headline news. [:D] The fact that we, and many other countries, have such laws where the US doesn't, clearly shows in the stats that the gun crime rate in the US pales us into insignificance. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Drugs, drug money fueled gangs, and a widespread destruction of values are the cause. As Igor and I have both pointed out when there was less restriction there was less crime. Interesting that you both quote absolute figures, not per capita. For many years, even decades, the US have far outstripped any other 1st-world country for gun crime stats. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD As you are clearly unaware firearm accidents have also plummitted during this time, why, because of education. If it were deemed that effective, it would be part of the general school syllabus like general health, sex education, and the main subjects are. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD A grossley disproportionate level of crime takes place in the inner city (not because of race) where the unemployment rate among young blacks is upwards of 20%. You are attributing the crime rate to a single colour. I would call that racist. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Get them working re-instate values, and demolish the gangs and you will accomplish more than all the gun laws in the world. So why don't you do just that?? Oh right, you demand that they are taken out by armed police. We have gangs here. Some are highly territorial and do fight and cause deaths. But because of our not-so-liberal gun laws, we don't have the gun deaths in the same proportion that the US has. It's a very simple per-capita comparison. The US beats all of the rest of us put together. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Not only that but they don't enforce the laws we have, don't you think it might be a good idea to actually see if the current laws have an effect before you start passing more laws to not enforce? I agree. But how long does the rest of the world have to wait for the USA to get on with it?? Another 2 or 3 decades?? The laws you have are feeble, often unenforcable, and way too liberal. You need something very radical like the rest of us. But you won't hear of it because of your ideology of the 2nd and are entrenched in that PoV. And we hear cries that it persecutes the law abiding citizens and lets the criminals have the guns. Pffftttt!!! Criminals will get guns no matter where in the world you live. But if the general populace didn't have them, your average assailant won't have them either. Ergo: gun crimes are almost wiped out - the stats do and continue to show that. It's no good quoting silly stats like that gun crimes have dropped - so have ours and various other crimes here too and by a higher margin than that of the US.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety? (9/18/2015 2:22:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD And most particularly with a bomb, OK city , Boston, lots of Bill Ayers freinds. Rolf had a bomb as a backup plan if he couldn't get a gun, the Columbine boys were incompetent or they would have used the bombs they tried to make, which BTW would have likely killed two or three times as many people. Rolf couldn't have gotten the gun he used if current law were executed properly, and the Colubine boys had violated 20 some odd Federal laws before they ever got to the school that day, they were celebrating Hitlers birthday. This goes back to teach values again and dumping this stupid political correctness kick we are on. I actually agree with all of that. But what has it to do with where these funds would have been spent? I don't agree that teaching kids about guns is good thing. I really don't. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Finally even if every single thing you have said were accurate teaching gun safety is a good idea unless you want tragedies so you can ban guns. Note I did not say you personally want either tragedies or that you want use to ban guns so don't go dening an accusation I didn't make. Besides you have no business telling us what laws we need when you won't follow yours. Not tragedies to ban the guns, no. Ban the prolification of gun ownership so that guns in general don't even get into the equation. Or can't you see that?? You seem to be of the opinion (like many Americans) that we are a gunless society and we don't have guns. Many of us actually do - and use them. The essential difference is in the way the laws are enacted and enforced. If we were to ban cars for most people, would car accidents and killings by cars go down?? They most certainly would and by a very appreciable margin at a single stroke. It wouldn't stop the criminals from stealing cars from affluent people or politicians. And it would probably prompt your government to invest more in your roadways and general transport too - which wouldn't be such a bad thing.

BamaD -> RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety? (9/18/2015 2:58:13 PM)
When has that happened in the US?? Waco

BamaD -> RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety? (9/18/2015 2:59:38 PM)
It seems just the pro-gun lobby don't. And anyone who understands the 2nd amendment

BamaD -> RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety? (9/18/2015 3:02:55 PM)
And I have not seen a single report that tributes the cut in crime rate to even more guns. This just proves how far you will go to disagree with me, you split my statement so you could pretend I said something I didn't. Read the next part of my post which you even copied here.

BamaD -> RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety? (9/18/2015 3:10:28 PM)
Interesting that you both quote absolute figures, not per capita. For many years, even decades, the US have far outstripped any other 1st-world country for gun crime stats. No, crime rates have just gotten back down to what they were in the early 60's. A true statement that constitutes a lie. The US has the same murder rate as England, if you only count clubs and fists, not if you include knives, guns, and bombs. The difference is societal. Way back when the public policy in England was a gun in every home we had a higher murder rate than you do. The difference that matters is that our murder rate is dropping at a far greater rate than yours, we must be doing something right, and we don't need foreign felons to tell us what to do.

BamaD -> RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety? (9/18/2015 3:14:20 PM)
If it were deemed that effective, it would be part of the general school syllabus like general health, sex education, and the main subjects are. Hand gun control is screaming about any firearms safety courses, let alone in schools. Not all schools have drivers ed. Back in the time Igor and I were talking about there were schools with rifle teams, and NO school shootings.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety? (9/18/2015 3:17:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD When has that happened in the US?? Waco Religious extremists killing their own people and would not give up to the authorities. I'd count that as killing terrorists - collateral damage, not the government killing their own people. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD It seems just the pro-gun lobby don't. And anyone who understands the 2nd amendment I don't interpret the same thing that you do from the very same words. Even your supreme court and your politicians can't seem to verify and agree on what it really means. If it was worth it's salt, it shouldn't be open to interpretation. That makes it a useless law. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD And I have not seen a single report that tributes the cut in crime rate to even more guns. This just proves how far you will go to disagree with me, you split my statement so you could pretend I said something I didn't. Read the next part of my post which you even copied here. And read my response to it. I repeat.... I see no report that tributes the fall in crime is a direct causal link in the increase in gun ownership. In fact, if all the media reports are anything to go by, there seems to be an increase in the number/frequency of mass killings in the US which isn't happening elsewhere. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD If it were deemed that effective, it would be part of the general school syllabus like general health, sex education, and the main subjects are. Hand gun control is screaming about any firearms safety courses, let alone in schools. Not all schools have drivers ed. Back in the time Igor and I were talking about there were schools with rifle teams, and NO school shootings. "A school shooting is an occurrence in which an individual or group of individuals launches a gun attack on an educational institution, such as an elementary school, secondary school, post-secondary institution, or at an education-related setting. The definition given from the report on school shooters by the Secret Service and Department of Education is "school shootings and other school-based attacks where the school was deliberately selected as the location for the attack and was not simply a random site of opportunity."[1] A school shooting can happen anywhere in the world where a person takes a gun into a school setting. These shootings have sparked a political debate over gun violence, whether firearms should be allowed in the classroom and whether there should be stricter gun control. There are notable school shootings all over the world, with the United States having the highest number of school-related shootings." Our schools don't allow guns of any description anywhere in the country. Period. "Perhaps the earliest school or college shooting in the United States was the Enoch Brown school massacre, which occurred on July 26, 1764, during the Pontiac's War. More recent school shootings include the 1966 University of Texas massacre, the 1999 Columbine High School massacre, the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre, and the 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, the 2013 Arapahoe High School Shooting, and most recently the 2014 Marysville Pilchuck High School shooting." 1764.... Hmmmm. You must be very old. School shootings by country have managed to put everybody else in the world on the page page. US school shootings is soooo long that they needed a separate page for it all on it's own. That tells me everything.

BamaD -> RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety? (9/18/2015 3:19:51 PM)
You are attributing the crime rate to a single colour. I would call that racist. you That means you are either stupid or illiterate. Aren't you bright enough to see the significance in the 20% unemployment rate? Are you so blind that you do not see that people without hope are more likely to turn to crime. Are you so intent on disagreeing with everything I say that you try to dismiss even the most ovbious things?

BamaD -> RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety? (9/18/2015 3:23:44 PM)
So why don't you do just that?? Oh right, you demand that they are taken out by armed police. Of course I want the police to do it, I don't know about enlightened England but here vigilantism is against the law. And unlike you I don't put myself above the laws.

BamaD -> RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety? (9/18/2015 3:25:10 PM)
The laws you have are feeble, often unenforcable, and way too liberal. You need something very radical like the rest of us. But you won't hear of it because of your ideology of the 2nd and are entrenched in that PoV. And we hear cries that it persecutes the law abiding citizens and lets the criminals have the guns. Pffftttt!!! Criminals will get guns no matter where in the world you live. But if the general populace didn't have them, your average assailant won't have them either. Ergo: gun crimes are almost wiped out - the stats do and continue to show that. It's no good quoting silly stats like that gun crimes have dropped - so have ours and various other crimes here too and by a higher margin than that of the US. Pure claptrap _____________________________

BamaD -> RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety? (9/18/2015 3:29:24 PM)
Religious extremists killing their own people and would not give up to the authorities. Nobody died till the government attacked. BTW they could not produce one shread of evidence to support going there in the first place. Even if they had it was merely a paperwork problem. On top of this all they had to get Koresh to come in was have the Sheriff call him. The year before Koresh came in and turned himself in on a murder charge, which was also full of bull. Worst case, the kind of shoot out they had anyway.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety? (9/18/2015 3:29:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD The laws you have are feeble, often unenforcable, and way too liberal. You need something very radical like the rest of us. But you won't hear of it because of your ideology of the 2nd and are entrenched in that PoV. And we hear cries that it persecutes the law abiding citizens and lets the criminals have the guns. Pffftttt!!! Criminals will get guns no matter where in the world you live. But if the general populace didn't have them, your average assailant won't have them either. Ergo: gun crimes are almost wiped out - the stats do and continue to show that. It's no good quoting silly stats like that gun crimes have dropped - so have ours and various other crimes here too and by a higher margin than that of the US. Pure claptrap _____________________________ Really?? So now you are going to argue against every single statistic on the web now?? The stats for every other 1st-world country show it. If you can disprove it - show me the evidence. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD When is the last time the government killed 150 of your citizens? The net says: "Twenty years ago today the Waco siege began, ending violently 50 days later with the deaths of 76 men, women and children" Where did you get 150 from??

BamaD -> RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety? (9/18/2015 3:33:59 PM)
I don't interpret the same thing that you do from the very same words. Even your supreme court and your politicians can't seem to verify and agree on what it really means. If it was worth it's salt, it shouldn't be open to interpretation. That makes it a useless law. A One point you Englishmen don't seem to be able to comprehend is the constitution is not law, it is the framework underwhich the laws are written. B Five minutes of reading what the people who wrote the 2nd said about it would clear up your confusion. C Then there are no usefull laws because as you have demonstrated anything can be misinterpreted.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety? (9/18/2015 3:44:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD I don't interpret the same thing that you do from the very same words. Even your supreme court and your politicians can't seem to verify and agree on what it really means. If it was worth it's salt, it shouldn't be open to interpretation. That makes it a useless law. A One point you Englishmen don't seem to be able to comprehend is the constitution is not law, it is the framework underwhich the laws are written. B Five minutes of reading what the people who wrote the 2nd said about it would clear up your confusion. C Then there are no usefull laws because as you have demonstrated anything can be misinterpreted. A. True. but when that constitution gives people a 'right' and states that it cannot be changed - that makes it law unto itself. B. I am not confused, but many Americans, including learned ones, seem to be. C. Not many here that can be misinterpreted. Ignored, yes. But rarely misinterpreted. Laws are usually very concise.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Coalition to Stop Gun ...Safety? (9/18/2015 4:32:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD You are attributing the crime rate to a single colour. I would call that racist. you That means you are either stupid or illiterate. Aren't you bright enough to see the significance in the 20% unemployment rate? Wriggling again. Perhaps you need reminding that your original statement specifically brought up the fact that the 20% were black. "where the unemployment rate among young blacks is upwards of 20%" That makes the statement racist. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Are you so blind that you do not see that people without hope are more likely to turn to crime. Tell that to the 2million+ Syrian refugees in Jordan where the hopeless and jobless are running at about 98%. Do you see a high crime rate there?? No. They forage, beg, and manage to survive; they don't turn to crime. Some very few manage to get very low paid work - they are the lucky few. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Are you so intent on disagreeing with everything I say that you try to dismiss even the most ovbious things? What I see is you (obviously) twisting words and putting up false claims that you can't support. I see a different side to your do-and-say-anything-to-support-guns verbiage.

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