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RE: Umpqua mass shooting - 10/3/2015 11:35:45 AM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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FR

Interesting thought experiment making the rounds on Facebook:

How about we treat every young man who wants to buy a gun like every woman who wants to get an abortion — mandatory 48-hr waiting period, parental permission, a note from his doctor proving he understands what he's about to do, a video he has to watch about the effects of gun violence, an ultrasound wand up the ass (just because). Let's close down all but one gun shop in every state and make him travel hundreds of miles, take time off work, and stay overnight in a strange town to get a gun. Make him walk through a gantlet of people holding photos of loved ones who were shot to death, people who call him a murderer and beg him not to buy a gun.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 241

RE: Umpqua mass shooting - 10/3/2015 11:58:08 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Interesting thought experiment making the rounds on Facebook:

How about we treat every young man who wants to buy a gun like every woman who wants to get an abortion — mandatory 48-hr waiting period, parental permission, a note from his doctor proving he understands what he's about to do, a video he has to watch about the effects of gun violence, an ultrasound wand up the ass (just because). Let's close down all but one gun shop in every state and make him travel hundreds of miles, take time off work, and stay overnight in a strange town to get a gun. Make him walk through a gantlet of people holding photos of loved ones who were shot to death, people who call him a murderer and beg him not to buy a gun.

You left out treating anyone who wants to stop him from getting it like a bigot who hates gun owners.
You left out that in some states there is no waiting period.
You left out that in some states it is illegal to notify the parents that a minor wants an abortion.
You left out that most abortion clinics not only don't tell people about the downsides to abortions they activly encourage them.
You left out that you don't have to get permission from the Federal government to get an abortion.
You left out that anyone who protests sell abortions (the planned parenthood term, not mine) is labeled as a fanatic and a terrorist.
You left out that in some states you don't need a doctors confirmation.
You left out that the AMA favors abortion and is anti gun.
You ledt out that the reason for doctors permission, where they require it, is because abortion is an intrusive medical procedure, last time I checked nobody has a firearm implanted in their body.
You left out that Tx wasn't going to shut down any abortion clinics, they were just requiring that they have actual Drs on site, and that it would have only affected PPH, which only has 1 10th of the abortion clinics in any given state.
The equivilant would be to shut down any gun shop that had felons working there, which they do anyway.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 10/3/2015 12:00:46 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 242

RE: Umpqua mass shooting - 10/3/2015 11:59:02 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Interesting thought experiment making the rounds on Facebook:

How about we treat every young man who wants to buy a gun like every woman who wants to get an abortion — mandatory 48-hr waiting period, parental permission, a note from his doctor proving he understands what he's about to do, a video he has to watch about the effects of gun violence, an ultrasound wand up the ass (just because). Let's close down all but one gun shop in every state and make him travel hundreds of miles, take time off work, and stay overnight in a strange town to get a gun. Make him walk through a gantlet of people holding photos of loved ones who were shot to death, people who call him a murderer and beg him not to buy a gun.

Yeah...no.

Every single person going in for an abortion is going in to kill a human being.

Do you...or your Facebook 'experimenters'... know for certain that every single person going in to buy a gun is going to kill some human being?

I didn't think so.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 243

RE: Umpqua mass shooting - 10/3/2015 12:00:07 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

OPINION
James Alan Fox: Umpqua shooting - a tragedy, not a trend

James Alan Fox
1 day ago
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Another mass shooting sears deep into the collective consciousness of the American people. Another school — this time a community college in an otherwise peaceful town in rural Oregon — is devastated by a young man taking aim at students trapped in classrooms. Nine are murdered, and many others wounded, before the gunman is killed in a shootout with the police.

Within a few hours, President Obama appeared before the camera, reinforcing the notion that America is under siege. “Somehow this has become routine,” noted Obama with obvious emotion. “The reporting is routine.”

USA TODAY
Andy Parker: Oregon shooting shows we are at war

USA TODAY
Calculated killing of Christians in Roseburg? Column

Although the sense of urgency may be overstated, Obama is certainly correct about the almost formulaic media response. The Oregon shooting had countless news outlets flooding the airwaves and the Internet with questionable statistics on the incidence of mass shootings along with sidebar listings of the deadliest shooting sprees in U.S. history. In the usual rush to offer up some breaking information, news reports were embellished with unconfirmed details about the massacre and the assailant that did little but fuel a contagion of fear.
For context, media folks reminded us of the unforgettable, high profile shootings that have taken place over the past few months, hinting of a problem that has grown out of control. They lumped together rather different types of incidents (the hate-inspired church killing in Charleston, the random shooting at a Louisiana movie theater in which two victims were slain, and the targeted killing of two employees of a Virginia television station by a disgruntled former co-worker seeking payback for perceived mistreatment) as if there is a pattern emerging.

USA TODAY
FBI report: Violent and property crime down slightly in 2014

Further adding to the state of alarm and confusion, headlines featured scary yet conflicting statistics from various sources. By reducing the standard threshold in defining a mass shooting (four or more killed by gunfire, not including the perpetrator), the incidence can reach incredible proportions. For example, the “Mass Shooting Tracker” website redefines a mass shooting as an incident in which at least four people (including the assailant) are shot, but not necessarily killed. By this criterion, there have been nearly 300 thus far this year.
Notwi
thstanding the sadness caused by each of these tragedies, nothing has really changed in term of risk. One can take virtually any period of months or years during the past few decades and find a series of shootings that seemed at the time to signal a new epidemic. The ‘80s were marked by a flurry of deadly postal shootings, which gave rise to the term “going postal.” The ‘90s witnessed a string of mass shootings in middle and high schools carried out by alienated adolescents with access to borrowed guns, prompting the venerable Dan Rather to declare an epidemic of school violence.
More recently, the “active shooter” has become the new boogeyman armed with a gun. Of course, there were shootings in public places long before this frightening catchphrase was created. Nowadays, any time someone shows up with a gun in a school, a church, a movie theater, a shopping mall or a restaurant, twitter becomes alive with messages of alarm.
I certainly don't mean to minimize the suffering of the Oregon victims and their families, but the shooting spree is not a reflection of more deadly times. Consider the facts.
According to a careful analysis of data on mass shootings (using the widely accepted definition of at least four killed), the Congressional Research Service found that there are, on average, just over 20 incidents annually. More important, the increase in cases, if there was one at all, is negligible. Indeed, the only genuine increase is in hype and hysteria.
James Alan Fox is the Lipman Professor of Criminology, Law and Public Policy at Northeastern University and a member of the USA TODAY Board of Contributors. He is co-author of Extreme Killing: Understanding Serial and Mass Murder.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/10/02/umpqua-community-college-shooting-oregon-mass-shooting-fbi-statistics-column/73199052/

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 244

RE: Umpqua mass shooting - 10/3/2015 12:04:23 PM

JVoV

Posts: 3657
Joined: 3/9/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
The situation is bad enough as it is. Why inject things that have nothing to do with it?

Then, why make parallels such as giving keys to an impaired driver? At least keep it on the same playing field, such as said drunk stealing a person's keys.

How is that parallel when none of the guns used in this horror were stolen? Butch's rant about stolen guns, however accurate, has absolutely nothing to do with this incident at all, and serves only as a distraction better left to another thread.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 245

RE: Umpqua mass shooting - 10/3/2015 12:32:53 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
The situation is bad enough as it is. Why inject things that have nothing to do with it?

Then, why make parallels such as giving keys to an impaired driver? At least keep it on the same playing field, such as said drunk stealing a person's keys.

How is that parallel when none of the guns used in this horror were stolen? Butch's rant about stolen guns, however accurate, has absolutely nothing to do with this incident at all, and serves only as a distraction better left to another thread.

When the real problem is mental health and bigotry, a lethal combination.
Evil will find away to kill.
The guy in Charleston had a backup plan, bombs, you really think that would have been an improvement.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to JVoV)

Post #: 246

RE: Umpqua mass shooting - 10/3/2015 12:33:30 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

But we could stop rewarding it with fame and media coverage, plastering your picture on every news feed, along with every available detail of your miserable life and the complaints you nursed. You pull a shameful crime like this, that picture you love of you fondling your rifle isn't going to be plastered on screens around the world, and the public isn't going to read your misbegotten ramblings. You'll be pissed on and forgotten, another nobody. We can't have a culture that feeds on this kind of violence, and then act surprised when it happens.

Referencing the above, I just came across this (from July of this year) over at Smithsonian.com:

Shootings and Mass Murders Seem to Be Contagious
Data spanning decades shows how high-profile events can cause outbreaks of similar killings that mirror the spread of disease

School shootings and mass killings sometimes seem to be spreading across America like a disease. Now, a mathematical analysis of hundreds of past events suggests a disturbing explanation: such high-impact violence may actually be contagious. A few killers actively admit to being influenced by previous murderers... So Sherry Towers of Arizona State University and her colleagues set out to try to quantify the effect on a large scale for the first time...

When reviewed as a whole, the combined data revealed that mass killings and school shootings do appear to create a contagious period that lasts about two weeks, during which time similar crimes are more likely to occur, the team reports this week in PLOS ONE. Previous research suggests that other types of crime and violence may also be contagious. It appears that suicides, for example, can sometimes cause other vulnerable people to take their own lives...

The authors believe that nonstop news coverage of high-profile killings and the people who perpetrate them likely plays a role in any contagion effect that does exist. Details of these events more easily reach the relatively small number of people disturbed enough to consider committing more, the authors note. This idea is supported by the fact that contagion doesn't appear to exist for crimes that don't get as much national attention.

K.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 247

RE: Umpqua mass shooting - 10/3/2015 12:35:18 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

Every single person going in for an abortion is going in to kill a human being.

You are a phoquing liar. Perhaps if you were to actually consult a doctor instead of your imaginary friend you would not put your feet in your mouth so often.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 248

RE: Umpqua mass shooting - 10/3/2015 12:52:14 PM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
When the real problem is mental health and bigotry, a lethal combination.
Evil will find away to kill.
The guy in Charleston had a backup plan, bombs, you really think that would have been an improvement.

And as Obama pointed out, every country has their fair share of mental health problems and bigotry but of all the civilised countries, only the US has the regularity of these massacres and killings every few months.
And only the US has such a prolification of publicly owned firearms - one for evey man, woman and child in the US.

Change the one thing that makes the US different from everywhere else that doesn't have this problem and you'll solve it.

I shouldn't need to spell it out for you... it's obvious.

_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

George Orwell, 1903-1950

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 249

RE: Umpqua mass shooting - 10/3/2015 1:07:32 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
When the real problem is mental health and bigotry, a lethal combination.
Evil will find away to kill.
The guy in Charleston had a backup plan, bombs, you really think that would have been an improvement.

And as Obama pointed out, every country has their fair share of mental health problems and bigotry but of all the civilised countries, only the US has the regularity of these massacres and killings every few months.
And only the US has such a prolification of publicly owned firearms - one for evey man, woman and child in the US.

Change the one thing that makes the US different from everywhere else that doesn't have this problem and you'll solve it.
I shouldn't need to spell it out for you... it's obvious.

It is a socialtal difference, like Mexico has tougher gun laws than you do and far more crime than we do.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 250

RE: Umpqua mass shooting - 10/3/2015 1:13:39 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Interesting thought experiment making the rounds on Facebook:

How about we treat every young man who wants to buy a gun like every woman who wants to get an abortion — mandatory 48-hr waiting period, parental permission, a note from his doctor proving he understands what he's about to do, a video he has to watch about the effects of gun violence, an ultrasound wand up the ass (just because). Let's close down all but one gun shop in every state and make him travel hundreds of miles, take time off work, and stay overnight in a strange town to get a gun. Make him walk through a gantlet of people holding photos of loved ones who were shot to death, people who call him a murderer and beg him not to buy a gun.

Interesting psychologically, at least. But I don't see the sense in directing one's outrage against anyone anywhere who wishes to purchase a firearm. There are thousands of homicides that occur between these each of these events, about which we do nothing. We don't increase penalties on illegal possession, we don't fund a concerted effort to prosecute traffickers. Instead, we let the media keep our eyes on one hand while the other engages in wholesale slaughter. It's crazy.

K.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 251

RE: Umpqua mass shooting - 10/3/2015 1:19:06 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

It is a socialtal difference, like Mexico has tougher gun laws than you do and far more crime than we do.

Not according to this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Mexico

Crime rates in Mexico per 100,000 inhabitants

2000
2001
2002
2003
2004
USA in 2004

Total Crimes
1433.81
1439.41
1391.54
1521.93
1503.71
4118.76

Murder
14.93
15.13
14.11
13.94
13.04
5.62

Murder with firearm
3.45
4.54
3.66
3.53
2.58
3.12

Assault
254.35
257.39
260.39
260.41
251.91
NA

Aggravated assault
171.06
172.02
185.01
187.33
186.68
310.14

Rape
11.89
11.9
13.33
13.05
14.26
32.99

Theft
148.27
108.11
100.22
116.74
112.47
2445.80

Automobile theft
161.15
161.52
162.10
150.66
139.86
432.12

Robbery
316.54
274.63
219.59
158.16
146.57
145.87

Burglary
145.72
153.58
142.58
NA
NA
746.22

Fraud
54.63
50.48
50.96
54.64
61.47
NA

Drug offenses
20.62
23.97
24.65
23.38
23.40
NA

Source: The 7th[4] and 8th[5] Surveys, United Nations

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 252

RE: Umpqua mass shooting - 10/3/2015 1:29:12 PM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
It is a socialtal difference, like Mexico has tougher gun laws than you do and far more crime than we do.

As usual, you side-step the issue.
We are talking about repeated gun killings and massacres in the US compared to anywhere else, not crime in general.
We have this same bullshit from you every time something like this crops up in the US and gets discussed in these forums.

Mexico may well have tougher gun laws than we do (I really can't be assed to look it up) but it is apparent that their police force is unable to enact the laws (almost certainly due to the drug barons running the country instead of the police) - much like the US police and authorities seem to be incompetent or unwilling to enforce what laws you do have regarding guns.

_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

George Orwell, 1903-1950

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 253

RE: Umpqua mass shooting - 10/3/2015 1:31:00 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

~ FR ~

With all due respect to the bravery of our first responders, who put their lives on the line when they enter these kinds of situations, the bravest person in Umpqua was the second person to stand up and say, "I'm a Christian." And the third, and....

I'd rather hear about them than some mad-at-the-world coward who offed himself rather than face what he had coming.

K.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 254

RE: Umpqua mass shooting - 10/3/2015 1:33:11 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

ORIGINAL: Kirata

~ FR ~

With all due respect to the bravery of our first responders, who put their lives on the line when they enter these kinds of situations, the bravest person in Umpqua was the second person to stand up and say, "I'm a Christian." And the third, and....

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 255

RE: Umpqua mass shooting - 10/3/2015 1:36:44 PM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

Change the one thing that makes the US different from everywhere else that doesn't have this problem and you'll solve it.
I shouldn't need to spell it out for you... it's obvious.

But the USA isn *entirely* different to anywhere else in the world, FD, and indeed is the only place in the world where things regarding murders and availability of guns proceed along logical lines and just as gun-fans here at CM have been patiently explaining to all of us for so long.

You have to ask yourself: our gun-policy here in the UK works in practice, sure - but, aha! - does it work in *theory*?

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 256

RE: Umpqua mass shooting - 10/3/2015 1:36:49 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
It is a socialtal difference, like Mexico has tougher gun laws than you do and far more crime than we do.

As usual, you side-step the issue.
We are talking about repeated gun killings and massacres in the US compared to anywhere else, not crime in general.
We have this same bullshit from you every time something like this crops up in the US and gets discussed in these forums.

Mexico may well have tougher gun laws than we do (I really can't be assed to look it up) but it is apparent that their police force is unable to enact the laws (almost certainly due to the drug barons running the country instead of the police) - much like the US police and authorities seem to be incompetent or unwilling to enforce what laws you do have regarding guns.

No I am not side stepping the issue. Do you really think it is safer in Mexico than the U S? I am pointing out that the difference is sociatal, the U S has a higher murder rate than England if you only count murder with knifes. How does that fit into your idea that the only difference is gun laws. Studies show that tighter gun laws here do not result in less crime. I don't care what studies show about European crime.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 257

RE: Umpqua mass shooting - 10/3/2015 1:38:33 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

It is a socialtal difference, like Mexico has tougher gun laws than you do and far more crime than we do.

Not according to this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Mexico

Crime rates in Mexico per 100,000 inhabitants

2000
2001
2002
2003
2004
USA in 2004

Total Crimes
1433.81
1439.41
1391.54
1521.93
1503.71
4118.76

Murder
14.93
15.13
14.11
13.94
13.04
5.62

Murder with firearm
3.45
4.54
3.66
3.53
2.58
3.12

Assault
254.35
257.39
260.39
260.41
251.91
NA

Aggravated assault
171.06
172.02
185.01
187.33
186.68
310.14

Rape
11.89
11.9
13.33
13.05
14.26
32.99

Theft
148.27
108.11
100.22
116.74
112.47
2445.80

Automobile theft
161.15
161.52
162.10
150.66
139.86
432.12

Robbery
316.54
274.63
219.59
158.16
146.57
145.87

Burglary
145.72
153.58
142.58
NA
NA
746.22

Fraud
54.63
50.48
50.96
54.64
61.47
NA

Drug offenses
20.62
23.97
24.65
23.38
23.40
NA

Source: The 7th[4] and 8th[5] Surveys, United Nations

The country is run by crime cartels, anyone who says that doesn't mean more crime and violence than we have just isn't paying attention.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 258

RE: Umpqua mass shooting - 10/3/2015 1:39:31 PM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

~ FR ~

With all due respect to the bravery of our first responders, who put their lives on the line when they enter these kinds of situations, the bravest person in Umpqua was the second person to stand up and say, "I'm a Christian." And the third, and....

I'd rather hear about them than some mad-at-the-world coward who offed himself rather than face what he had coming.

K.

Agreed.

I also agree with the announcer that these people should not be glorified in the media for what they did.
Don't plaster their names or life history or FB pages all over the media.
Focus on the innocent victims instead.

Or, IMHO, focus on removing the source of the problem rather than trying to patch up the failed results.

_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

George Orwell, 1903-1950

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 259

RE: Umpqua mass shooting - 10/3/2015 1:40:46 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Change the one thing that makes the US different from everywhere else that doesn't have this problem and you'll solve it.
I shouldn't need to spell it out for you... it's obvious.

But the USA isn *entirely* different to anywhere else in the world, FD, and indeed is the only place in the world where things regarding murders and availability of guns proceed along logical lines and just as gun-fans here at CM have been patiently explaining to all of us for so long.

You have to ask yourself: our gun-policy here in the UK works in practice, sure - but, aha! - does it work in *theory*?

New Zeland has our gun laws and your crime rate.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 260

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