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RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 8:27:15 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Notice how all of the mass murders with guns are committed by gun nuts?


I know of two mass murders on US soil, one involved box cutters and the other involved fertilizer and a truck.


they seem to be outliers.... in what is it now, 20 years, you can only think of two? how many victims?
How many children have been killed by guns, since?



The deaths of 3,164 (2,996+168) people are "outliers" because it was over 20 years ago? Or do they not matter because the perpetrators didn't use a firearm?

Are you looking for the number of children killed by firearms or the total number of children killed, eg by cars, pools, cancer, etc?



Hmmmm now I didnt say or suggest any such thing about the deaths of 3000+ people being an outlier did I...
no
read slowly.



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(in reply to ifmaz)
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RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 8:32:59 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I didn't know NBC and US news were anti-gun group...are they?

Butch

They are both heavely pro gun control and refuse to give coverage to anything pro gun. Remember NBC lying about the Zimmerman 911 call?
NBC called for gun control after Richard Speck killed several nursing students in their dorm ....... with a knife.
They get most of their numbers from the Brady Bunch, so they are dupes, like you.

And you still refuse to answer my question so you must only care about kids killed with guns.
Do you or do you not want the same penalties against someone who owns a pool without a dome fence?
Do you or do you not want people to have the same liability if someone breaks
into their home steals a knife and kills with it or if their kid gets hurt with a knife as they do if it is a gun.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 8:33:59 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Kirata... then I will insult them... they are not grown...experienced and responsible adults at that age... of course 21 does not make them that way either the brain is not fully developed until well in the 20's but it is close enough at 20... Below that they are still children even if they can vote...drive and die in the military. They make rash emotional decisions and that is why 18 to 24 year old commit the most murders.

To me adults are when their brains are fully developed and they learn to control their emotions and become responsible.

Well leaving aside the issue of whether or not they're "children," I won't contest the accuracy of your observations otherwise.

K.


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 283
RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 8:41:53 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Well... then how about the CDC is it also an anti gun group?

I already answered your other question over and over... go back and look them up... this time read what I say.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 284
RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 8:45:18 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Well... then how about the CDC is it also an anti gun group?

I already answered your other question over and over... go back and look them up... this time read what I say.

Butch

When the did their infamous study on child deaths from guns they included 25 year old gangbangers in shootouts with the police. So if you are using that study burn it.

Now more recently they confirmed the Kleck study showing that for every person you say is injrued envolving a firearm a minimum of five, and possibly 20 crimes are stopped with one.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 10/8/2015 8:49:15 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 285
RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 8:54:06 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Well... then how about the CDC is it also an anti gun group?

I already answered your other question over and over... go back and look them up... this time read what I say.

Butch

No you didn't, you said you support fences, but when I say I support guns safes that isn't enough do you want those people imprisoned. To have the same reasonable precautions you have to have dome fences over pools and boots on cars, do you want those things required. And you most assuredly didn't say that if they steal your knife and kill with it that you should be as libel as if they stole your gun.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 286
RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 9:00:52 PM   
ifmaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Notice how all of the mass murders with guns are committed by gun nuts?


I know of two mass murders on US soil, one involved box cutters and the other involved fertilizer and a truck.


they seem to be outliers.... in what is it now, 20 years, you can only think of two? how many victims?
How many children have been killed by guns, since?



The deaths of 3,164 (2,996+168) people are "outliers" because it was over 20 years ago? Or do they not matter because the perpetrators didn't use a firearm?

Are you looking for the number of children killed by firearms or the total number of children killed, eg by cars, pools, cancer, etc?


Hmmmm now I didnt say or suggest any such thing about the deaths of 3000+ people being an outlier did I...
no
read slowly.


Your statement was "they seem to be outliers.... in what is it now, 20 years, you can only think of two? how many victims?", bolded for your convenience (if you wish to be condescending in your replies by asking me to read slowly I can do the same and this conversation will quickly degrade into puerile name-calling). The "they" in "they seem to be outliers" refers to the attacks which claimed 3,164 people's lives or the perpetrators of said attacks. Are you attempting to downplay the significance of both attacks because they were not carried out with a firearm?

(in reply to Lucylastic)
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RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 9:12:26 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Bama you must not read my posts... that's all i can figure... I'll bet you read the first line get all upset and don't read the rest.... Over and over I have said irresponsible gun owners that fail to reasonably secure their weapons should be held responsible for the consequences of their actions. This includes accidental deaths and injuries of children with unsecured weapons AND crimes committed, thus gangangers, with stolen weapons that were irresponsibly unsecured.

Guns are different than knives... or swimming pools... or poisonings and all other types of accidents because... A gun is designed... its purpose is to kill... and thus should have a higher standard of responsibility of ownership and training.

A knife can kill but it is not its purpose today... a bat can kill... it is not its purpose... dranio can kill... it is not its purpose... a gun can kill and IT IS ITS PURPOSE its only purpose. To defend... a gun owner must be prepared to use it... that means to kill if necessary. If you are not prepared to kill in defense then you should not have a gun because then it will not defend but be a target for theft or an opportunity for children to injure or kill.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/8/2015 9:15:49 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
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RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 9:17:04 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Bama you must not read my posts... that's all i can figure... I'll bet you read the first line get all upset and don't read the rest.... Over and over I have said irresponsible gun owners that fail to reasonably secure their weapons should be held responsible for the consequences of their actions. This includes accidental deaths and injuries of children with unsecured weapons AND crimes committed, thus gangangers, with stolen weapons that were irresponsibly unsecured.

Guns are different than knives... or swimming pools... or poisonings and all other types of accidents because... A gun is designed... its purpose is to kill... and thus should have a higher standard of responsibility of ownership and training.

A knife can kill but it is not its purpose... a bat can kill... it is not its purpose... dranio can kill... it is not its purpose... a gun can kill and IT IS ITS PURPOSE its only purpose. To defend... a gun owner must be prepared to use it... that means to kill if necessary. If you are not prepared to kill in defense then you should not have a gun because then it will not defend but be a target for theft or an opportunity for children to injure or kill.

Butch


So your answer is that even though there are more children killed by each of the others, and each of the others are going up while gun accidents are going down, you only want gun owners penalized. Thank you, you are on an anti-gun crusade with little realtive consern for other dangers. Get the guns get the guns that is all you can see.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 289
RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 9:17:06 PM   
ifmaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Bama you must not read my posts... that's all i can figure... I'll bet you read the first line get all upset and don't read the rest.... Over and over I have said irresponsible gun owners that fail to reasonably secure their weapons should be held responsible for the consequences of their actions. This includes accidental deaths and injuries of children with unsecured weapons AND crimes committed, thus gangangers, with stolen weapons that were irresponsibly unsecured.

Guns are different than knives... or swimming pools... or poisonings and all other types of accidents because... A gun is designed... its purpose is to kill... and thus should have a higher standard of responsibility of ownership and training.

A knife can kill but it is not its purpose... a bat can kill... it is not its purpose... dranio can kill... it is not its purpose... a gun can kill and IT IS ITS PURPOSE its only purpose. To defend... a gun owner must be prepared to use it... that means to kill if necessary. If you are not prepared to kill in defense then you should not have a gun because then it will not defend but be a target for theft or an opportunity for children to injure or kill.

Butch



The NSSF would disagree with your assertion that a firearm's only purpose is to kill. A firearm, like a knife, a truck full of fertilizer, box cutters, or any other tool, can be used for many different purposes.

EDIT: Poison kills (and its only use is killing) yet I can buy large quantities of poison at my local Home Depot. A refillable bait station, or "assault station", can be reloaded to perform mass killings.


< Message edited by ifmaz -- 10/8/2015 9:21:50 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 9:23:03 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

a gun can kill and IT IS ITS PURPOSE its only purpose

This crap again? A firearm is a weapon. As such it can injure, and it can kill. But to say that the only purpose of guns is to kill is bunk. It that were the case, they would be the engineering failure of the millennium. Only about 1 in 3 gunshot wounds are fatal. You wouldn't accept that kind of failure rate in a soap dish.

K.


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Profile   Post #: 291
RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 9:26:22 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		I was referencing the two attacks ......Oklahoma and 911...not the number of people that died....however the death toll compared to mass shootings, or murders by guns is miniscule by number.

I have never downplayed ANY terrorist attack, however it is different. For OKlahoma and 9/11 it was a maximum of 25 people who attacked. How many gun deaths and how many perpetrators.

My original comment was about mass murderers being gun nuts...Yes I should have said most in stead of all. my bad...It doesnt change the fact that MOST mass murders and mass shootings in the USA are committed by gun nuts.
The other three disgusting mass deaths are by other kinds of nuts. Religious, Political, anti government extremists.
I have no interest in puerile, this evening. Ive read far too much already from others.



_____________________________

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<) )╯SUCH
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\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
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(in reply to ifmaz)
Profile   Post #: 292
RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 9:28:49 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Bama... I am not going to post links to statistics again... if you choose not to read them then you can be ignorant...

33,800 men women and children are killed in motor vehicle accidents... we have laws specific for the irresponsible use of that vehicle. You can and will be fined... incarcerated...and sued

33,600 men women and children are killed by firearms at least in 2013... a majority of these were committed with unsecured or stolen weapons... yet there is no direct law or penalty to hold irresponsible gun owners responsible.

If you can't get around the swimming pool thing then there is no use talking with you.

Just because there are many ways for children and adults to be killed accidentally or on purpose that is not a reason not to address a real problem with irresponsible gun owners.

Butch




_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 293
RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 9:48:54 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Bama... I am not going to post links to statistics again... if you choose not to read them then you can be ignorant...

33,800 men women and children are killed in motor vehicle accidents... we have laws specific for the irresponsible use of that vehicle. You can and will be fined... incarcerated...and sued

33,600 men women and children are killed by firearms at least in 2013... a majority of these were committed with unsecured or stolen weapons... yet there is no direct law or penalty to hold irresponsible gun owners responsible.

If you can't get around the swimming pool thing then there is no use talking with you.

Just because there are many ways for children and adults to be killed accidentally or on purpose that is not a reason not to address a real problem with irresponsible gun owners.

Butch




So you are saying that more people are killed with something that isn't supposed to kill than something that is supposed to kill (a it isn't, it is designed to incapacitate, killing is a common by product, B the majority of the gun deaths are suicides so they would most assuredly be replaced with another means, see Japan) we should focus on the one designed to kill. Wouldn't you say that the deaths by something allegedly innoctious is a greater consern?
I make the same level if safety requirements for pool as you for guns but you say I am unreasonable. Your safety demands would also require car owners to boot thier cars at night.

When I was a kid, gun locks didn't exist, and gun safes were not avaliable to the general public. We depended on education. As a result we were accident free. You want to rely on things rather than knowlege, I trust knowlege much more. I have a gun safe, I whole heartedly approve of using them. But I cannot approve of a big brother program.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 9:51:24 PM   
ifmaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I was referencing the two attacks ......Oklahoma and 911...not the number of people that died....however the death toll compared to mass shootings, or murders by guns is miniscule by number.

I have never downplayed ANY terrorist attack, however it is different. For OKlahoma and 9/11 it was a maximum of 25 people who attacked. How many gun deaths and how many perpetrators.

My original comment was about mass murderers being gun nuts...Yes I should have said most in stead of all. my bad...It doesnt change the fact that MOST mass murders and mass shootings in the USA are committed by gun nuts.
The other three disgusting mass deaths are by other kinds of nuts. Religious, Political, anti government extremists.
I have no interest in puerile, this evening. Ive read far too much already from others.


I would argue all mass killings, shooting or otherwise, are carried out by "nuts". I would also argue the number of perpetrators is a useless statistic. Additionally, the number of mass shootings during the same time period of the Oklahoma Bombing and 9/11/2001 is far less than the attacks mentioned. My math shows 363 killed since 2000.

If the problem, as you are asserting, is firearms and the lack of oversight then surely prior to 1968 we would be seeing a massive death toll related to firearms. The Gun Control Act of 1968 ended the era of easily accessible firearms being shipped to one's doorstep. Today, if I wanted to purchase a firearm via the mail I'd need it shipped to my Federal Firearms License-holder (FFL; think "gun shop") and I'd undergo a NICS background check. NICS, it should be noted, is routinely underfunded by the same Congress that would pass more laws instead of enforcing existing ones.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 295
RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 9:52:19 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

33,600 men women and children are killed by firearms at least in 2013... a majority of these were committed with unsecured or stolen weapons...

Almost two thirds of those deaths are self-inflicted, they killed themselves, and you have no idea how many were committed with "unsecured or stolen weapons." But I'll warrant the number is significant among the remaining homicides. So why don't you suggest stiffer penalties for illegal possession, and a greater effort to track those illegal guns back to their source and prosecute the traffickers? In the 0-20 age range that most concerns you, homicides outnumber accidental deaths by a factor of fourteen.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/8/2015 9:57:39 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 296
RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 10:03:43 PM   
ifmaz


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Joined: 7/22/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

33,600 men women and children are killed by firearms at least in 2013... a majority of these were committed with unsecured or stolen weapons...

Almost two thirds of those deaths are self-inflicted, they killed themselves, and you have no idea how many were committed with "unsecured or stolen weapons." But I'll warrant the number is significant among the remaining homicides. So why don't you suggest stiffer penalties for illegal possession, and a greater effort to track those illegal guns back to their source and prosecute the traffickers? In the 0-20 age range that most concerns you, homicides outnumber accidental deaths by a factor of fourteen.

K.




VP Biden has already stated that the government does not have the time to prosecute people found to be lying on the ATF 4473 form. For those that may not know, the 4473 form is required whenever one buys a firearm from a Federal Firearm License holder (FFL; think "gun shop").

Let me reiterate: the government does not, by and large, investigate people attempting to buy a firearm that are declined by NICS, the National Instant Criminal Background Check System.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 297
RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 10:17:30 PM   
lovmuffin


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Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

33,600 men women and children are killed by firearms at least in 2013... a majority of these were committed with unsecured or stolen weapons...

Almost two thirds of those deaths are self-inflicted, they killed themselves, and you have no idea how many were committed with "unsecured or stolen weapons." But I'll warrant the number is significant among the remaining homicides. So why don't you suggest stiffer penalties for illegal possession, and a greater effort to track those illegal guns back to their source and prosecute the traffickers? In the 0-20 age range that most concerns you, homicides outnumber accidental deaths by a factor of fourteen.

K.




VP Biden has already stated that the government does not have the time to prosecute people found to be lying on the ATF 4473 form. For those that may not know, the 4473 form is required whenever one buys a firearm from a Federal Firearm License holder (FFL; think "gun shop").

Let me reiterate: the government does not, by and large, investigate people attempting to buy a firearm that are declined by NICS, the National Instant Criminal Background Check System.



I've said this many times on some of these gun threads. Just another unenforced law that would come in handy to get more of these idiots off the street, by the tens of thousands. Not only that but the idiots are standing right there in the gun shop,easy pickings for law enforcement. I don't believe for one second these idiots throw up their hands and resign themselves to the notion they can't get their grubby paws on a firearm.

_____________________________

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(in reply to ifmaz)
Profile   Post #: 298
RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 10:32:33 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

33,600 men women and children are killed by firearms at least in 2013... a majority of these were committed with unsecured or stolen weapons...

Almost two thirds of those deaths are self-inflicted, they killed themselves, and you have no idea how many were committed with "unsecured or stolen weapons." But I'll warrant the number is significant among the remaining homicides. So why don't you suggest stiffer penalties for illegal possession, and a greater effort to track those illegal guns back to their source and prosecute the traffickers? In the 0-20 age range that most concerns you, homicides outnumber accidental deaths by a factor of fourteen.

K.




VP Biden has already stated that the government does not have the time to prosecute people found to be lying on the ATF 4473 form. For those that may not know, the 4473 form is required whenever one buys a firearm from a Federal Firearm License holder (FFL; think "gun shop").

Let me reiterate: the government does not, by and large, investigate people attempting to buy a firearm that are declined by NICS, the National Instant Criminal Background Check System.


Which makes a joke out of the argument to increase the number of background checks.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to ifmaz)
Profile   Post #: 299
RE: Oregon Shooter had fifteen firearms - 10/8/2015 10:39:42 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I didn't know NBC and US news were anti-gun group...are they? How about the Washington Post and the USAtoday... how about the NYtimes?

How about the CDC are they good enough... according to them

Mortality
All injury deaths
Number of deaths: 192,945
Deaths per 100,000 population: 60.2
All poisoning deaths
Number of deaths: 48,545
Deaths per 100,000 population: 15.4
Motor vehicle traffic deaths
Number of deaths: 33,804
Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.7
All firearm deaths
Number of deaths: 33,636
Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.6

The above statistics kind of shoot your swimming pool and poisoning deaths all to hell gun deaths are almost the same.


Butch

Now you are mixing apples and oranges.
1. Sucides don't count because
A No security measure will stop a suicidal person from getting to his own guns
B If he couldn't get a gun he would use something else.
C Japan proves B, they have very few guns and a much higher suicide rate than we do.

2. We were talking about accidents killing children. In the age group that the rest of the world agrees constitutes children both pools and poisons are several times as likely to harm children than firearms.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 300
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