RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest!

RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (Full Version)

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BamaD -> RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (11/1/2015 1:45:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD With those words and touching your gun is indeed a threat. I said those words to you, not to him, to him I, once agian, ordered him off my property. When I touched my gun, not drew it, just touched it, he finally heard me tell him to get off my property. You can ask as politely as you like. Your actions together with whatever words you chose to say to him, make that a direct threat to him. If you muttered something while sitting in a rocker on your porch drinking a cup of tea in the balmy afternoon sunshine, they would be nothing more than a polite request. However, by standing there with your hand on your gun or anywhere near your gun, in a stance that suggests you might be inclined to use it, turns a string of polite request verbiage into a direct personal threat to him. The actual words, polite or otherwise, on their own makes no difference at all. That's the difference. And one might ponder what the fuck you were doing out at 3am in the morning if you weren't looking for an excuse for a confrontation. Any sensible person would be inside, in the warm, minding their own business and probably asleep - unless the trespasser happens to start climbing through a window into your house... that's a different ball of wax. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Do you remember telling me how rather than running from the thugs in your area you walked down the street with a mace? Now that is an attempt to intimidate, and is most assuredly aggressive. Attempt to intimidate, yes. It served it's purpose. However, I made no direct threat to anyone which is why the police took no action for it. Much like walking down the road with a baseball bat. On it's own, it is not a threat (and quite legal) - unless wielded in such a manner as to be one. Maybe your redneck attitude means you cannot distinguish the finer nuances of the language coupled with certain actions. Perhaps this is why you cannot comprehend what is a threat or something that is effective but not directly threatening. Perhaps that is why you feel you need your gun and the likes of me don't. I was on my property. He came after me. I told him to leave repeatedly. He kept working in closer. In Alabama I not only was justified in touching my gun, I would have been justified (under the law) in pulling it, and in shooting him. I was on my property. I don't need an excuse to been on my poarch day or night. I was having a smoke. You have admitted that just having that mace in public is agaisnt the law in Merry Old England so don't give me any crap about how legal your actions were, what is wrong can't you keep track of your lies. Unlike you I don't think I am Superman. I don't believe in a fair fight either. If I have to fight I want to be sure I am the better armed person in the fight. I understand that you are so paranoid of guns that you can't see straight, and it is clear that you can't think straight.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (11/1/2015 2:11:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD I was on my property. He came after me. I told him to leave repeatedly. He kept working in closer. In Alabama I not only was justified in touching my gun, I would have been justified (under the law) in pulling it, and in shooting him. I was on my property. I don't need an excuse to been on my poarch day or night. I was having a smoke. So you don't need an excuse to be outside at 3am. I get that. But why do you always want to assert yourself at every opportunity??? I have my smoke indoors but even if I did go outside, I wouldn't be confronting every asshat that happens to tread on my property - that is confrontational behaviour and asking for trouble. This is the problem with you rednecks; alway brash and up-front and in-your-face just because you can and the law allows it. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD You have admitted that just having that mace in public is agaisnt the law in Merry Old England so don't give me any crap about how legal your actions were, what is wrong can't you keep track of your lies. Not lies, I am well aware of what I said. It is a weapon. I took it with me just that once. Like the baseball bat, had I wielded it menacingly, it would be illegal to carry it and I would have been prosecuted for having it. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Unlike you I don't think I am Superman. Neither do I. But there again, I don't go stirring up tension just for the hell of it as you seem to do. Given your situation at that incident, I would have quietly gone back indoors or just stood there and watched him if necessary. There was no need to confront him in any way shape or form or uttered a word. But of course you did - because you can and you had your precious gun if you needed it. [8\|] I have a neighbour like that. Everyone calls him a shit-stirer and trouble maker. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD I don't believe in a fair fight either. If I have to fight I want to be sure I am the better armed person in the fight. I don't. I make sure I have all the better options, not just weapons and arms. And in a lot of cases, I avoid the fights. It's usually better not to do anything to stir the muck. But you have to because it's your duty to. People like that here are labeled gobarella or something equally ascerbic. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD I understand that you are so paranoid of guns that you can't see straight, and it is clear that you can't think straight. Oh peerlleeaaaassssseeee!!! What a crock of shit!! I'm not paranoid of guns. You appear to be sooo paranoid that you can't live without one. You can't even envisage a world without guns at every corner. I live in a fairly safe and happy society where guns just aren't necessary for most people. You obviously can't say that otherwise you wouldn't think that owning a firearm is so essential to life that not having one handy scares you utterly shitless even when on your own property. I have none of those fears here and I don't have to think twice about myself or anyone in my family or circle of friends or neighbours getting shot just because someone doesn't like your face one particular day or they happen to step on your front yard. Jeeez Bama. You have nooo idea just how fucking paranoid that makes you sound.

justlooking4now3 -> RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (11/1/2015 2:25:27 PM)
Do you actually READ the links you post or understand the data? From the link you supplied.... http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/facts/2008/figure_12.png CHART: Homicide victims from 1993 to 2007 (number per year) (The one you posted) Conclusion: The number of murder victims fluctuated slightly from 1993 to 2007, whereas manslaughter remained relatively stable. The number of murder victims peaked in 1999, at 344; the number of manslaughter victims peaked in 2002, at 48. The 253 murder and 29 manslaughter victims recorded in 2007 were the lowest annual number yet recorded. http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/aic/research/homicide/homiciderate2.png CHART: Homicide incidents in Australia, 1989-90 to 2006-07 (number) Conclusion: The figure shows that although there have been fluctuations from year to year, the number of homicide incidents has shown a steady decline since the inception of the NHMP in 1989. 2006-07 saw the second-lowest number of homicide incidents in the collection period. http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/facts/2006/figure_13.png CHART: Homicides involving firearms as a percentage of total homicides, 1915-2003 Conclusion: The percentage of homicides committed with a firearm continued a declining trend which began in 1969. In 2003, fewer than 16% of homicides involved firearms. The figure was similar in 2002 and 2001, down from a high of 44% in 1968. (Edited for emphasis)

bounty44 -> RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (11/1/2015 3:35:01 PM)
nm...

Lucylastic -> RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (11/1/2015 5:17:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/more-guns-more-dead-cops-study-finds-n409356 Police officers are most likely to be killed in states where the most people own guns, a new study finds. Methods. We obtained the number LEOs killed from 1996 to 2010 from a Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) database. We calculated homicide rates per state as the number of officers killed per number of LEOs per state, obtained from another FBI database. We obtained the mean household firearm ownership for each state from the Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System. Results. Using Poisson regression and controlling for factors known to affect homicide rates, we associated firearm ownership with the homicide rates for LEOs (incidence rate ratio = 1.044; P = .005); our results were supported by cross-sectional and longitudinal sensitivity analyses. LEO homicide rates were 3 times higher in states with high firearm ownership compared with states with low firearm ownership. Conclusions. High public gun ownership is a risk for occupational mortality for LEOs in the United States. States could consider methods for reducing firearm ownership as a way to reduce occupational deaths of LEOs. ~Source This kind of shit is a perversion of science to political ends. Correlation does not establish causation. There are numerous factors that could influence both rates of household gun ownership and officer fatalities, none of which are controlled, and the study doesn't even distinguish between legally owned firearms and officers killed with illegal guns. It's also not clear how they obtained data on household firearms ownership from the BRFSS, because they couldn't have. BRFSS Modules by State by Data Questions on household firearm ownership were only included in the BRFSS in 2001, 2002, and 2004... Because the BRFSS firearm data were only available for 3 years, we also collected a proxy of firearm ownership. The Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System reports data on completed suicides in the United States. Firearm suicides as a percent of all suicides has been used as an annual measure of firearm ownership rate. ~Source The rest isn't much better. K. yet you dispute everytown, and mother jones, who had the same links to all the gun deaths as being partisan...but bearing arms is the arbiter of truth? Im also not surprised that you dismiss suicide by guns. But I do love the bit about "Correlation does not establish causation"... Thats what most people around here ignore. but it depends on what "type of people" we are, ahem discussing.

ifmaz -> RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (11/1/2015 5:32:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether You justify your need to have a firearm by living in a bad part of town. You could always move.... ... Could you not also follow your own advice and relocate to a country without the right to bear arms? What is preventing you from doing so?

Kirata -> RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (11/1/2015 5:39:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic yet you dispute everytown, and mother jones, who had the same links to all the gun deaths as being partisan...but bearing arms is the arbiter of truth? I never touted "bearing arms" as an "arbiter of truth." quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic Im also not surprised that you dismiss suicide by guns. I didn't "dismiss" suicide by guns. I questioned the author's use of a dubious proxy for household gun ownership when more definitive measures exist, e.g., the University of Chicago's General Social Survey. K.

BamaD -> RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (11/1/2015 7:36:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/more-guns-more-dead-cops-study-finds-n409356 Police officers are most likely to be killed in states where the most people own guns, a new study finds. Methods. We obtained the number LEOs killed from 1996 to 2010 from a Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) database. We calculated homicide rates per state as the number of officers killed per number of LEOs per state, obtained from another FBI database. We obtained the mean household firearm ownership for each state from the Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System. Results. Using Poisson regression and controlling for factors known to affect homicide rates, we associated firearm ownership with the homicide rates for LEOs (incidence rate ratio = 1.044; P = .005); our results were supported by cross-sectional and longitudinal sensitivity analyses. LEO homicide rates were 3 times higher in states with high firearm ownership compared with states with low firearm ownership. Conclusions. High public gun ownership is a risk for occupational mortality for LEOs in the United States. States could consider methods for reducing firearm ownership as a way to reduce occupational deaths of LEOs. ~Source This kind of shit is a perversion of science to political ends. Correlation does not establish causation. There are numerous factors that could influence both rates of household gun ownership and officer fatalities, none of which are controlled, and the study doesn't even distinguish between legally owned firearms and officers killed with illegal guns. It's also not clear how they obtained data on household firearms ownership from the BRFSS, because they couldn't have. BRFSS Modules by State by Data Questions on household firearm ownership were only included in the BRFSS in 2001, 2002, and 2004... Because the BRFSS firearm data were only available for 3 years, we also collected a proxy of firearm ownership. The Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System reports data on completed suicides in the United States. Firearm suicides as a percent of all suicides has been used as an annual measure of firearm ownership rate. ~Source The rest isn't much better. K. I notice that many of the same people who go bananas when it is pointed out that the idea that guns cause crime when masive drops in crime correspond to unprecidented firearms membership swarm to the idea that if there are a high number of cops killings in states with more guns then it must be because there are more guns. Has it occured to them that more cop killings correspond to more violent criminals, and more violent criminals leads to more legally owned firearms?

tweakabelle -> RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (11/2/2015 1:15:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 FD....... you are wasting your time trying to educate the stupid. Many have pointed out the links between death rates/suicides and firearms, but it just doesnt sink in with them. Yep. You are so correct. I have given up counting the number of times I have been forced to post the correct stats about the 1996 Australian gun law changes and their results, which are nothing like the claims made in the OP. Apparently the NRA has been parroting this claim for years in the US and some of the more gullible gun nuts (if that's not too much of an redundancy) have come to believe that these mistaken politically motivated claims are gospel truth. For one example, check out my post #377 here @ http://www.collarchat.com/m_4843055/mpage_19/key_plateauing/tm.htm#4845396 It is also interesting to see so many pro-gun people posting US stats that date from the mid-90s and contrasting the subsequent fall in the murder rate with the increase in gun sales. As I have posted at least twice in the last month or so, (with respectable citations to prove the point) the mid-90s represent the high point in a spike in gun violence in the US that began in the late 1960s. The stats have continued to decline to today's stats, which show US murder rates at historically normal levels, about 50% below the mid-90s stats. Using mid-90s stats as a starting point conveys a very skewed and inaccurate picture of historical levels of the US murder rate. It is no coincidence that this skewed picture favours the gun lobby's arguments. It is also the case the while US gun sales are at record levels, the number of gun-owning households is at about 50% of its historical high, due to a similar decrease in the numbers of hunters. So it appears that existing gun owners are making multiple purchases of new guns, not that more Americans are purchasing guns. Ignoring this highly relevant stat also skews the picture to favour the gun lobby's arguments. But I wonder if there is any point in posting all this info yet again. It would make more sense to go on a snow skiing holiday in the Sahara than expect some of the more fanatical gun nuts to take any notice of these relevant facts. Hopefully those with open minds on this issue will take notice and factor this info into their thinking on the issue.

Real0ne -> RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (11/2/2015 5:36:21 PM)
not so fast [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/Gunz/smallest%20666.gif[/image]

BamaD -> RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (11/2/2015 5:56:20 PM)
I wouldn't be confronting every asshat that happens to tread on my property - that is confrontational behaviour and asking for trouble. Once again you didn't really pay attention. I didn't confront, he did. What do you call it when a person tries to sneak up on you. When he annouces that he is engaging in illegal activity. When he repeatedly tries to get you to do so as well. When he ignores repeated requests to leave the property. When each time you ask him to leave he moves in closer to you. He confronted me, I didn't confront him. This shows one of your basic problems. Nothing he does that doesn't draw blood counts. Anything I do top stop him is aggressive. He has as much right in my yard as I do. You have to believe that if you believe I have no business asking what he is doing there because you think that is confrontational. You ignore that I asked him what he was doing there. You forget that when he told me he was a drug dealer. You forget that I asked him to leave. You forget that he insisted that I buy from him. You forget that he continued to insist that I buy from him and kept manuvering closer to me. You forget that only after all this did I touch, not draw, not display, but just touched it and in a different demeaner told him to leave and never come back. Any sane person could see that he confronted me. Any sane person could see that he was looking for trouble. Any sane person could see that I was only defending myself. Any sane person could see that I used restraint, under those circumstances I could have legally killed him but I let him go. But you don't care about that, I should have waited till he got close enough to attack, called a time out, and gone inside to get a chair. Of course then you would say that I should have locked the door and waited for the cops, it usually only takes about 15 to 20 minutes for them to get there, surely the drug dealer, if that is all he was, would have waited for them.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (11/2/2015 6:22:59 PM)
"I didn't confront, he did. What do you call it when a person tries to sneak up on you." And you couldn't ignore him? Really you couldn't?? "When he annouces that he is engaging in illegal activity. When he repeatedly tries to get you to do so as well. " And again, couldn't you just ignore him?? Or just say "No thanks"?? "When he ignores repeated requests to leave the property. When each time you ask him to leave he moves in closer to you. " And this is where you start to get confrontational. Every episode you've ever mentioned where you 'asked someone to leave', it seems to me there were plenty of other options - but you get all huffy and self-important and want to stand your ground. And your whole tone is that you assumed he is going to attack you. So you made sure he knew you had a gun and likely to use it. Can't you see that's tantamount to waving a red flag to bull?? Every word you've said and your way of handling things smacks of paranoia and fear. I'm not saying it isn't justified. What I am saying, is the way you approach problems is confrontational to most people. I don't give a flying fuck if someone is trying to sell me drugs or is walking on my turf. As long as they don't actually try to physically attack me or cause any significant damage, I just let them get on with it. It just ain't worth the potential aggro. As I've said several times, most asshats are full of bluster and bravado and a big mouth.

BamaD -> RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (11/2/2015 6:37:56 PM)
So you made sure he knew you had a gun and likely to use it. Only at the end, and only if he attacked me. Since you were not there how do you know so much about his demener? Are you really going to tell me that a person is going to try to sneak up on you in the middle of the night because he has your best interest at heart. Oh yes, because the intended victim is not supposed to do anything until acctually attacked, got to see to it the attacker has the advantage. And no you didn't say it would have been illegal if you threatened someone with it you acknowledged first that it violated your law by having it. Then you claimed that it was illegal only if you took it outside, now it was like a baseball bat and only illegal if you threatended someone with it. Now any sane person will tell you that a two by four with nails sticking out of it is by no means the same thing as a baseball bat.

BamaD -> RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (11/2/2015 6:48:23 PM)
Can't you see that's tantamount to waving a red flag to bull?? You fool, up until that moment he thought he had the advantage. I let him know he didn't. But no, I should have let him continue to manuver closer to me till I had no choice but to kill him, yep that would have been fair or reasonable. Perhaps unfortunately I do not have a "normal" fear reaction, there was no point in this were I was afraid. That left my head clear to accurately assess his actions, stance, and demeneor. Contrary to what you want to think, I did not act out of fear, but out of a careful tactical assessement of the situation. Your red flag comment seems to assume that this led to violence, when it did the exact opposite. He departed, post haste, and neither he nor any of his friends have bothered me since. That was over two years ago. Your "civilized" approach would turn you into their ATM. Or as you advocated ealier you would turn tail and run.

Kirata -> RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (11/2/2015 7:06:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: justlooking4now3 Do you actually READ the links you post or understand the data? Do you, bozo? Tell me what I said that you disagree with. Quote me. K.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (11/2/2015 7:15:38 PM)
Well....I'm here to say that...I have multiple guns....and....while the crime stats here....at my house aren't the best data.....with 11 guns....9 of which are placed in clipped holsters....one in each chamber, under tables throughout the house/in coats....under my pillow (and I'm a fairly big guy....so....few would be afraid of me....regardless)....I can say....along with several signs around my property ("My bullets can travel faster than you.....can you run faster than a bullet?" and "this sign {showing a gun pointed at them} is to protect YOU")....I can say, I've never had a kid enter my home but.....that said...I'm not a fan of guns.....I'm a fan of safety. All are loaded with hollow points. (Can't wait to spend them).

BamaD -> RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (11/3/2015 12:49:15 AM)
Given your situation at that incident, I would have quietly gone back indoors or just stood there and watched him if necessary. So I should have hidden inside or just stood there and watched him advance on me. He didn't just cross my yard, as you seem to want to pretend. He was sneaking up on me and continued to advance on me. But no, I should have run inside and hidden from him, after all, he has as much right in my yard as I do. A I am not a redneck B Even if I was, I'm not the coward you seem to think everyone should be.

joether -> RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (11/3/2015 8:08:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Can you show a direct correlation to between the two concepts Other than the fact that the two happened simultaniously no. However if you were right the increase in guns would have resulted in an increase in crime regardless of other factors. How do guns get into the hands of criminals? Is there a public gun store that caters only to criminals and terrorists? No, many are first time offenders. Some obtain guys through theft. The remainder simply barter and trade to get their guns. When guns are freely available, more criminals can obtain firearms. When there are strict gun laws, the number of guns falling into the wrong hands is greatly diminished. How many guns are found to be from residents of Chicago verse outside the city? Or for Australia? Less guns, less gun related crime. More guns, more gun related crime. Its like clockwork to the human mind. Since if guns help deter crime, then Texas should be the safest fucking state in the whole nation! Check out the diagrams from this link. How much safer is Texas, with its low restrictions on firearms compared to my state of Massachusetts, with relatively strict firearm laws? Maybe it has something to do with how much a state pays to educate their kids to be 'good citizens' of the nation: [image]http://i.huffpost.com/gen/2503338/original.jpg[/image]

lovmuffin -> RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (11/3/2015 8:16:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether Some obtain guys through theft. Is that like when a woman steals another woman's boyfriend ??

Real0ne -> RE: Gun Sales Increase, Violence Declines The 2nd Amendment Protects the Rest! (11/3/2015 9:26:24 AM)
What about this? Violent crime is rising as a result of so called gun control. Victims of violent crime statistics Victims of violent crimes from 1996 to 2007 (number) Note: Number of victims presented here represents revised estimates on numbers published in earlier editions of Australian crime: facts & figures Year Homicide ...Assault ...Sexual assault ..Robbery ...Kidnapping 1996....354.....114,156......14,542........16,372........478 1997.....364.......124,500.......14,353.........21,305.........564 1998.....334.......130,903.......14,689.........23,801.........707 1999.....385.......134,271.......14,699.........22,606.........766 2000.....362.......138,708.......16,406.........23,336.........695 2001.....347.......152,283.......17,577.........26,591.........767 2002.....366.......159,548.......18,718.........20,989.........706 2003.....341.......157,280.......18,025.........19,709.........696 2004.....302.......156,849.......19,171.........16,513.........768 2005.....301.......166,507.......18,695.........17,176.........730 2006.....322.......172,441.......19,555.........17,375.........725 2007....282.....176,427......19,781........17,988........730 http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/violent%20crime/victims.html Assaults continue to represent the majority of recorded violent crimes. The overall trend since 1996 has been upward, with an increase of 55 percent between 1996 and 2007. So your trade off is 63 justifiable homicides in exchange for 70,000 violent crimes and the plethora of associated psychological issues and therapy the victims will suffer as a result of the violent crimes. How does that help us to all get along and sit around the camp fire and singing kum by ah? Seems counter productive and more like an attack on victims and potential victims by removing their ability to defend themselves.

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