RE: Paris under attack

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Musicmystery -> RE: Paris under attack (11/16/2015 2:11:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zombiegurlsos quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery http://qz.com/550104/muslims-around-the-world-condemn-terrorism-after-the-paris-attacks/ You do know we are not in disagreement on Muslim views of ISIS.... but hyperbole answers when I correctly posted this: Because other Muslims from other Muslim countries treat each other very un-islamic a great deal of the time.... stop pushen my leg please Musicmystery Fuck off. I shared a relevant link. Don't read it if you don't like how the message interferes with the stories in your head.

NorthernGent -> RE: Paris under attack (11/16/2015 2:15:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ifmaz Do you see the absolute absurdity of guilt by association? Absolutely right, and if some bloke down the street goes out and murders a few people then I'll not be knocking on people's doors begging for forgiveness on the grounds of the murderer being white, or Christian, or supports the same football team as me. The British Council of Muslims have yet again come out to condemn the actions of the terrorists. Personally I think they're making a rod for their own collective back because they're effectively taking a small portion of responsibility for something that has absolutely nothing to do with them. Were I a muslim in this country I'd be saying nothing unless asked and the reply would be: "nothing to do with me; I don't know these people or want to know them".

NorthernGent -> RE: Paris under attack (11/16/2015 2:23:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 ONE OF THE PARIS TERRORISTS WAS A MUSLIM MIGRANT WHO REGISTERED AS A REFUGEE IN GREECE SIX WEEKS AGO also... http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/11/14/paris-terrorist-migrant-registered-refugee-greece/ as a small follow-up to the earlier exchange with northerngent, if anyone is interested---do a quick internet search for global caliphate, or islam and world domination, and you will find plenty to read. Yeah, there will be plenty to read. Lots of people have views on this subject. But, is there anything substantial in there? Is there anything that could refute the assertion that Western countries are the nations who generally invade other people's countries? Of course there isn't. Because the facts are there for everyone to see. If we started listing the invasions undertaken by countries such as England, the United States, and a few more; we'd be here all night listing them. Until you, and a few more, can be honest and fair; this is pointless. It's not even necessary to do historical research. One need only look at the situation in the Muslim/Arab world today, where there are foreign armies killing Arabs/Muslims civilians on a daily basis (Iraq, Occupied Palestine and the victims of Uncle Sam's drone war in Afghanistan/Pakistan are examples that spring to mind). People tend to leave these killings out of consideration because they don't make the news in the West but in the Arab/Muslim world these killings dominate the headlines. Groups like IS feed off this violence, it generates new recruits to their cause and it elicits sympathy for their cause from some sections of the population. Nothing excuses the butchery we see in Paris. Equally nothing excuses the butchery we see on a daily basis in Occupied Palestine, Waziristan, Iraq and other parts of the Arab/Muslim world perpetrated by Western and Israeli armies. We are (rightly) vocal in condemning the violence done to innocent Parisians, but not so vocal about condemning the deaths of just-as-innocent Iraqis, Palestinians or Waziris - most of us are silent about those deaths. Some of us can even find reasons or excuses to justify those deaths ... If we are serious about stopping IS and its horrifying senseless brutality, then we need to ask whether activities of Western armies/Govts in the Arab/Muslim world have contributed to that brutality. Arab/Muslim armies are not occupying land or fighting in the West but Western armies are occupying land and fighting in Arab/Muslim lands . It's obvious that Western governments have contributed. If some foreign nation set up shop in England we'd be more than slightly disappointed and violence would be the inevitable outcome. Personally couldn't care less about IS or whatever they're called, to me it's just more of the same of people fighting over pretty much nothing in the grand scheme of life, nor what's happened in France. The whole Israel/Palestine thing and what Western governments get upto bores the life out of me. 'Time they came up with something new, interesting and productive. It's a shame that those who advocate violence from their arm chairs, some on this thread, can't fight it out on an island somewhere with people who go out and commit murder. That would be useful as people merely sitting having a beer could live their lives in peace. Not the way it works unfortunately.

tj444 -> RE: Paris under attack (11/16/2015 2:52:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: i get that the US is a shit hole How do you like your part of the shit hole? not very.. people with either money or brains can do well, or at least ok (although they could do well/ok pretty much anywhere) but people that arent all that smart or all that lucky (meaning born into money, etc) dont fare very well.. if you are poor and black the odds are stacked against you.. if they hit a rough patch the govt has its ways of fucking them even worse, basically kicking them when they are down.. It shouldnt be that way in this country, imo.. This country does some pretty horrific things to its citizens.. imo.. but you have to take off the rose-colored glasses to see those wrong things first, admit they exist, at least.. here in Houston its pretty visible, to me at least.. I am not saying the worst happened to the Marathon bombers however, not from what i have read about their life here.. they had it better than many Americans, imo..

Musicmystery -> RE: Paris under attack (11/16/2015 2:53:48 PM)
"Why don’t more moderate Muslims denounce extremism? They do; we're just not listening." https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/01/02/why-dont-more-moderate-muslims-denounce-extremism/ "Yes, Islamist extremism is a genuine threat to world peace. But those who lump all Muslims together, and dismiss as meaningless the courageous stand of the moderate majority against extremism, aren’t helping to win that battle. Rather, they’re strengthening extremism by perpetuating a false narrative of perpetual conflict between Islam and the West. That is something which we must fight with all our might."

PeonForHer -> RE: Paris under attack (11/16/2015 3:47:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: Today, apparently as a result of the events in Paris, 7 states here have stopped accepting Syrian refugees.. Oh dear. But is there anywhere - say, much nearer to them - where Syrian refugees can go and get a warm welcome? Why yes, there is! Into the arms of ISIL! If they are so inclined, perhaps.. but they can turn to them no matter where in the world they are (as did the Marathon bombers), and that is the problem.. govts have seen this happen before and dont want their head on a stick by voters/Americans should they "let in" the wrong person.. Supposedly the "mastermind" of the Paris attacks is a Belgian national.. to me there is a parallel to the Marathon bombers (former refugees)... they were given a chance at a good life and for whatever reason they became disillusioned and turned to terrorism.. I dont understand that mentality... yeah, i get that the US is a shit hole where many people lead a less than stellar life but ffs that is better than living in a war-zone in your home country, surely.. And what makes the mid-east refugees more at risk of becoming terrorists than Mexican/S American refugees? cuz I have never heard of any Mexican refugee (fleeing cartel violence, etc) turning into a terrorist before.. Yep. My only point, though, was a lot simpler: that, now, it's crucial that we deal with the right problem and in the right way. The West's strategies regarding the Middle East to date have clearly made things worse and have contributed - or even been the main cause of - ISIS today. It's important that we don't fuck things up still further with kneejerk analyses of the problem (that it's all down to people being Muslims, for instance) and kneejerk strategies to keep ourselves safe (stop the Muslims from getting here, for instance). The time for heroic, root'n, toot'n, brainlessness is past. We actually need to be intelligent about this, now. ISIS represents a 'perfect storm' of evil (yep, I said it - because I really do believe ISIS is evil, if that word has any legitimate application at all): it's fused medieval religious ideology with 21st Century tech and all that offers in terms of creating and implementing a ruthless terrorising machine. We in the west can match that: we have the brawn, we have the brains - but we really do need to draw on both this time round. As far as I can see, most of us, even at the governmental level, haven't even got to stage one of the process, yet - this being 'Understand what exactly you're fighting and what makes that enemy tick'. Just one of the variety of things that gets in the way of such understanding is the fact that our politicians in the west aren't exactly there for understanding the problem and dealing with it efficaciously. They are there for getting into power and remaining there. Thus they'll offer not what they think is the solution, but what they think the average schmo who might vote for them believes to be the solution. And the average schmo is a bollocks-for-brains, frankly.

Politesub53 -> RE: Paris under attack (11/16/2015 3:52:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub It continues to amaze me when people defend one atrocity by pointing out another. Will if they want to justify these Muslim butchers because a nut killed an abortion doctor and call it even Steven then I hope they take a trip to Paris and spout their spiel there... I'm sure it will be accepted with approval. Butch What the feck .... Where has anybody done that here, Butch? Who has 'justified these Muslim butchers', in your view? He is mudslinging to try and justify his stance Peon........ he just doesnt like being called on his bullshit

Politesub53 -> RE: Paris under attack (11/16/2015 4:01:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 First, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, but that is beside the point. If I may point out, terrorists rarely have pulled off attacks this well timed, indicating these guys had to train somewhere and train hard. Second, there had to be some form of communication, again indicating a hell of a lot of planning. And finally, and most importantly, with the gun controls in place in Europe, how the hell did these guys manage to get AK's into the city, deploy and do the damage they did with no one spotting them at all? Of course, there is now a report that Iran warned the coalition countries fighting ISIS that the attack was coming. The training is what gets me. When I was in the army, if we were hitting a structure, we practiced on a mock up of the building we were going to hit. Everything I have read seems to point that the guys hitting the music venue moved in a precise manner (unless the news media is wrong, which it could be) meaning these guys trained on a mock up of the building. Finally, as I said before, this is not the normal procedure for these guys. Truck bombs, suicide bombers in a night club, bus or crowd yes. This attack is a deviation from the norm, which, IMO, having both participated in anti terrorist ops in the military as well as helping "friendly" terrorist plan operations, indicates Europe can expect something much bigger. I hope I'm wrong, but, something just aint right about this. Your wrong, so dont lose any sleep on the issue. The attack on the football stadium could have been worse, except these dumb fucks forgot to get tickets according to accounts. One bomber blew up just himself. You dont need a mock up to go into a concert hall and open fire, if they had used a mock up of the building the casualty list would have been higher. I see you used the term "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter"....not to me, they are all just arseholes and cowards. That includes both the IRA and UVF as I have stated often on these boards.

Politesub53 -> RE: Paris under attack (11/16/2015 4:03:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub When I talk of economic sanctions to force change in the Muslim world, as often happens, some idiot brings up past Christian atrocities... why do it? To me the only possible reason is to compare Christian atrocities to Muslim...now what the hell does that have to do with this thread? If Christians were to blow up Meccas and kill millions... would that make these butchers and the religion that spawns them any less guilty? Butch Get a fucking grip Butch....... Even ISIS are making £billions from selling oil, wtf do you think a few sanctions will achieve.

Politesub53 -> RE: Paris under attack (11/16/2015 4:04:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ifmaz quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Yes... how about you...for them? If I'm not against the entirety of a given religion then I obviously must be for them, right Butch? Sadly, thats how the tossers on here will label you, despite the evidence.

Politesub53 -> RE: Paris under attack (11/16/2015 4:12:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub How is it absurd to want economic pressure to force the Saudi's...and the Pakistani's...and the Egyptians...and the rest of the Muslim world to crack down on the radicals among them... To form a coalition force to fight said radicals instead of using our blood to fight for them. How is it absurd to want the nations of Islam to take responsibility for the killers their religion is breeding...over and over and over. These radicals could not exist without the support of many of the so called...moderate Muslims... if not direct support then their failure to point out the radicals to the proper authorities. What is absurd is your position on THIS tragic thread. Butch Economic pressure on the Saudis ? .......... Your having a fucking laugh, did you not read about the new arms deal with the US ? http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/16/us-saudi-usa-arms-idUSKCN0T51NC20151116 << Sanctions my arse.

Politesub53 -> RE: Paris under attack (11/16/2015 4:21:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zombiegurlsos Russia didn't defeat anyone with their own weapons did they? so back to topic maybe? Did I tell you history isnt your strong point ?

Marc2b -> RE: Paris under attack (11/16/2015 4:27:49 PM)
quote: Gun control is not a related issue, Marc, since the weapons used were military spec AK's. I am quite positive these animals did not go down to the French version of Wal-Mart or Academy sports and buy these weapons off the shelf. If every one of them French folk had been packing this would not have been the tragedy it was. Heck, it might not have been planned at all. That is an argument that could be made. I wouldn't actually make it, but it could be made. So, yeah, it is a related issue.

Marc2b -> RE: Paris under attack (11/16/2015 4:30:12 PM)
quote: You have posted some good points marc...you have mail:) Thank you. And thanks for the welcome back.

Lucylastic -> RE: Paris under attack (11/16/2015 4:31:41 PM)
Mwuah

Marc2b -> RE: Paris under attack (11/16/2015 4:36:51 PM)
quote: "You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." -- (allegedly) Carl Sagan Eliminating religion would mean one has to take personal accountability and responsibility for their actions. It's far easier to attribute life events to some unseen deity. I'm not sure humankind will ever do away with religion, unfortunately. I'd hope finding life on another planet would be the final nail in religion's coffin, proving once and for all Earth is nothing overly special, but I'm sure the religious would declare Earth superior and thus in their deity's better graces. I don't actually expect the majority of humanity to give up religion anytime soon but for every person who does, the world becomes a saner place.

Marc2b -> RE: Paris under attack (11/16/2015 4:42:21 PM)
quote: Given that religion has--for better, worse, or (I'd argue) both--been embedded in human culture for millennia, how do we actually, empirically know what humans would believe without it? I don't care what we believe as long as it doesn't lead to oppression and massacres just because "god" ordains it. I would prefer, however, that humanity based it decision making more on what we know rather than wish fulfillment. quote: Moreover, it seems awfully hard to prove scientifically that humans are equal or have inherent rights. So even if one doesn't root those beliefs in faith, they still strike me as axiomatic than evidence-based. Equality before the law should not be dependent upon equality of ability but out of respect and empathy.

PeonForHer -> RE: Paris under attack (11/16/2015 4:54:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: Gun control is not a related issue, Marc, since the weapons used were military spec AK's. I am quite positive these animals did not go down to the French version of Wal-Mart or Academy sports and buy these weapons off the shelf. If every one of them French folk had been packing this would not have been the tragedy it was. Heck, it might not have been planned at all. That is an argument that could be made. I wouldn't actually make it, but it could be made. So, yeah, it is a related issue. Strewth. I hadn't noticed that JLF had actually said that. It's almost endearing, in a way. [:)]

thompsonx -> RE: Paris under attack (11/16/2015 7:37:12 PM)
ORIGINAL: zombiegurlsos Russia didn't defeat anyone with their own weapons did they? so back to topic maybe? Who gave them all of those tu 34s?

ifmaz -> RE: Paris under attack (11/16/2015 8:06:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: Gun control is not a related issue, Marc, since the weapons used were military spec AK's. I am quite positive these animals did not go down to the French version of Wal-Mart or Academy sports and buy these weapons off the shelf. If every one of them French folk had been packing this would not have been the tragedy it was. Heck, it might not have been planned at all. That is an argument that could be made. I wouldn't actually make it, but it could be made. So, yeah, it is a related issue. Against the terrorists with firearms, quite possibly. Against the terrorists with suicide vests, most definitely not. If you really wanted to stoke the fire you'd question why things like this don't happen in Texas, the alleged gun capital of the world, but I'd advise against doing so.

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