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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 11:43:46 AM   
TieMeInKnottss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Do you feel the need to fight and reclaim Christianity whenever a priest molested a child? Do you think you carry all the guilt of the terrible things the church has done over the centuries (inquisition, holy wars, etc.), whenever some radical Christian attacks an abortion clinic or kills a doctor or a nurse, you think you should go there and stop them and reclaim Christianity?

You know if I was a Muslim I wouldn't identify with the violent ones, but I also wouldn't feel that I need to make a stand, just like most Catholics didn't make a stand when it comes to a ton of scandals in the Catholic church.

How would you like to be labelled as a child abuser just because some priests were? Seems pretty unfair, works for other religions too.


But this is what I am saying EXACTLY (except...somehow you seem to be taking it the opposite way) -- I don't feel a need to reclaim Catholiciism (I don't speak for other Christian religions since I am Catholic) from those who did wrong. They were evil men who took advantage of their position of trust to commit heinous acts...I am trying to get across that...IF you put a definition on the expectations, the requirements, the rules and laws of a religion THEN you can separate those who DO bad and try to cover it up AND those who claim, in doing their evil act, that they are living the religious doctrine.

I can understand them not feeling the need to take a stand BUT...if you don't define what you are and what you believe, what is right and wrong...how do you convince others that you are not the same? If there is no definition of "rat" or "fish" no scientific categorization, how can you claim that the "rat" who says he is a "fish"...is NOT a fish?

Everyone has focused on the pedophila issue in the Catholic religion as the parallel when, really, a better parallel would have been the Crusades (church supported, everyone that took part did so because they were told it was God's will, the religion was used to further political gains/justify poor conduct).. I will say this one last time...I NEVER HEARD THE VATICAN, the POPE or ANY CATHOLIC LEADER COME OUT and SAY.. "Child molestation is the doctrine of the church, it is the duty of all Catholics everywhere to molest those weaker than themselves". People--get OFF THE DAMN "Catholc religion no better than Islam because there was a problem with pedophile,priests. Yes, many times it was COVERED up or condoned by higher ups BUT NO ONE EVER CAME OUT AND SAID THIS IS OUR BELIEF AND NOT ONLY ARE WE RIGHT IN DOING IT, YOU should be excommunicated because you DON'T DO IT..

Good Lord, I am starting to remember why I don't bother posting or responding in this section. Few people are willing to actually READ and ANSWER a question without going off on an unrelated tangent (and now I have gone off my own thread topic because I am trying to argue the invalid argument)

< Message edited by TieMeInKnottss -- 12/8/2015 11:48:53 AM >

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 11:52:06 AM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TieMeInKnottss

It hit me...do those who claim that Islam is peaceful and has been hijacked by the ultra-conservative have a responsibility to take back their religion from those that they claim have hijacked it?


It's funny, we were just talking about this. The day after the San Bernadino attacks, one of the local Muslim leaders held a press conference where he said, "we're victims of this shooting too" which was followed up with essentially - You're all wrong to think we believe this, we don't believe this, so you need to stop thinking we believe this.

So, the gist of the entire press conference was claiming victimhood (in the wake of 14 people dying) and telling non-Muslims that we're wrong. Not once did he call out his own community to not tolerate those that would do this and to speakout when they see that something is going in that direction. (The San Bernardino attack once again confirmed that someone always knows something isn't right)

This is compounded by the fact that they tend to live insular little groups and don't participate in their general community. It makes them unknown to the people that they want to convince that they don't behave or believe as the extremists do.

One of the best examples that I have seen: There's a group of mothers that live in one of the worst neighborhoods in Chicago. After a particular wave of violence, they banded together and started patrolling their two block neighborhood. They set up an EZ Up, put out a BBQ and walk around their neighborhood. It essentially puts out the message "We live here and what you're doing is not okay". The crime rate in that neighborhood dropped.




< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 12/8/2015 11:54:00 AM >

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 12:00:09 PM   
LadyConstanze


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Status: offline 		Actually I mentioned the holy wars, aka crusades but I don't get why you are so in denial about the child abuse, it happened in your church..

Apparently you really really can't get why it is OK for you to not go out and protest against all those things I mentioned done in the name of Christianity but you expect Muslims to do that? Don't you think you are being a hypocrite here?

Apparently you aren't aware that there are as many different sects of Muslims as there are of Christians. I would actually HOPE that you inform yourself, why should your own brand of man in the sky be better than another one? For me as an atheist it's all BS, but apparently you believe that Muslims have to do something you yourself aren't willing to do, and then you complain people don't understand you because they aren't buying into your hypocritical BS and refuse to say what you want them to say.

You don't want to go out and protest, you aren't responsible for the radical X-tians who bomb abortion clinics, because they might not be the same sect as you are, but all Muslims should do something you yourself don't see a need to do. That's more than weird.

But yeah, if you want to be told that you are right and everybody who calls you on your BS is wrong, maybe you shouldn't discuss.

Btw the IRA was a famous Catholic terrorist group, funny, I don't recall that people asked that they should be excommunicated... Wouldn't it have been your duty to call for that, you know like you think the peaceful Muslims should, or is it only that others have to do things and you got the get out of jail free card?

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 12:02:10 PM   
TieMeInKnottss


Posts: 1944
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Status: offline 		Oside you are my hero!!! Finally, someone that understands my point.

I understand why people are not remaining in their home countries and fighting (that has been a big argument on refugees...if they don't like what is happening in their countries, they should stand up and fight back). I understand seeking safety and not wanting your kids in the midst. What I cannot understand is why those Muslims already in other countries (those still in Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran... Cannot because they would be labeled apostates) don't group together and basically do a media blitz. "We are Muslim. If you want to use our name, claim to do stuff in our name...here are the standards". Granted, I would assume that, like Martin Luther, they would have to adopt a new name and break away from those who claim to be "Muslim" who have failed to follow the accepted teachings. Yeah..it sucks (NOT unlike the Balto. Colts taking off for Indy AND being allowed to keep OUR name...but I digress ) but I think that the name has been permanently sullied anyway

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 12:02:34 PM   
DaddySatyr


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I'll dive in ...

I was raised a Traditional Catholic ... a seda vacantist . We didn't follow the Vatican because we believed that Vatican II was heresy.

I certainly "fell away" and I am no longer a practicing Catholic, but I am a Christian and an American.

I am anti-infanticide but I've never bombed or shot up an abortion clinic. Because I'm an American, if I had information about anyone who had done something illegal to an abortion clinic, I would report it.

If "moderate (personally, I don't think there's any such thing) muslims" would open their mouths ... shun the evil-doers instead of condoning the evil behavior by their silence, the evil-doers would find some other banner to fly.

I think this may be what TieMe is trying to get to (sort of).



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 12/8/2015 12:05:11 PM >

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 12:08:58 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr




If "moderate (personally, I don't think there's any such thing) muslims" would open their mouths ... shun the evil-doers instead of condoning the evil behavior by their silence, the evil-doers would find some other banner to fly.




I think the bottom line is that if you don't like how your group is perceived, but never do anything to dispel those perceptions - then you don't get to complain. And that's not just a religious thing.

So, Michael nailed it.

< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 12/8/2015 12:10:39 PM >

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 12:12:25 PM   
LadyConstanze


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Status: offline 		Funny, all the Muslims I know are moderate, usually I don't even know they are Muslims until I get to know them better because religion is just not something that matters and they don't wear a badge. They've been born into a religion and kinda stick with it as it happened with most of us that we are just following what we were brought up as kids, I consider myself an atheist but yeah, I had a Catholic baptism and the rest of the mumbo-jumbo rites before I decided I'm old enough to make up my own mind.

Those moderate Muslims (you don't believe exist - funny) would call the police if they'd notice any crime, they consider themselves citizens...

Why should one religion be better than another? For me all religions are pretty much BS as they are all make believe and none of them has any proof apart from some books written by people, absurd to say "Oh if they didn't get the indoctrination from the Vatican, they are all bad bad bad..."

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 12:29:23 PM   
JVoV


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Status: offline 		I'm just curious if the average Joe Muslim living in Hotasfuckistan really gives a shit about what random white women in Murica think of their religious beliefs and traditions.

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 12:31:27 PM   
bossman777


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Funny, all the Muslims I know are moderate, usually I don't even know they are Muslims until I get to know them better


Funny, that's exactly what all the friends and co-workers said of the muslim couple before the couple tried to kill them (and others). "They were such a calm, happy couple."

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 12:35:56 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bossman777


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Funny, all the Muslims I know are moderate, usually I don't even know they are Muslims until I get to know them better


Funny, that's exactly what all the friends and co-workers said of the muslim couple before the couple tried to kill them (and others). "They were such a calm, happy couple."


Except the neighbor that was afraid of being called racist for reporting his suspicions.

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 12:36:16 PM   
TieMeInKnottss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Actually I mentioned the holy wars, aka crusades but I don't get why you are so in denial about the child abuse, it happened in your church..

Apparently you really really can't get why it is OK for you to not go out and protest against all those things I mentioned done in the name of Christianity but you expect Muslims to do that? Don't you think you are being a hypocrite here?

Apparently you aren't aware that there are as many different sects of Muslims as there are of Christians. I would actually HOPE that you inform yourself, why should your own brand of man in the sky be better than another one? For me as an atheist it's all BS, but apparently you believe that Muslims have to do something you yourself aren't willing to do, and then you complain people don't understand you because they aren't buying into your hypocritical BS and refuse to say what you want them to say.

You don't want to go out and protest, you aren't responsible for the radical X-tians who bomb abortion clinics, because they might not be the same sect as you are, but all Muslims should do something you yourself don't see a need to do. That's more than weird.

But yeah, if you want to be told that you are right and everybody who calls you on your BS is wrong, maybe you shouldn't discuss.

Btw the IRA was a famous Catholic terrorist group, funny, I don't recall that people asked that they should be excommunicated... Wouldn't it have been your duty to call for that, you know like you think the peaceful Muslims should, or is it only that others have to do things and you got the get out of jail free card?


Actually, many IRA members were excommunicated; however, this is a good point because the IRA groups were really political and just adopted the name "Catholic" because the members lived in the Catholic sections of Ireland (they were Catholic but they were not claiming that what they were doing was because it was religious doctrine...they wanted to separate Ireland from England and one of their reasons was that Irish were Carholic and English were not). Just like the current troublemakers, they misappropriated a name.

I am not denying the problems of the Catholic Church...12 yrs in the Catholic schools and every parish I have ever belonged to had at least one priest accused of molestation (use the word "accused" because that is all I know of and, like they say on "Cops"...) I don't feel a need to defend them because they did wrong, the church did wrong in not acknowledging and protecting the victims and in how they moved priests around to hide it, I won't claim that pedophilia is a required practice of the faithful nor have I ever seen it written into any religious doctrine so I do not need to disassociate myself. The reason I don't want to argue that topic is because it is not what the discussion topic was...I don't want to argue whether the Chicago Cubs are truly cursed, whether Tom Brady was innocent or if there was a 2nd shooter on the grassy knoll right now, not because I believe they are wrong but because they are not the topic of this specific conversation. Start a question thread on those and I may post an answer or argument..

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 12:40:28 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
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Status: offline 		These people do not operate in a vacuum and need massive support for operating expenses...where does it come from?

If there was a Christian sect in my hometown cutting off the heads of innocents and killing and maiming in the name of my religion I would speak up and if i had to... do more than just talk.

If a religious sect in my country tried to force me from my home I would fight... yes i would do my best to get my family to safety but i would fight for my home.

Now why would I not do any of the above... when I agreed with the ideology on some level.

It is time for the majority of Muslims rise up and purge the terrorists from their ranks... it is the only way this can be done. Christians, atheists, other religious countries and their military's can not do it alone.

Radicalism cannot survive surrounded and living among a true peace loving people determined to purge them from their societies.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/8/2015 12:41:51 PM >

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 12:43:24 PM   
TieMeInKnottss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

I'm just curious if the average Joe Muslim living in Hotasfuckistan really gives a shit about what random white women in Murica think of their religious beliefs and traditions.


LOL...they probably don't but I am sick in bed and need something to occupy myself. Seriously, I think most don't but I DO think many are upset by the impact it has on them and their families. I understand what they go through as far as the feeling of dread they get when they hear the words "mass shooting" and how they wait on edge to hear if the perpetrator was a Muslim because they know what will happen if it turns out to be the case.

I actually worked in our college International Student Office for 4 yrs. Most were Middle Eastern men and Muslims... I had a lot of really good friends in that group. I honestly have been trying to locate a few because I am worried about them (3 were Syrian...the others were Palestinian, Egyptian, Iranian and my closest was Jordanian). I keep in contact with one guy through FB (he is Morrocan) but he has lost touch with the others too

< Message edited by TieMeInKnottss -- 12/8/2015 12:48:13 PM >

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 12:46:32 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

After the massacre, the elder Farook tried to distance himself from his son, telling reporters, “His views were conservative. My views were liberal.”


He knew his son was radical and did nothing.

FYI: The father has been added to the FBI watch list.

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 12:48:27 PM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		For me it happens within a religion, actually by the leaders of that religion, so it's fair to compare them to the mullah's....

I lived in Ireland for quite a long time, I went to Trinity, the IRA always claimed to fight for the rights of Catholics, it was their main main argument and how they managed to collect money from US sponsors.

Personally I do not know a single name of a member of the IRA who was excommunicated and tried to google, couldn't find anything, if you know of any, please do share.

And while to a certain degree, I was sympathetic to the plight of the Irish in NI (Belfast for a while was not a great place, there was a massive injustice regarding work), I don't believe that terrorism is ever the answer.

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 1:06:58 PM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: kdsub

These people do not operate in a vacuum and need massive support for operating expenses...where does it come from?

If there was a Christian sect in my hometown cutting off the heads of innocents and killing and maiming in the name of my religion I would speak up and if i had to... do more than just talk.

If a religious sect in my country tried to force me from my home I would fight... yes i would do my best to get my family to safety but i would fight for my home.

Now why would I not do any of the above... when I agreed with the ideology on some level.

It is time for the majority of Muslims rise up and purge the terrorists from their ranks... it is the only way this can be done. Christians, atheists, other religious countries and their military's can not do it alone.

Radicalism cannot survive surrounded and living among a true peace loving people determined to purge them from their societies.

You live in missouri and claim to know about the happenings in furgistan yet refuse to even read the doj report. What have you done about the thugs in uniform and the city council and judge who worked in consort with them?

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 12/8/2015 1:07:39 PM >

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 1:07:49 PM   
TieMeInKnottss


Posts: 1944
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Status: offline 		@ LadyC
Time Magazine 1939
"recent months the Irish Republican Army has terrorized England with many a bombing. Last week the Roman Catholic hierarchy of England and Wales unlimbered its biggest gun against the I.R. A.—threat of excommunication. In a statement read in all Catholic churches in Britain, the hierarchy declared: "Among the causes of the present unrest are workings of certain secret societies. The church sternly condemns all societies which plot against the church or state. They are guilty of crime against human society. Members of such secret societies incur excommunication.""

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 1:08:57 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: TieMeInKnottss

Oside you are my hero!!! Finally, someone that understands my point.

We all get your point that it is the islamist and you hate them and all that jingoistic shit.

I understand why people are not remaining in their home countries and fighting (that has been a big argument on refugees...if they don't like what is happening in their countries, they should stand up and fight back).

What are they going to fight back with and who exactly do they fight? Which one of the fuckwads involved in that lashup are the "good guys" Many people just want to live their lives and be left alone. Since they are living in a war zone they have chosen to leave rather than have their families hurt.


I understand seeking safety and not wanting your kids in the midst. What I cannot understand is why those Muslims already in other countries (those still in Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran... Cannot because they would be labeled apostates) don't group together and basically do a media blitz.

Why didn't you and your catholic non pedophile friends do the same when priest get busted?



"We are Muslim. If you want to use our name, claim to do stuff in our name...here are the standards". Granted, I would assume that, like Martin Luther, they would have to adopt a new name and break away from those who claim to be "Muslim" who have failed to follow the accepted teachings.

Are you willing to change from calling yourself a catholic and perhaps changing your name to "I hate pedos" and creating a new church?




Yeah..it sucks (NOT unlike the Balto. Colts taking off for Indy AND being allowed to keep OUR name...but I digress ) but I think that the name has been permanently sullied anyway

By that logic so has christianity and catholicism.

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 1:11:11 PM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TieMeInKnottss

Oside you are my hero!!! Finally, someone that understands my point.

I understand why people are not remaining in their home countries and fighting (that has been a big argument on refugees...if they don't like what is happening in their countries, they should stand up and fight back). I understand seeking safety and not wanting your kids in the midst. What I cannot understand is why those Muslims already in other countries (those still in Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran... Cannot because they would be labeled apostates) don't group together and basically do a media blitz. "We are Muslim. If you want to use our name, claim to do stuff in our name...here are the standards". Granted, I would assume that, like Martin Luther, they would have to adopt a new name and break away from those who claim to be "Muslim" who have failed to follow the accepted teachings. Yeah..it sucks (NOT unlike the Balto. Colts taking off for Indy AND being allowed to keep OUR name...but I digress ) but I think that the name has been permanently sullied anyway



You point being damming Muslims?

You said you have children, right, so if you had children and they are in danger of getting killed and raped, would you run and try to get them somewhere where they can try to grow up without that danger or would you stay and risk their lives?



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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 1:13:55 PM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr




If "moderate (personally, I don't think there's any such thing) muslims" would open their mouths ... shun the evil-doers instead of condoning the evil behavior by their silence, the evil-doers would find some other banner to fly.




I think the bottom line is that if you don't like how your group is perceived, but never do anything to dispel those perceptions - then you don't get to complain. And that's not just a religious thing.

So, Michael nailed it.



Why on earth should they HAVE to do it? So that some bigots feel great about themselves? Seriously, anybody who identifies as Christian then should be out on the streets and loudly distance him and herself from everything an extremist Christian does.

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