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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/10/2015 12:06:29 AM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

I believe KKK success in recruiting members lies more on white supremacy, and anti-immigration issues. It didn't seem like they presented it as a Protestant's religious duty to eradicate non-white people.




They view it as thier duty to eradicate anyone that doesn't believe what they believe. You can "believe" whatever you want, but the reality is that you know almost zilch about living in the US. You have never interacted with anyone from KKK or someone that sympathizes with them. So, arguing with those of us that have that first hand knowledge is moot.


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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/10/2015 2:59:58 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Still sticking with your "cool teen sites" link huh. Why am I not surprised?

Was there some mistatement in the spelling out of the law?


It's one of the main reasons I usually skip over your posts.

The reason you skip over my posts is because you *****Ah ah! That's not allowed. Be nice or be moderated!*****

But it is fun to slap you around once in a while.

The only thing you have ever slapped arround *****Ah ah! That's not allowed. Be nice or be moderated!*****


oh come on tommy boy, you used to be able to do better than this.

< Message edited by M38284 -- 12/10/2015 1:46:35 PM >


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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/10/2015 3:04:06 AM   
Staleek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek
So ok. Let's take your... uhm... "questionaire" at face value. From the look of the thing there is an inherent patriarchy in the Islamic faith and women are oppressed. If true, how do you explain the existence of this person?

Why bring up megawati? How about bringing up Bhutto, Female PM of Pakistan who got assassinated for being a woman?




Because it doesn't have anything to do with the point I actually made, the point you quoted, and the point which appeared to go so far over your head it might as well have been a predator drone.

Premise: The Islamic faith is pre-desposed towards patriarchy and the oppression of women.

Reality: Women have lead 4 of the 5 most populus Islamic nations, including women who have won democratic elections where literally millions of Muslim men have gone out to vote for these women to lead them and their country.

I can't present the argument any more simply than that!

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/10/2015 3:08:55 AM   
Staleek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Most of the Muslims down here are quite religious.


That would be appear to be a reassuring sign rather than a worrying one. As the MI5 report says,

" ... there is little connection between religious piety and terrorism among Muslims A "restricted" report of hundreds of case studies by the domestic counter-intelligence agency MI5 found that •

[f]ar from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation.[29]•"

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1


It's really funny because whenever terrorist are caught, they are often the pious type, at least in my region, it would be someone who prays 5 times a day, and refrain from alcohol and drugs, does not smoke etc, totally perfect and educated too, University educated. All the self-radicalized ones caught are often in this demographic, infact often is inaccurate. Let's put it this way, in my region, they are tapping onto self-radicalised individuals like crazy and making loads of arrests. Our laws can apprehend them without trial and put them in jail forever. And 100% of the time. These guys are web savvy and able to make contact with terrorists groups, hold high jobs and good education.


This is factually inaccurate; in other words you are lying.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_to_Win#Ch._10:_The_Demographic_Profile_of_Suicide_Terrorists

quote:

"In general, suicide attackers are rarely socially isolated, clinically insane, or economically destitute individuals, but are most often educated, socially integrated, and highly capable people who could be expected to have a good future" (200). Pape discusses problems of data-gathering (201–02). He establishes 462 individuals in his "universe" of suicide terrorists available for analytical purposes (203). Hezbollah suicide bombers in the period 1982–1986 were 71% Communist/Socialist, 21% Islamist, 8% Christian (204–07). In general, suicide terrorists are in their early 20s (207–08). Females are fewer in Islamist groups: "Islamist fundamentalism may actually reduce the number of suicide terrorists by discouraging certain categories of individuals" (208–09). Female suicide terrorists tend to be older than male (209–10). There is no documented mental illness in any case of suicide terrorism, though there are 16 cases of personal trauma (e.g., the loss of a loved one) (210–11). Arab suicide terrorists are in general better educated than average and are from the working or middle classes (211–16). "[T]hey resemble the kind of politically conscious individuals who might join a grassroots movement more than they do wayward adolescents or religious fanatics" (216).


Also watch this lecture from the time I've linked:

https://youtu.be/iJl2-AdLt48?t=440

"Religious education is a negative predictor of being involved in the Jihad"

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/10/2015 3:09:05 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TieMeInKnottss

Usually stay out of here because, while I am an avid follower of current events and world politics, I hate arguing.

I was thinking and started to wonder about something. while I understand why people are fleeing the Mideast and don't agree with the "everyone stand up and fight instead of running away" thing, It hit me...do those who claim that Islam is peaceful and has been hijacked by the ultra-conservative have a responsibility to take back their religion from those that they claim have hijacked it?

I am Catholic. Honestly, I believe in having a religious hierarchy (which I know Islam...like most Christian religions does not have). You have one "ruling body" that makes the rules and excommunicates those who will not follow them...they then go off and make their own religion and don't "sully" us. (Yeah...lots to be said about the various issues and teachings in Catholicism...not going there right now )

Why don't the "peaceful" Muslims unite and take back their religion? I am not talking about politics--theocracies and Islamic nations--there is a HUGE difference in government/rulers and the religions they claim to represent. Forget the ISIL and the Taliban (to me those would be the guys that the religious hierarchy would excommunicate). If true Muslims decided to band together and say " ok" here is our leader and what he says goes (hey...we might not agree with the pope but I agree he has the right to make the decisions), then it would separate the "hijackers" from the truly devout and would remove any legitimacy.

So...why don't the peaceful Muslims get together and say "our name, our rules, get the f-- out. call yourself whatever you want but you are no longer 'Muslims". Hey, for Catholics in medieval times, taking away the name often completely destroyed the governments of those who did not follow what the church said.


I've read the entire post so far and there are some good answers and good links especially from LC and Staleek.

In Syria there are something like a thousand armed opposition groups fighting right now. Only four of those groups are allies of IS but not all are fighting IS and not all those fighting IS consider the West to be allies. The West portray these battles as black and white..."good fighting evil" but I guess it depends on who's side you're on as to who is good and who is evil. Most of us are confused about what's happening in Syria and that includes the Muslims living amongst us.

Many of these fraction rebel fighters are just as cruel as IS and that includes rebels who align themselves with the West. When we all saw the pictures of a 100 Syrians lined up and executed (49 of them children) our newspapers told us it was IS when in fact it was Shabbiha (Christian militants) that committed these murders. The Free Syrian Army (FSA) who are mostly defectors from the Syrian military are responsible for the ethnic cleansing of over 2 million Christians across Syria and yet we hardly hear a whisper about them.

Syria has imploded, not only by the Sunni's but by the Shi'ite's, the Kurds the Sufi's and the Christians and every one of those groups have dozens of different ethnic groups fighting for their own version of religion. Whole sections of Syria are devastated, not just by IS but we, the West have polarized IS to be the only real perpetrators. Truth is, many of these groups causing mass atrocities are nothing more than mafia style organizations and there's plenty of them.

Our intervention in Syria will merely tilt the scales towards other rebels (mafia groups) and create yet more sectarian violence. How the hell do we separate the wheat from the radical chaff? Who are the good guys? who are the evil guys?

This has to be the most confusing civil war we have ever seen and we, the West, have only been privy to a very small portion of this story.



< Message edited by MariaB -- 12/10/2015 3:10:47 AM >


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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/10/2015 3:43:38 AM   
Staleek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

This has to be the most confusing civil war we have ever seen and we, the West, have only been privy to a very small portion of this story.



Yep. I keep myself as well informed as possible, but this situation has my head spinning. Here is a comprehensive list of the factions involved in the Syrian conflict right now.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aI3yAmNGW1vLpJCOrhiVLqpUUIX9PG1RNsCqJGGfhxI/edit?pli=1

110 pages. Each page listing numerous players. I should point out that not all of these groups are actually fighting, but they're all players in the social/political situation of Syria, and it shows what a convoluted mess this is. Wikipedia, which deals with mostly those fighting, is less comprehensive...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_groups_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War

But still lists an impressive number of factions. There are two conclusions I draw from this;

1. The situation in Syria is not going to be resolved by bombing, invading, or any military adventure. Any attempt to sort the situation out this way is doomed to failure and it is impossible to discern friend from foe.

2. Refugees fleeing from the region are running for their lives and if we are half as civilized as we pretend to be we should do what we can to help them escape, even if we do face a (very minimal) risk to ourselves by doing so.

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/10/2015 4:32:21 AM   
thompsonx


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Can two Muslims get married under Civil law?

No. The Women's Charter (Chapter 353) does not allow for it.
http://www.ifaq.gov.sg/ROMM/apps/fcd_faqmain.aspx#FAQ_70450

While the women's charter is law in singapore so also is the administration of muslim law act. Both are the law of the state of singapore.
Perhaps you might tell us who appoints the members of the administration of muslim law act? Could it be the "nazi dictator" of singapore for whom you have expressed your admiration?

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/10/2015 7:00:21 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek

Yep. I keep myself as well informed as possible, but this situation has my head spinning. Here is a comprehensive list of the factions involved in the Syrian conflict right now.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aI3yAmNGW1vLpJCOrhiVLqpUUIX9PG1RNsCqJGGfhxI/edit?pli=1

110 pages. Each page listing numerous players. I should point out that not all of these groups are actually fighting, but they're all players in the social/political situation of Syria, and it shows what a convoluted mess this is. Wikipedia, which deals with mostly those fighting, is less comprehensive...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_groups_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War

But still lists an impressive number of factions. There are two conclusions I draw from this;

1. The situation in Syria is not going to be resolved by bombing, invading, or any military adventure. Any attempt to sort the situation out this way is doomed to failure and it is impossible to discern friend from foe.

2. Refugees fleeing from the region are running for their lives and if we are half as civilized as we pretend to be we should do what we can to help them escape, even if we do face a (very minimal) risk to ourselves by doing so.


We have to be interested enough to inform ourselves. Understanding is the thing that creates balanced opinions. Only reading the bits we are interested in could potentially radicalise us against all Muslims, as is the case with people like Trump and Greta and people like them frighten me a lot more than Muslims ever could!.




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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/10/2015 7:04:43 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Perhaps you might tell us who appoints the members of the administration of muslim law act? Could it be the "nazi dictator" of singapore for whom you have expressed your admiration?

Our "nazi dictator" has to allow sharia court to strive to make the Muslims happy so they don't cause trouble for us and interfere with the country's progress.

Imagine if we refuse, and they spend the rest of their life, fighting with us, disgruntled to keep insisting on wanting their sharia marriages. We'd just be fighting an endless battle, disruption to peace, probably they will turn militant.

If you notice in that website, we also give them the privileges of polygamy marriages as it's prescribe by their religion.

How we handle things are different, the government feels it's no big deal to let them enjoy some of their religious practices even if it's not compatible with modern society, as it's only within their Islamic community. I think our "nazi dictator" has always seen the big picture, rather than the small picture. And alot of his reasons for allowing anything or disallowing anything are seriously for solid practical reasons.

I'm disgusted by their practices but I am still rational enough to see why this is necessary. We do have two huge muslim nations surrounding us and we need to make our local muslims happy to keep the peace.



< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/10/2015 7:10:25 AM >

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/10/2015 7:16:18 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek
This is factually inaccurate; in other words you are lying.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_to_Win#Ch._10:_The_Demographic_Profile_of_Suicide_Terrorists

I said this was the experience in my region and you quote something from wikipedia that is more leaning towards suicide terrorists that have done it in the west and middle east.

On top of that, there has never been a suicide terrorist in Singapore. All our self-radicalised terrorists were gonna plant hidden bombs and escape, but not actually strap it onto themselves. Not all terrorists are suicide terrorists ya know.

And no matter how ya wanna defend this. Every country in the world has Muslim terrorists. It's an epidemic with that religion. What is it about that religion that makes it soooo easy for people use it's religious text to convince people of their cause.

From China, to India, to Europe to US.

But few countries have buddhists terrorists, or christian terrorists. Hell, there is one christian terrorist group, "The Lord's Resistence Army" in Africa, but then they got like 10 over more Muslim terrorists group there.

One Christian terrorism group in the whole world.

And to be honest, I think it's crazy that Thailand, Philippines and China have Muslim terrorists!





< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/10/2015 7:22:14 AM >

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/10/2015 7:26:47 AM   
Staleek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek
This is factually inaccurate; in other words you are lying.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_to_Win#Ch._10:_The_Demographic_Profile_of_Suicide_Terrorists

I said this was the experience in my region and you quote something from wikipedia that is more leaning towards suicide terrorists that have done it in the west and middle east.

On top of that, there has never been a suicide terrorist in Singapore. All our self-radicalised terrorists were gonna plant hidden bombs and escape, but not actually strap it onto themselves. Not all terrorists are suicide terrorists ya know.

And no matter how ya wanna defend this. Every country in the world has Muslim terrorists. It's an epidemic with that religion. What is it about that religion that makes it soooo easy for people use it's religious text to convince people of their cause.

From China, to India, to Europe to US.

But few countries have buddhists terrorists, or christian terrorists. Hell, there is one christian terrorist group, "The Lord's Resistence Army" in Africa, but then they got like 10 over more Muslim terrorists group there.

One Christian terrorism group in the whole world.

And to be honest, I think it's crazy that Thailand, Philippines and China have Muslim terrorists!




You really don't bother with any facts or data that in any way don't conform to your worldview, do you? If there is anything out there which suggests your ideas may be wrong you'll somehow try to twist it in such a way that it no longer matters, or try to ignore it.

Ironically it's an extremely religious mindset you have - your beliefs weigh more heavily than objective fact.

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/10/2015 7:29:42 AM   
Greta75


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Same can be said for you. I live in a country where we have sharia laws. And I'm closer to Muslims than you are. They are surrounding me. So My experiences are real to me.

Muslims isn't something I read from the news or wikipedia. It's people I deal with and interact with daily.

Why don't you experience living in a country with sharia laws and experience it first hand yourself on what that holy book of theirs advocate, and then make a judgement from there.

Not from third hand wikipedia.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/10/2015 7:31:30 AM >

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/10/2015 7:50:57 AM   
Greta75


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And there is one big point that supporters of Islam from the west is missing out on.

Most Western civilisation believe in freedom of religion.

Ask any of your peaceful pious Muslim, which Muslim in which Muslim country is allowed to convert out of Islam without the death penalty? Even the most peaceful Muslim nation, that is not possible.

Why are we supporting a religion who's main pillar is imprisoning humans in Islam?

To me, to stop acknowledging Islam as the Religion of Peace, is the first step from freeing people enslaved in Islam and giving them their freedom to choose.

This means that, if we openly acknowledge Islam is bad, and people still want to choose to be with Islam, that is okay. I mean, people still choose to be Nazi, KKK, Satanism, whatever, that's okay, as long as we give them accurate information of what they are getting themselves into and we give them the choice.

Currently, all the Muslims that are unfortunate to be living in their home countries, do not have this luxury of choice.

If you believe in Freedom in Religion, you shouldn't be supporting Islam.

Or just read wiki as some of you love so much, they detailedly list the countries and how they prosecute Muslims who wants to convert out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/10/2015 8:09:54 AM >

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/10/2015 8:17:12 AM   
Staleek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

Same can be said for you. I live in a country where we have sharia laws. And I'm closer to Muslims than you are. They are surrounding me. So My experiences are real to me.


If true you wouldn't talk quite so much bollocks about Muslims. You're not talking from a position of experience quite clearly, you're talking from the position of someone who has seen to much anti-Islamic political rhetoric and has swallowed it all. Your rants don't have any basis in fact or reality and when facts are presented you do this;

quote:


Muslims isn't something I read from the news or wikipedia. It's people I deal with and interact with daily.

Why don't you experience living in a country with sharia laws and experience it first hand yourself on what that holy book of theirs advocate, and then make a judgement from there.

Not from third hand wikipedia.


Let's just take this at face value. Let's assume you're telling the truth, that you deal with Muslims and interact with them every day. I didn't just post wikipedia articles, I posted a whole lot more, as did others. Let's be charitable and assume you're telling the truth, and that this is your experience of Muslims.

This conflicts very starkly with mine. Of course I had a university education where my exposure to Muslims were with highly educated varieties, and that may differ wildly from someone who lives in a trailer park, but nonetheless my experience is different.

Someone else who is working with refugees will have a different experience.

And someone else who works with relief efforts in Bangladeshi flood zones will have a different experience from all of us.

Then again a human resources officer who has relocated to Indonesia and works for a bank will have yet a different experience of Muslims.

...

So the question is, who has the most accurate picture of Islamic people?

In order to determine that we gather data, the more data the better, and get a better and more accurate view.

This process is sometimes referred to as "science". What you are doing, taking your own experiences and then judging 1.8 billion people by them, is often referred to as "bigotry". You're simply ignoring facts, ignoring data, and saying "well I live around Muslims! Maybe I've spoken to about 30 of them! I don't read things!", and think that makes your argument stronger somehow. It doesn't.

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/10/2015 8:31:52 AM   
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FR:

any religion or political group that becomes too powerful and dissident to the old world monied aristocracy has to be taken out. yesterday it was the jews, today its the muslims, tomorrow it will be you :)

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/10/2015 9:45:18 AM   
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I couldn't find a copy with English subtitles, but you won't need them. Video is 8 minutes long. Watch to the end.

http://sendvid.com/m2sqmeog

K.

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/10/2015 2:40:04 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek

Same can be said for you. I live in a country where we have sharia laws. And I'm closer to Muslims than you are. They are surrounding me. So My experiences are real to me.


If true you wouldn't talk quite so much bollocks about Muslims. You're not talking from a position of experience quite clearly, you're talking from the position of someone who has seen to much anti-Islamic political rhetoric and has swallowed it all. Your rants don't have any basis in fact or reality and when facts are presented you do this;
Ask any of your "peaceful" muslim brothers what they think about apostasy and whether it is allowed in Islam. Enough said. I've never heard a Muslim person say they are okay with a Muslim person converting out of Islam despite being moderate. And the fact that all Muslim countries prosecute Muslims who do says alot to me about that religion.


quote:

This conflicts very starkly with mine. Of course I had a university education where my exposure to Muslims were with highly educated varieties, and that may differ wildly from someone who lives in a trailer park, but nonetheless my experience is different.

I've just said in my previous post the self-radicalised muslims are often the highly educated kind. Hello! California Muslim Dude was educated! He was born in the US. He should have known better! Education doesn't stop religious extremism.

quote:

Then again a human resources officer who has relocated to Indonesia and works for a bank will have yet a different experience of Muslims.

As I've always said and proven, Muslims in Muslim countries are not Muslims by choice. So they may be simply good people who will not choose Islam IF they had a choice, BUT were forced into the religion, and what is happening is that, these people are experiencing these people. Both Bangladesh and Indonesia you mentioned, have prosecute Muslims that wants to convert out.

Why are we supporting this madness of a religion!



< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/10/2015 2:44:15 PM >

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/15/2015 9:13:40 AM   
LadyPact


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<fast reply>

And what have we asked of our own?

It's no different. Why didn't those straight people fight against laws when CO was the state of hate? Why didn't whites fight for blacks? Why didn't males fight for abused females?

The answer is simple. Because it is so much easier to sit back in a chair and ask why it is that other people don't fight.

It is the epitome of hypocrisy to condemn those who do not take to the streets when you are not willing to do so, yourself.


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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/16/2015 8:35:17 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Greta75

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Perhaps you might tell us who appoints the members of the administration of muslim law act? Could it be the "nazi dictator" of singapore for whom you have expressed your admiration?

Our "nazi dictator" has to allow sharia court to strive to make the Muslims happy so they don't cause trouble for us and interfere with the country's progress.

Is that code for voting his punk ass out of offce?

Imagine if we refuse, and they spend the rest of their life, fighting with us, disgruntled to keep insisting on wanting their sharia marriages. We'd just be fighting an endless battle, disruption to peace, probably they will turn militant.

Like blacks did in the usa when they were denied their human rights

If you notice in that website, we also give them the privileges of polygamy marriages as it's prescribe by their religion.

How we handle things are different, the government feels it's no big deal to let them enjoy some of their religious practices even if it's not compatible with modern society,

That would be your ignorant unsubstantiated opinion devoid of any rational thought.

as it's only within their Islamic community. I think our "nazi dictator" has always seen the big picture, rather than the small picture. And alot of his reasons for allowing anything or disallowing anything are seriously for solid practical reasons.

Sounds like "pay day" diplomacy

I'm disgusted by their practices

Tough shit!

but I am still rational

Only in your tiny little head and no where else.


enough to see why this is necessary. We do have two huge muslim nations surrounding us and we need to make our local muslims happy to keep the peace.

So If you chuck them out your neighbors will fuck you up???




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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/16/2015 8:51:22 AM   
Staleek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

Ask any of your "peaceful" muslim brothers what they think about apostasy and whether it is allowed in Islam. Enough said. I've never heard a Muslim person say they are okay with a Muslim person converting out of Islam despite being moderate.


I've never heard an atheist specifically deny that he eats only carrots, I've never heard a Buddhist say that he is not the reincarnation of Elvis, I have never heard a Christian denounce the teachings of Mr Albert Weskot at number 23 Moby Dick Terrace, Brentford, England, I have never heard a Hindu say that tiger meat is bad for you...

I must therefore conclude these things are true!

I think your tinfoil hat is wedged on too tight.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

And the fact that all Muslim countries prosecute Muslims who do says alot to me about that religion.


Tell me lies tell me sweet little lies.

Oh no no you can't disguise...

(in reply to Greta75)
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