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RE: Black Lies Matter - 1/5/2016 11:42:01 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


I never said per-capita. Most crimes committed in the USA are white-on-white crime. Its an epidemic.



Yeah misleading bullshit. Here's some facts. Blacks commit more murders than whites, despite being 13% of the population rate.

White incidence of violent crime is 106 per 100k. Black violent crime is 473 per 100k.

Don't want to be killed by the police? Don't do crime. Its an occupational hazard.

Black crimes matter.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Black Lies Matter - 1/5/2016 12:49:26 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

Blacks commit more murders than whites, despite being 13% of the population rate.


False.

BTW, you are actively advocating that the police be able to shoot unarmed civilians with impunity. That's very expensive from a civil lawsuit point of view, and its also a nut job position.

If you are so much into racial statistics for crimes (even though you are not getting them correct), what about the racial statistics for wealth distribution. If you want to run 50 miles from the central issues of the BLM movement (police brutality), why not run another 50 miles and delve into the disparities of wealth and income.

BTW you can't run from this fact: Most crimes committed in the USA are white-on-white crimes. Its an epidemic. (As in most overall crimes committed.)

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 1/5/2016 12:52:22 PM >

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Black Lies Matter - 1/5/2016 1:36:11 PM   
bounty44


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Status: offline 		apart from that phydeaux said no such thing that can rightly be construed as police being able to shoot unarmed civilians with impunity...

the rest of what you wrote is a classic example of the differing values systems when it comes to conservatives and liberals.

i might be somewhat brutally bias in my assessment: conservatives recognize income status isn't static, its dynamic. in that regard, there is no "the rich" or "the poor"--the people who inhabit those strata are constantly moving in and out. im hesitant to speak for everyone but for the most part, im going to say its not that big of a deal for us.

but more to the point, conservatives are likely to say, "pull yourself up by your bootstraps and improve your lot" whereas by contrast, this is one of the holy grails for liberals, who are likely to say, and here comes the brutal part, "lets create class envy and hatred, establish a permanent victim class, and take from the rich to give to the poor through government force."

or more gently said "lets take from the rich to give to the poor through government force" and the whole class envy/hatred/victim class thing is just a by-product. but you know, even as im saying that, it just doesn't sit right as the truth of the matter.

never mind that "the poor" in America have it better than "the rich" from just a couple generations ago, and have a standard of living higher than most of the rest of the world. America is your 1% comrades.

makes me wonder what liberals would be doing if they weren't constantly pitting people against each other?



< Message edited by bounty44 -- 1/5/2016 1:48:01 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Black Lies Matter - 1/5/2016 1:45:13 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		YOU keep telling people what liberal and conservative positions are, yet you havent been right yet. The rich have been shafting the poor for a couple of millenia
You expect people to want to keep doing it...especially given the common subsidy corporations use to get richer, sqacking their poorer staff, thru technology.

Got bugger all to do with black people
except they have been shafted more than you ever have.

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Black Lies Matter - 1/5/2016 3:16:41 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

Racism is not the main driver why black lives don't matter.


Imagine that you, yourself, were black. Your grandfather lived during the Jim Crow culture. As such his life really, really did not matter as much as that of a white man. His father was in all likelihood a slave. Do you think that the entire attitude behind that state of affairs has been wiped away by now? I mean, that there's nothing left *at all* of the necessary condition of it, which has it that one race is inferior to the other race? Seriously, Phydeaux, that strikes me as so fundamentally counterintuitive.


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Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Black Lies Matter - 1/5/2016 3:54:26 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

Blacks commit more murders than whites, despite being 13% of the population rate.


BTW you can't run from this fact: Most crimes committed in the USA are white-on-white crimes. Its an epidemic. (As in most overall crimes committed.)


Since you can't be bothered to actually look up stats:

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-49

2014 Arrests for homicide:
Cities: black: 3379
white: 2414

Total: black: 4224
white 3807

2013 Total: Black 4379
White 3799


Its the same, year after fucking year. Blacks kill more people than anyone. Blacks are more than 11 times as likely to kill a white than a white is to kill a black.


You seem to not understand the meaning of the word epidemic. Or much of anything for that matter.

Violent crime in the US has decreased 35% since its peak in 1992. http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/21/family-secret-what-the-left-wont-tell-you-about-bl/

Whites are twice as likely as blacks to get killed by police: http://www.infowars.com/black-crime-facts-that-the-white-liberal-media-darent-talk-about/

Violent crime rates by whites is 1/3 or less the rate for blacks.

So, no, it isn't an epidemic - its at 24 year lows. and trending lower.
whereas year after year blacks continue to inflict an ever increasing % of murders - currently over 56%.

And finally - whites are twice as likely to be killed by the police than blacks.


Black Crimes Matter.

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Black Lies Matter - 1/5/2016 4:14:11 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Imagine that you, yourself, were black. Your grandfather lived during the Jim Crow culture. As such his life really, really did not matter as much as that of a white man. His father was in all likelihood a slave. Do you think that the entire attitude behind that state of affairs has been wiped away by now? I mean, that there's nothing left *at all* of the necessary condition of it, which has it that one race is inferior to the other race? Seriously, Phydeaux, that strikes me as so fundamentally counterintuitive.

Well actually, Peon, if I was treated as inferior, as my father had been treated as inferior before me, and my grandfather before him, by some group of people who believed I was "inferior" because of my race, the last fucking thing in this world I would want from them, or accept, would be their goddamned "help".

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/5/2016 4:27:21 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Black Lies Matter - 1/5/2016 4:27:52 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Racism is not the main driver why black lives don't matter.


Imagine that you, yourself, were black. Your grandfather lived during the Jim Crow culture. As such his life really, really did not matter as much as that of a white man. His father was in all likelihood a slave. Do you think that the entire attitude behind that state of affairs has been wiped away by now? I mean, that there's nothing left *at all* of the necessary condition of it, which has it that one race is inferior to the other race? Seriously, Phydeaux, that strikes me as so fundamentally counterintuitive.



First assumption is that a black mans life did not matter. To whom? By what measure? Number of kids? Liiklihood of being a musican? My point is that mother thersa's life "mattered". She was poor, a woman, and owned nothing. There is a hidden agenda behind the word "matter" which I would like made clear.

What constitutes "mattering" give me an objective definition.

Second. Racism is not the main driver for poverty, which I've explained time after time. Study after study shows that if you want to get out of poverty, get an education and get married. With a third factor of don't have kids at 12 years old - which black girls are doing at rates 10 times any other race.

Third. Were racism the primary cause of black troubles, you would expect black immigrants to perform poorly. They do not. The perform as well as hispanics, which is to say slightly less well than white immigrants - but way better than the native black population.

Fourth. Black are 2.5 times as likely to live in poverty in the UK as whites, despite slavery being abolished in 1833, and with no history of jim crow.
Why is that, since slavery would be one more generations removed. In the US that number is 2.7 times?

Why is it that black poverty is higher in minnesota (5.5x) as it is in areas where Jim Crow was strong (Mississipi 4x).

Here's a few other %: DC: 7x
Alabama: 3x
California 2.8x
Florida 2.4x
NewYork 3x
South Carolina 2.8x
Wisconsin: 5.5x

You siimply cannot make the case that segregation and jim crow laws in the south have a statistically determative effect, regardless of how counterintuitive.

Numbers don't lie. http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/poverty-rate-by-raceethnicity/




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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Black Lies Matter - 1/5/2016 5:02:23 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

Black are 2.5 times as likely to live in poverty in the UK as whites

When one looks at Africa, rich land, but unable to get their shit together and improve lives of their people.
It says alot. Certain races do better than other races. I don't know why, it has something to do with culture, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the colour of their skin, because pitch black south indians do damn well globally as well and are able to rise up in their careers and jobs, despite being black too.

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Black Lies Matter - 1/5/2016 5:04:50 PM   
PeonForHer


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Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Imagine that you, yourself, were black. Your grandfather lived during the Jim Crow culture. As such his life really, really did not matter as much as that of a white man. His father was in all likelihood a slave. Do you think that the entire attitude behind that state of affairs has been wiped away by now? I mean, that there's nothing left *at all* of the necessary condition of it, which has it that one race is inferior to the other race? Seriously, Phydeaux, that strikes me as so fundamentally counterintuitive.

Well actually, Peon, if I was treated as inferior, as my father had been treated as inferior before me, and my grandfather before him, by some group of people who believed I was "inferior" because of my race, the last fucking thing in this world I would want from them, or accept, would be their goddamned "help".

K.




Who said anything about 'help'? In *that* position I'd be looking for 'respect' - though the reality of it, not the half-arsed pretence of it.


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Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Black Lies Matter - 1/5/2016 6:06:32 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Imagine that you, yourself, were black. Your grandfather lived during the Jim Crow culture. As such his life really, really did not matter as much as that of a white man. His father was in all likelihood a slave. Do you think that the entire attitude behind that state of affairs has been wiped away by now? I mean, that there's nothing left *at all* of the necessary condition of it, which has it that one race is inferior to the other race? Seriously, Phydeaux, that strikes me as so fundamentally counterintuitive.

Well actually, Peon, if I was treated as inferior, as my father had been treated as inferior before me, and my grandfather before him, by some group of people who believed I was "inferior" because of my race, the last fucking thing in this world I would want from them, or accept, would be their goddamned "help".

K.




Who said anything about 'help'? In *that* position I'd be looking for 'respect' - though the reality of it, not the half-arsed pretence of it.

Well then, as is often heard on here...earn it.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Black Lies Matter - 1/6/2016 4:43:55 AM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		there's a nice historical contrast here seen between the lives of jesse owens and the people who were a part of the black power movement & work behind the very visible awards ceremony protest that took place on the medal stand at the 1968 Olympics.

owens, having grown up in jim crow America believed that the best way to break through and earn respect was to be hard working, and himself, respectful. his presence at the 68 Olympics was met with much derision by his fellow black track descendants. their method was to agitate, which is something owens was against. of course he was called an uncle tom.

some time later, I believe owens softened his view towards them a little...

for a review of the book he wrote touching on the matter:

http://library.la84.org/OlympicInformationCenter/OlympicReview/1971/ore43/ore43j.pdf

if you are interested in more (the whole book):

https://openlibrary.org/books/OL5444779M/Blackthink


< Message edited by bounty44 -- 1/6/2016 4:44:26 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Black Lies Matter - 1/6/2016 6:07:23 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Imagine that you, yourself, were black. Your grandfather lived during the Jim Crow culture. As such his life really, really did not matter as much as that of a white man. His father was in all likelihood a slave. Do you think that the entire attitude behind that state of affairs has been wiped away by now? I mean, that there's nothing left *at all* of the necessary condition of it, which has it that one race is inferior to the other race? Seriously, Phydeaux, that strikes me as so fundamentally counterintuitive.

Well actually, Peon, if I was treated as inferior, as my father had been treated as inferior before me, and my grandfather before him, by some group of people who believed I was "inferior" because of my race, the last fucking thing in this world I would want from them, or accept, would be their goddamned "help".

Who said anything about 'help'? In *that* position I'd be looking for 'respect' - though the reality of it, not the half-arsed pretence of it.

You don't get it, do you. I wouldn't be asking for anything from them. Respect? Does that notion come from living in a society with classist "upstairs, downstairs" roots? Well be at ease. Inferior though you may be, I do most sincerely respect you as a person. There, all better now. Have a rosy day.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/6/2016 6:32:34 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Black Lies Matter - 1/6/2016 4:23:36 PM   
cloudboy


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You are correct, I misread the stats column.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Black Lies Matter - 1/6/2016 4:36:41 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		Kudos for being big enough to admit it.

so let's take the next step.

You see that blacks are stopped at rates twice as great as whites yet whites are killed at twice the rate of blacks - what does that say about police brutality?

It suggests that racing is not a significant component of police brutality.
At least not against blacks.

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 1/6/2016 4:37:06 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Black Lies Matter - 1/6/2016 7:26:30 PM   
cloudboy


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I had it wrong, even after checking the same chart.

>You see that blacks are stopped at rates twice as great as whites yet whites are killed at twice the rate of blacks - what does that say about police brutality?<

Killed by whom? I can't make sense of this statement.

Let me just say categorically: I don't think the police should be in the business of shooting unarmed civilians. Yet, the police can largely do it with impunity. That's a problem, and its not an easy situation to address.

The Drug War has also militarized the police against the local populations for little end-game benefit.

As for the previous fact, I will say it again, you were right. (About the murder rates)

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Black Lies Matter - 1/6/2016 7:33:08 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


I had it wrong, even after checking the same chart.

>You see that blacks are stopped at rates twice as great as whites yet whites are killed at twice the rate of blacks - what does that say about police brutality?<

Killed by whom? I can't make sense of this statement.

Let me just say categorically: I don't think the police should be in the business of shooting unarmed civilians. Yet, the police can largely do it with impunity. That's a problem, and its not an easy situation to address.

The Drug War has also militarized the police against the local populations for little end-game benefit.

As for the previous fact, I will say it again, you were right. (About the murder rates)

Killed by whom? The police of course.

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Black Lies Matter - 1/6/2016 8:30:43 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy



>You see that blacks are stopped at rates twice as great as whites yet whites are killed at twice the rate of blacks - what does that say about police brutality?<

Killed by whom? I can't make sense of this statement.



My fourth link on post 106 contains the following statement:

According to data from the Centers for Disease Control, between 1999 and 2011, 2,151 whites died as a result of being shot by police compared to 1,130 blacks.
So despite blacks being stopped by police 2.5 times as frequently as whites, they are killed half as often.

In other words, when you compare death rates per police stop, whites are 5 times more likely to be killed by a police officer than a black.

The whole point of BLM is to protest alleged police brutality, when, in reality, it should be WHITES protesting.

This is why you have to stop watching trash news sources like MSNBC and CNN.

quote:


Let me just say categorically: I don't think the police should be in the business of shooting unarmed civilians. Yet, the police can largely do it with impunity. That's a problem, and its not an easy situation to address.


I agree that police should not be able to shoot people with impunity. And I am going to turn your world upside down, one more time.

Police brutality like this is EXACTLY why police unions are a huge problem. Unions, like teachers, have negotiated grievance procedures that are so heinous that it is almost impossible to to dismiss the few bad apples. In most large cities it takes no less than 2 years to negotiate the firing process -with more than a dozen hearings. All the while, the bad apple is drawing full salary, and typically not working. This is another example where democrats have put the concerns of their members (unions) ahead of the public good.

Now, that said, I do want to stick up for the police here. Roughly 400 people are killed a year. I think roughly 10% of them are the murder of innocent people - call it 40 people. Its horrible. But the victims families have recourse - multi million dollar lawsuits are common. Does that repair the injury - no- it will never be fair. But 55 people die on average to lighting, with typically no recourse. So it sucks - but I can't imagine a human designed system working better.

40 innocent deaths, more or less out of 40,000,000 interactions between police and the public at large. In other words, if you are innocent, you have a 1 in a million chance of being killed by police.

And that number, I think, could be cut in half if you remember that it may be dark, the police may be in a bad section of town and nervous. Cops have to deal with drug addicts, gangs, sociopaths. Domestic violence.

Be courteous to the police. Obey orders. Inform him of weapons. Keep your hands visible. Don't be drunk or high. Do these things and I think you would cut it down another 1/2.




< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 1/6/2016 8:37:05 PM >

(in reply to cloudboy)
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