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RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge... - 1/4/2016 5:41:37 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux



Banned? Once again you are incorrect. My absence was not due to banning. I did not like how they treated the girl that worked so hard on this site, so for 18 months or so I did not return. Had she put up a competing site I would have visited it. As she did not I am here.




Are you talking about Mod 3?



I'm terrible with names. The girl that owned the domain collarme.com

My mistake. I thought you were talking about 3.

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RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge... - 1/4/2016 5:41:45 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Lucy, I gave two historic examples of armed takeover by leftists.

Why do you think aim is a leftist organization?

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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge... - 1/4/2016 5:42:24 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
I don't so much oppose it Des, but I wonder just what they hope to accomplish. Maybe they have the wrong leaders just like most others. Chosen for the wrong reasons.
T^T


I only oppose how they are doing it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
And just because a rancher brings his gun with him does not mean it isn't a peaceful protest. But, being armed does discourage using flash bangs and CS gas in an armed take down of a peaceful protest.


Threatening to do whatever is necessary to remain there, generally, isn't peaceful.


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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge... - 1/4/2016 5:42:50 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
"but we don’t have a constitutional right to use force of violence or threaten force of violence on others"
The Declaration Of Independence says we do. Some may argue that that is not actual law, but the fact that it is written in the main founding document of this country must count for something. Lkike the right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness is not in the Costitution but the Declaration, though the Constitution serves to enforce these rights, or should.



3. The Declaration of Independence is more like a background document that the US Constitution springs from. While the DoI does mention ridding ourselves of a despotic government (which would, more than likely, require use of force), it does not mention the right to threaten force to change one small aspect of government.


The Declaration of Independence is actually enshrined as the first law in US canon, put there by a later law. If you google the subject you will find that when states like arizona (or others, forget which) were admitted to the union they were required to attest that they would uphold the declaration and the constitution.


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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge... - 1/4/2016 5:45:34 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Would not an unarmed demonstration requiring forced eviction been a better option if they desired to bring their case to the American public? This stinks of armed rebellion in my way of thinking and deserves a strong quick response.
What do you think conservative reaction would have been if armed African Americans occupied the Ferguson Missouri City Hall? Would you call them terrorists?
Butch

Actually, if they didn't break in, and were there peacefully, that would be within their Constitutional rights.
Taking over a government building when it wasn't open sounds like it was breaking in, and the thinly veiled threat of retaliation certainly isn't exactly peaceful.
I don't oppose their assembling and petitioning government. I oppose how they did it/are doing it.

Looking for the story again right now, but
I read somewhere today that they had managed to get hold of a set of keys, so they are arguing that they did not break in as there was no damage done. They just unlocked the door and went in. Also there have apparently been reports that they are destroying the building, but a reporter who was allowed to tour it said there is no evidence that anything has been damaged.
On the flip side, law enforcement officials are sending their children elsewhere because they are being threatened if the law intervenes (the children being the 'they', not the adults).
Trying to find it now. Hope I remembered this right.


Did they have permission to be there? Unlawful entry might not have included "breaking" anything,but it's still illegal.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge... - 1/4/2016 5:48:33 PM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		no one ever in my life has referred to me as intellectually dishonest.

I am pretty sure I have but if perchance I am mistaken let me take this opportunity to tell you straight up... dude you are intellectually dishonest.

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge... - 1/4/2016 6:19:39 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I think they should gas...em... then when they wake up they can find themselves in Guantanamo with the rest of the terrorist... I wonder if then the fanatics in the house would be willing to close it...

Butch

I don't see any problem with gassing them out. Has nothing to do with sending them to GIT-MO.



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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge... - 1/4/2016 6:41:21 PM   
Greta75


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My take in all this. Nobody got hurt. Nobody got killed. They took over a building without having hostages, hurting anybody. It was a peaceful take-over.

To want to punish these folks the same level as we punished Islamic terrorists and compare them to ISIS is ridiculous. When they start enslaving and raping women, and suicide bombing all over America, then let's call them terrorists.

For now, to me, it sounds like a peaceful protest and they seem like activists and protesters, protesting something. If they broke a law, they should face the consequences accordingly.

Until some brutality and killings happen, I don't know why there is even any comparision to terrorist groups like Al Queda and ISIS.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 1/4/2016 6:45:21 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge... - 1/4/2016 6:43:54 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Would not an unarmed demonstration requiring forced eviction been a better option if they desired to bring their case to the American public? This stinks of armed rebellion in my way of thinking and deserves a strong quick response.
What do you think conservative reaction would have been if armed African Americans occupied the Ferguson Missouri City Hall? Would you call them terrorists?
Butch


Actually, if they didn't break in, and were there peacefully, that would be within their Constitutional rights.

Taking over a government building when it wasn't open sounds like it was breaking in, and the thinly veiled threat of retaliation certainly isn't exactly peaceful.

I don't oppose their assembling and petitioning government. I oppose how they did it/are doing it.


Looking for the story again right now, but
I read somewhere today that they had managed to get hold of a set of keys, so they are arguing that they did not break in as there was no damage done. They just unlocked the door and went in. Also there have apparently been reports that they are destroying the building, but a reporter who was allowed to tour it said there is no evidence that anything has been damaged.

On the flip side, law enforcement officials are sending their children elsewhere because they are being threatened if the law intervenes (the children being the 'they', not the adults).

Trying to find it now. Hope I remembered this right.

I hope you didn't.

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People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge... - 1/4/2016 6:47:30 PM   
Wayward5oul


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Did they have permission to be there? Unlawful entry might not have included "breaking" anything,but it's still illegal.

Having trouble finding the article stating that they used keys and haven't damaged anything, but yeah it seemed to me as I read it earlier that they are defining 'break-in' in the literal sense of the word, which is an absurd argument, as 'break-in' is really more of a colloquialism, not a legal term. Widely understood as a a form of unlawful entry.

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RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge... - 1/4/2016 6:49:12 PM   
Greta75


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I was watching this super old incident of Geraldo Rivera hosting some Nazi Skinheads, and then the skinheads called the Jew and Black dude some derogatory verbal slur and the Black dude walked over to strangle one of the Nazi Skinheads, all hell broke loose, Obviously, other Nazi skins came to his defense.

What amazes me is, this happen on live TV. So, if someone calls you a racial slur, it's perfectly acceptable to use physical violence on them? Geraldo disappointingly only blames the Nazi skins for it but didn't even mentioned how unacceptable was it for the Black dude to use violence in retaliating to a verbal assault. He infact praised the black dude actions.
The incident is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0yN0dGNfwk

Or maybe it shows exactly how, minority groups like Muslims and Black people gets sympathy for behaving violently and are given a hall pass.

Whereas if white folks even act up a little, they get punished the worst. I mean just listen to this! Because those protesters are white, people are saying, send them to Guantanamo bay. If they were black protesters, nobody would say anything remotely like that.

I will call this group terrorists when they start killing. Until then. They are protesters. Over-zealous ones, just like Peta. And if BLM have started killing too, I will call them terrorists too.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 1/4/2016 6:53:48 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge... - 1/4/2016 7:00:27 PM   
Wayward5oul


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:


Trying to find it now. Hope I remembered this right.

I hope you didn't.

Yeah, I would have preferred to be wrong about that, that no one was threatened, but that wasn't the case. How credible a threat it was is still a little unclear. Could have been an angry utterance. But that would have been enough for me to be scared and send my kids elsewhere.

Keith Landon, a longtime resident of Burns and employee at the Reid Country Store, said he knows local law enforcement officials who fear their kids will be targeted by angry militia members. The mother of one of his kids is now involved with an officer, Landon said, and they decided to send their children to another town after they were allegedly threatened by an angry protester.

http://kxan.com/2016/01/04/oregon-town-watches-warily-as-armed-protesters-take-over-refuge/

And as horrible a situation as this is, I couldn't help but giggle a little to read that some of the protesters went to the sheriff's office and made a complaint that the sheriff's mother threatened them. She is 74.

The sheriff said three militiamen and one woman, one with a gun strapped to his hip, engaged his 74-year-old mother and 78-year-old father at a yard sale being held at the American Legion. When the men criticized the sheriff, his mother bristled, and said she didn't need their protection from the government.

Later, the men showed up at the sheriff's office to complain about the exchange involving his mother.

She had, they said, threatened them.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2015/12/militiamen_ranchers_in_showdow.html


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RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge... - 1/4/2016 7:33:34 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		The Gitmo was suggested tongue and cheek...although I see no difference between Muslim terrorist and these assholes....It would serve them right to be incarcerated without a right to trial just as many of the prisoners in Gitmo have endured for years.

The second they decided to arm themselves they stepped away from their Constitutional right to peaceful protest and became criminals...and they deserve to be treated that way.

I am certainly not against a protest over the re-sentencing which I find difficult to understand but taking up arms against your government is treason.

Butch

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RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge... - 1/4/2016 7:34:47 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:


Trying to find it now. Hope I remembered this right.

I hope you didn't.

Yeah, I would have preferred to be wrong about that, that no one was threatened, but that wasn't the case. How credible a threat it was is still a little unclear. Could have been an angry utterance. But that would have been enough for me to be scared and send my kids elsewhere.

Keith Landon, a longtime resident of Burns and employee at the Reid Country Store, said he knows local law enforcement officials who fear their kids will be targeted by angry militia members. The mother of one of his kids is now involved with an officer, Landon said, and they decided to send their children to another town after they were allegedly threatened by an angry protester.

http://kxan.com/2016/01/04/oregon-town-watches-warily-as-armed-protesters-take-over-refuge/

And as horrible a situation as this is, I couldn't help but giggle a little to read that some of the protesters went to the sheriff's office and made a complaint that the sheriff's mother threatened them. She is 74.

The sheriff said three militiamen and one woman, one with a gun strapped to his hip, engaged his 74-year-old mother and 78-year-old father at a yard sale being held at the American Legion. When the men criticized the sheriff, his mother bristled, and said she didn't need their protection from the government.

Later, the men showed up at the sheriff's office to complain about the exchange involving his mother.

She had, they said, threatened them.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2015/12/militiamen_ranchers_in_showdow.html



Am I correct in thinking there is no known link between thr protesters and the threats? Not that this makes the threats acceptable in any way.
The Sheriff on the other hand went off the deep end and said these guys were trying to not only overthrow the county government, but the Federal government as well.

As for the complaint against his mother, I can't see these guys admitting she threatened them even if she said she was going to shoot them, that complaint is just silly.

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge... - 1/4/2016 7:40:49 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The Gitmo was suggested tongue and cheek...although I see no difference between Muslim terrorist and these assholes....It would serve them right to be incarcerated without a right to trial just as many of the prisoners in Gitmo have endured for years.

The second they decided to arm themselves they stepped away from their Constitutional right to peaceful protest and became criminals...and they deserve to be treated that way.

I am certainly not against a protest over the re-sentencing which I find difficult to understand but taking up arms against your government is treason.

Butch

Huge difference.
They are not threatening violence unless the government decides to pull another Waco/Ruby Ridge. A plausible possibility. They have, obviously done it before, and these guys are just letting them know it will cost them if they try it. Who have they killed, what have they destroyed? Nothing. Again they have repeatedly stated that they want a PEACEFULL solution to this.

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge... - 1/4/2016 7:50:06 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

They are not threatening violence unless the government decides to pull another Waco/Ruby Ridge


That is a threat bama...the" unless" is the key word...They have threatened to kill bama... how about you volunteering to be a sheriff deputy charged with enforcing the law you swore to uphold. Just like the little black kid that was shot in the QT with a play gun... I remember you justifying it because you would not know if it was real or he planned to shoot. Will is this any different?... I want my property back from those criminals and because they have guns I would be justified in using force if i had to.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/4/2016 7:53:09 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge... - 1/4/2016 7:52:38 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		If they want a peaceful solution then throw out their guns.... simple.


Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge... - 1/4/2016 8:00:53 PM   
Wayward5oul


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
As for the complaint against his mother, I can't see these guys admitting she threatened them even if she said she was going to shoot them, that complaint is just silly.

I thought that too...no way in hell would I ever expect someone in this type of situation to admit to being threatened by a 74 year old grandmother. But there is nothing that has happened that would indicate the sheriff has lied about anything.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Am I correct in thinking there is no known link between thr protesters and the threats? Not that this makes the threats acceptable in any way.

Nothing I have seen yet identifies who made the threat other than 'angry protesters'.


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
The Sheriff on the other hand went off the deep end and said these guys were trying to not only overthrow the county government, but the Federal government as well.


I wouldn't call it the deep end. There is a lot of backstory and little details that get lost in reporting the big picture, but that can be found elsewhere. Apparently Bundy has been posting about this for two months, talking about the peaceful protest but also telling followers to 'come prepared to take a stand'. Even the Oathkeepers, who I would think would be the last to denounce this, have a long statement posted right on their official site, and they suggest that uprising against the Federal Government may very well be part of his plan. And they are calling Bundy out for misleading people about his intentions regarding just how far he will take this.

From the Oathkeepers site:
He then describes plans for a rally, march, and protest on Saturday, January 2, that will march though town and end by placing flowers in front of the Hammond family residence in town. That description sounds like it will be only a protest, and that is the apparent intent of the Three Percenter groups involved, but Ammon’s rhetoric goes way beyond just a protest. For example, on December 11th, he posted:

Please understand that we must exhaust all prudent measures before taking a physical stand against the horrific actions that the People of Harney County are enduring (including the Hammond’s). If this Notice is ignored, then one more Notice of Demand will be sent, it will list the many petitions that have been ignored and demand that the Hammond’s rights be restored. If that final Notice is rejected then People across the Union will have justification to assemble and once again restore individual rights. (emphasis added.)

So, at the least, Ammon is sending out confusing and contradictory messages of what he is asking people to do, and at the worst, he is planning on going far beyond a mere protest, and intends some form of armed direct action (and all despite the Hammonds making it known that Ammon does not speak for them and they intend to voluntarily report to federal custody.)

At the very least Ammon needs to make it very clear what he is asking people to do, and he needs to make it clear that he is going against the clearly stated intent of the Hammonds. His rhetoric is all about taking a stand and defending the Hammonds from being taking into custody and then going further and defending the entire county against the Feds, despite serious opposition by the local community against any form of armed confrontation.

https://www.oathkeepers.org/the-hammond-family-does/

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge... - 1/4/2016 8:44:05 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

They are not threatening violence unless the government decides to pull another Waco/Ruby Ridge


That is a threat bama...the" unless" is the key word...They have threatened to kill bama... how about you volunteering to be a sheriff deputy charged with enforcing the law you swore to uphold. Just like the little black kid that was shot in the QT with a play gun... I remember you justifying it because you would not know if it was real or he planned to shoot. Will is this any different?... I want my property back from those criminals and because they have guns I would be justified in using force if i had to.

Butch

As I pointed out in the other post the Sheriff is going out out of his way to make this more confrontational than need be. You don't seem to understand the difference between we will kill you and if you try to kill us we will kill you.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge... - 1/4/2016 8:48:00 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

we will kill you and if you try to kill us we will kill you.


Oh yea good law abiding peaceful protest there...sometimes i just cannot believe what you say...lol

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 120
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