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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/26/2016 1:11:43 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler


quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
And, Scandinavia. Your lack of any factual knowledge betrays a lack of intellect on the actual world...


Once again your "knowledge" is myth and out of date.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2007/jun/16/20070616-080932-5740r/?page=all
http://nypost.com/2015/10/19/sorry-bernie-scandinavia-is-no-socialist-paradise-after-all/
http://reason.com/blog/2012/06/08/sweden-not-a-socialist-standard-bearer-a
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/248263/swedens-quiet-revolution-duncan-currie
http://patriotupdate.com/sweden-leads-way-dumping-socialism/
Here, let me quote a bit


Since the early 1990s, when it suffered a painful financial crisis, the Scandinavian country has deregulated key industries (such as airlines, telecommunications, and electricity), lowered its overall tax burden, established universal school vouchers, partially privatized its pension system, abolished certain government monopolies, sold a number of state-owned enterprises (including the parent company of Absolut vodka), and trimmed public spending. Several years ago, it eliminated gift and inheritance taxes. The World Economic Forum now ranks Sweden as the second-most competitive economy on earth, behind only Switzerland. According to the 2010 Index of Economic Freedom (compiled by the Wall Street Journal and the Heritage Foundation), Sweden offers greater business freedom, trade freedom, monetary freedom, investment freedom, financial freedom, freedom from corruption, and property-rights protection than does the United States.



Tax dodgers will go to tax havens like Johns will go to the fleshpots of the world. Doesn't mean they are moral



It also doesn't mean oppressive taxes or the governments that inflict them are moral, either. Pretty stupid comment.

I may frame it. First time I've ever heard sweden, with an income tax of 56% and a VAT tax of 25% as a tax haven.


You later say Sweden is less socialist than us with 56% income tax and socialized healthcare

Scandinavia is the tax haven if you read your own citations. Lowering taxes in one country moves companies there, it does not create additional global wealth. In fact, it often lowers it as location is chosen for taxes, not ease of production



quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Bahamas has 0% taxation as do dozens of other countries. Calling sweden a tax haven is ridiculous; you're just trying to save face. Have some intellectual honesty. A tax haven is a place you move money to, in order to avoid taxes.

No one is moving money to sweden for a tax haven.


Scandinavia and Sweden are two different countries. Try reading your own links and other's posts before acting the fool




Idiot. Scandinavia is not a country; it is a region with similar characteristics. The countries that are usually considered to be consider "scandinavian" are Denmark, Norway, and Sweden.

None of which are tax havens.

When you say such uninformed things it is shocking. I say things many people here will dispute but I never speak from a position of such ignorance as to say something like .. scandinavia is a country. You should practice what you preach "Try reading your own links and other's posts before acting the fool"

Cue Mnotter/thompsonx making his usual character assassinations..

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Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/26/2016 1:19:06 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler

Percentages don't add up, the guninfo.com, it's fricking unbelievable. Then a place that has mostly socialized Medicare and 56% income tax is the conservative el dorado

Up is down, black is white


The point - which you so deliberately ignore - is that sweden's movement has been away from socialism at the same time as the US has been moving towards socialism.

For example: Sweden has recently started requiring co-pays on medical services and medicines; it allows people to opt out of the socialized medicine. It has reformed its pension rules; it has cut taxes and relaxed business regulations. In the 70's sweden taxed Pippi longstocking's author more than her income, with a top marginal tax rate of 102%.

It has cut social welfare programs. As a result its debt has gone from 80% to 40% of gdp.
Whereas the US has gone from 60% to 110%.

All this is to make the point - bernie sanders has been saying - we want to be more like sweden. But sweden itself doesn't want to be like sweden. During the 70's - 90's swedish job growth was almost non existent. Deficits were high. etc etc.

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Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/26/2016 1:20:11 PM   
mnottertail


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Lets go to the swedes rather than the idiots, the nutsuckers.

http://www.thelocal.se/20100326/25756


Sweden has abolished both wealth tax and inheritance and gift tax. Insurance bonds now offer significant benefits in Sweden


< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/26/2016 1:21:33 PM >


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/26/2016 1:33:58 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Lets go to the swedes rather than the idiots, the nutsuckers.

http://www.thelocal.se/20100326/25756


Sweden has abolished both wealth tax and inheritance and gift tax. Insurance bonds now offer significant benefits in Sweden




OK, I concede that for some very specific kinds of transactions (must be non divident yeilding, equity only, with a purchase and hold as opposed to daily trading kind of structure in an up market) sweden has one kind of attractive investment vehicle.

But your own article said it: Sweden is a tax haven only in the sense that is a haven from even higher taxes in the surrounding countries. Ie., its a European tax haven.

Which goes back to the point I made earlier. If you wish to conduct business in Scandinavia (or Europe), or have residency in norway and wish to avoid norwegian taxes, then sweden may be attractive.

But investing into a market (or living there while making $) is not what a tax haven is, which according to American Heritage Dictionary is
"A place that levies very low taxes or none at all on foreigners. "

For the vast majority of people, sweden doesn't qualify as a tax haven.

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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/26/2016 2:08:07 PM   
mnottertail


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Great, so now about how they are turning away from socialism, and how moronic nutsuckers think they are funny funny guys, when they tell lying propaganda jokes....

You got more stipulating or conceding to do.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/26/2016 6:20:46 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

See anything in that that says school boards?
Minn. Bd. Commun. for Colleges v. Knight
465 U.S. 271 (1984)

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Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/26/2016 6:37:17 PM   
DominantWrestler


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No, the point is their income tax is higher and their healthcare is more socialized than America's

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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/26/2016 6:55:50 PM   
vincentML


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@ DesideriScuri

quote:

LOL!! Nowhere did I say the Constitution stops at the classroom door for anyone. Your statement is incredibly irrelevant.
Ummm. . . yes, you pretty much did.
"The Constitution prevents the Federal Government from removing The People's right to peaceably assemble and petition government for redress of grievances.

Union negotiations aren't exactly "peaceable assemblies" to "petition for redress of grievances." Negotiating higher wages, classroom sizes, medical co-pays, etc. isn't exactly asking government to correct a wrong."

quote:

If you noticed, I've always mentioned Toledo Public Schools.


Not clear that you did. Not from the beginning. See your quotes above.

quote:

But, nowhere have you shown that pay, benefits, etc. are wrongs that need to be righted (which is what "petitioning government for a redress of grievances" means).

You should take a closer look at the case you linked to earlier Minn. Bd. Commun. for Colleges v. Knight
465 U.S. 271 (1984)

If you take care to read the summary of the case you will find that the Community College Board set up policy committees with the Union. The appellees were non-union teachers who claimed [their rights ] were infringed.

The court ruled

"Appellees' speech and associational rights have not been infringed by PELRA's restriction of participation in "meet and confer" sessions to the faculty's exclusive representative. The State has not restrained appellees' freedom to speak on any education-related issue or to associate or not to associate with whom they please, including the exclusive representative"

In other words, the employer (government) need only listen to one voice ~ the recognized union.
quote:

LMMFAO!!! This has nothing to do with race! Blacks are not the only race that suffers academically because of crappy home environments! I thought you wanted everyone to be treated equally? Why single out blacks?
It speaks for itself. Black families make up the largest ethnic group in Toledo, they have the lowest income, and the coubty spends less per pupil than in the suburban counties. Ipso facto. Your ideology places blinders next to your eyes because you don't want to deal with the truth.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/26/2016 7:01:07 PM >

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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/26/2016 8:18:15 PM   
vincentML


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@ DesideriScuri

So, tell me if Toledo teachers have not been negotiating with the school board then who is this?

That means the report was accepted, although union officials called upon district negotiators to return to the bargaining table.

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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/27/2016 12:30:55 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:


Ridiculous. But since you are making the assertion that union negotiations with local school boards are an example of a citizen's First ammendment right - please find a cite or two that supports that.

The right of redress (wiki)

While the prohibition of abridgment of the right to petition originally referred only to the federal legislature (the Congress) and courts, the incorporation doctrine later expanded the protection of the right to its current scope, over all state and federal courts and legislatures and the executive branches of the state[8][dead link] and federal governments. The right to petition includes under its umbrella the right to sue the government,[9][dead link] and the right of individuals, groups and possibly corporations to lobby the government.

See anything in that that says school boards?
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

See anything in that that says school boards?
Minn. Bd. Commun. for Colleges v. Knight
465 U.S. 271 (1984)



Which is, in other words, a "no".

I asked you for a citation showing that union negotiation with school boards was part of the constitutionally protected right of redress (which you have stated over and over it was).

You provided a case that shows that professors DID NOT have the right to petition school boards or their instruments for redress.

Not that I think your citation is likely to hold water. This is an offshoot of the decision the supreme court is looking at now - can unions abridge the rights of non union members. Conventional wisdom says the supremes are going to toss Heller et.al.

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Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/27/2016 8:09:28 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
@ DesideriScuri
quote:

LOL!! Nowhere did I say the Constitution stops at the classroom door for anyone. Your statement is incredibly irrelevant.

Ummm. . . yes, you pretty much did.
"The Constitution prevents the Federal Government from removing The People's right to peaceably assemble and petition government for redress of grievances.
Union negotiations aren't exactly "peaceable assemblies" to "petition for redress of grievances." Negotiating higher wages, classroom sizes, medical co-pays, etc. isn't exactly asking government to correct a wrong."


You have not shown those things to be wrongs needing correcting, vincent. If a school administration violates a CBA, the NLRB is there to help redress those grievances. Wanting more money this time 'round than what was agreed to last time isn't a "wrong" that needs corrected.

In the case of Florida, the State government has passed legislation stating public unions can negotiate over A, B, and C. Those aren't even "grievances," and the union isn't petitioning government for redress of a grievance anyway. In the case of Florida, I have no problem with public employees joining unions to negotiate over A, B, C, etc. that they have been giving the okay to do by legislation. But, that's a Florida law, not a Constitutional right.

quote:

quote:

If you noticed, I've always mentioned Toledo Public Schools.

Not clear that you did. Not from the beginning. See your quotes above.


When it's come to specifics, I have.

quote:

quote:

But, nowhere have you shown that pay, benefits, etc. are wrongs that need to be righted (which is what "petitioning government for a redress of grievances" means).

You should take a closer look at the case you linked to earlier Minn. Bd. Commun. for Colleges v. Knight
465 U.S. 271 (1984)
If you take care to read the summary of the case you will find that the Community College Board set up policy committees with the Union. The appellees were non-union teachers who claimed [their rights ] were infringed.
The court ruled
"Appellees' speech and associational rights have not been infringed by PELRA's restriction of participation in "meet and confer" sessions to the faculty's exclusive representative. The State has not restrained appellees' freedom to speak on any education-related issue or to associate or not to associate with whom they please, including the exclusive representative"
In other words, the employer (government) need only listen to one voice ~ the recognized union.


That doesn't rebut my statement at all.

quote:

quote:

LMMFAO!!! This has nothing to do with race! Blacks are not the only race that suffers academically because of crappy home environments! I thought you wanted everyone to be treated equally? Why single out blacks?
It speaks for itself. Black families make up the largest ethnic group in Toledo, they have the lowest income, and the coubty spends less per pupil than in the suburban counties. Ipso facto. Your ideology places blinders next to your eyes because you don't want to deal with the truth.


You didn't look at the numbers by any stretch of the imagination. Only one suburban school district spent more per pupil than Toledo Public, and that was Ottawa Hills, which is in the most affluent area of the County (I have no idea how they got to be an incorporated Village wholly surrounded by the City of Toledo, but there it is). Every other public school district in Lucas County spends less per pupil than Toledo Public. The lowest per pupil spend is the district my kids are in, and is the second best performing district. Every other public district in Lucas County gets fewer State and Federal dollars than Toledo Public.

Here is my post (Post#40) with the numbers.

Of the public schools, Toledo Public has the lowest amount spent per pupil that isn't coming from the State or Federal governments.

Ottawa Hills 75.21%
Anthony Wayne 63.49%
Sylvania City 65.92%
Maumee City 63.02%
Springfield 64.28%
Oregon City 50.72%
Washington 51.69%
Toledo City 29.82%

So, while Ottawa Hills might be spending $13.5k to Toledo's $12.4k per pupil, the residents of their respective communities aren't spending anywhere near the same amount (Ottawa Hills non-State/Federal spend is higher than 4 other area schools total per pupil spend).

How in the hell do you come up with the idea that less is spent on blacks (I mean, there are whites and hispanics in Toledo Public Schools, too).

As a matter of fact: 66.3% of the students in the TPS are either single-race white (64%) or include white as part of a multi-racial makeup (2.3%). Blacks/African-Americans make up 30.8% of the student population (29.4% as a single race and 1.4% as part of a multi-racial makeup).

Obviously, playing the race card (and accusing me of being blinded by ideology) was pretty fucking ignorant on your part.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/27/2016 8:17:55 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
@ DesideriScuri
So, tell me if Toledo teachers have not been negotiating with the school board then who is this?
That means the report was accepted, although union officials called upon district negotiators to return to the bargaining table.


The Toledo Board of Education isn't government. The Toledo School District and the City of Toledo are completely separate entities.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/27/2016 8:19:49 AM   
vincentML


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~fr~

Charter School Insiders Now Admit Public Education Can't Be Remade In Wall St.'s Image

Charter schools, which have been criticized for grabbing billions in taxpayer dollars with promises to reinvent public education using corporate efficiencies and values, are finding themselves under fire from industry insiders who are saying that these hyped market-based reforms don’t work.

The criticism comes in the wake of scandals by some of the sector’s biggest for-profit players that have given the industry a bad name. But the remarks appear to reflect a new public relations and lobbying strategy, where allies of non-profit charter operators are blaming their for-profit brethren as a way to duck political fallout, avoid scrutiny for many of the same practices and to boost their market niche.

[SNIP]

EMO—or education management organizations—is the Wall Street-created term for firms running charter school chains—like HMO refers to health maintenance organizations in the health care world. When charters emerged in the early 1990s as a reform idea, they were envisioned as a new type of public schools that would be small, locally run, innovative and open to all students. In the two decades since, they have become an industry dominated by growing brands—some for-profit, some non-profit—and the primary mechanism for privatizing public schools and public school functions. The sector has more than 6,700 schools with 2.9 million students across the country.

In many states, specially created authorities—not locally elected school boards—hire EMOs to run their newly created charter public schools. Miron said there were roughly 100 for-profit EMOs running about 900 schools and about 300 nonprofit EMOs running 2,000-plus schools. In all, they account for about 1.2 million students nationwide.

Miron, who also is a National Education Policy Center fellow at the University of Colorado, has been tracking the charter school industry for years and co-wrote a late 2015 report with Rutgers University’s Bruce Baker that detailed the various ways unscrupulous or greedy operators skim profits from running these schools.

That report identified four major areas where taxpayer funds were being diverted from academics into profit centers for owners-operators. What was most striking was the array of complex business strategies that have little to do with improving student achievement but much more to do with diverting money from classrooms, teacher salaries, real estate assets and funds obtained from selling government-backed bonds. The Center’s report is very complex and shows how many charter operators use an intentional web of interrelated for-profit and non-profit shells

“It is very hard to distinguish the behaviors of for-profits and non-profits—consider the issue of administrative salaries for example,” said Alex Molnar, National Education Policy Center research professor and publications director

The center’s reports have detailed why two business models are not as different as one may assume, as both have underwriters, targeted metrics and set their own salary and management structures—including no-bid contracts.

“Most nonprofit EMOs operate similar to for-profit EMOs,” said Miron. “Their management fees, and management contracts look similar to the for-profits and the concerns about privatization, weak or powerless boards, lack of transparency, high salaries at the top, etc. etc. are all similar to concerns we have with the for-profit EMOs.”

In other words, despite the public pronouncements by charter industry insiders that their for-profit operators are need to be quarantined and held to a different standard than their non-profit operators, it is a myth to suggest the industry’s internal divisions are so black and white.


http://www.alternet.org/education/charter-school-insiders-now-admit-public-education-cant-be-remade-wall-sts-image

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Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/27/2016 8:38:54 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

You provided a case that shows that professors DID NOT have the right to petition school boards or their instruments for redress


Wrong, the decision says professors not in the recognized union were NOT disabused of their rights, explicitly recognizing those rights of a union to bargain with a government entity.

quote:

Not that I think your citation is likely to hold water. This is an offshoot of the decision the supreme court is looking at now - can unions abridge the rights of non union members. Conventional wisdom says the supremes are going to toss Heller et.al.


Wrong again. The union is not a governmental unit so it has no obligation to uphold the constitution. Furthermore, the case in Fredericks is about non-union teachers claiming the free speech rights are abridged by the school board by mandatory dues check off, which is no big deal since mandatory dues payment have been forbidden in rtw states for decades.

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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/27/2016 9:15:10 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Of the public schools, Toledo Public has the lowest amount spent per pupil that isn't coming from the State or Federal governments.

Ottawa Hills 75.21%
Anthony Wayne 63.49%
Sylvania City 65.92%
Maumee City 63.02%
Springfield 64.28%
Oregon City 50.72%
Washington 51.69%
Toledo City 29.82%

Exactly, what I said.

quote:

Blacks/African-Americans make up 30.8% of the student population (29.4% as a single race and 1.4% as part of a multi-racial makeup).
Whereas, Blacks make up 13% of the American population. I would say that 29.4% is significant and qualifies the Toledo schools as having a large Black student population.

I am not "playing the race card" DS. Like most conservatives you wish to ignore the effects of race and poverty. I notice you said nothing about the family incomes.

And what percentage of the suburban schools student populations are black?


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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/27/2016 11:09:18 AM   
bounty44


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http://www.alternet.org/education/charter-school-insiders-now-admit-public-education-cant-be-remade-wall-sts-image

Alternet…gads it was difficult to even go to the site. From a philosophical perspective I might just as well go read joether’s blog or even vile critter parts’ nutsuckerisms and hit myself in the head with a hammer.

Anyway, here’s a critique on it:

quote:

Charter schools, which have been criticized for grabbing billions in taxpayer dollars with promises to reinvent public education using corporate efficiencies and values, are finding themselves under fire from industry insiders who are saying that these hyped market-based reforms don’t work.


Except they do work. Evidence shows it and the poster of the link ignores it, as does the author of the article. Charter schools educate as well, or better, for less.

quote:

The criticism comes in the wake of scandals by some of the sector’s biggest for-profit players that have given the industry a bad name.


The public school commies just don’t seem to get this---scandals happen everywhere, including public schools. There is nothing inherent in charter schools that make them more likely to incur scandals and by contrast, nothing indicting in them that necessarily disqualifies free market principles from succeeding, in spite of the occasional scandal. but by all means, if there are 6-7 thousand charter schools around the country, lets criticize the whole movement because a dozen or so have crooks running them.

quote:

“National for-profit charter school operators have increasingly been in the press lately and not for good reasons,” begins a January column by lobbyist-consultant Alex Medler on EducationPost.org. “Based on how often for-profit operators embarrass the charter sector, many are willing to say it’s time to ban them.”


Its easy to say “many” when you don’t have to actually provide evidence. There are thousands of charter schools and tens of thousands of teachers and administrators in them---just how many is “many” such that it accounts for a significant amount, a ground swell movement or a critical mass? Given that charter schools continue to grow, and parents want them, its hard to give a lot of credence to medler’s remark.

At the same time, ive mentioned elsewhere here that the charter schools are increasingly moving towards non-profit status. So the criticism is in part, null. But that said, the major difference between profit and non-profit is what the companies can do with the profits. In terms of actual practice in terms of teaching and learning, its tough to see how that difference matters. Critics would also have to show a difference in the outcomes between the two. To my knowledge, they haven’t, and certainly this article didn’t.

quote:

Nor is he referring to studies that show online charter school—the industry’s fastest-growing sector—are dogged by dropouts, poor academics and last fall’s stock price collapse of K12 Inc., the nation’s largest online charter operator. It has approximately 90,000 students enrolled in entirely Internet-delivered instruction in more than 20 states.


Stocks rise and fall in all sectors, all the time and it speaks nothing to the quality of the product being provided.

Fascinating that “e-learning” is embraced at the college level (which is full of lefties) but criticized for the scholastic level.

The link he provided says absolutely nothing about drop-outs and poor academics. We’re left to take his word for it.

quote:

He is referring to all those threads and a more basic one: “hubris” that the marketplace and all its vaunted know-how could fundamentally transform public schools and improve learning.


Except of course that they have.

quote:

“For-profits mistakenly assumed that inefficiency leads to bad schools,” he wrote. “They thought national scale and business savvy would allow them to outperform the competition. Chalk it up to outsiders’ hubris, but any school leader will tell you that running good schools is much more complicated than getting operations to fit together efficiently.” Medler added that state and local laws governing how public schools are to be run also confounded these would-be reformers. “Both the profit and quality quickly evaded most of them.”


medler’s assuming, for the sake of creating his argument, what charter schools are thinking. Is it true inefficiency necessarily leads to bad schools? No, but “inefficiency” certainly costs more doesn’t it? and again with the vague term “most”---without providing actual numbers, its meaningless. At the same time, he ironically points out how state and local laws confound reformers. That’s actually indicting on the law and the dinosaur status of the public schools.

quote:

These comments are not coming from longtime charter foes like advocates for traditional public schools, but from an industry lobbyist-consultant.


So there it is---the INSIDER, all one of him so far, and we meet one more below.

quote:

James Merriman, the CEO of the New York City Charter School Center, added his voice to the naysayer chorus when he last month told Slate.com, “You can’t make a profit and get good results… any dollar converted [to profits] from being used inefficiently in an inner-city charter school is needed in the school.”


Just to be clear again, the argument here is about profit vs non profit charters. But to be honest, im having a hard time figuring out what the heck he is saying. in any event, sorry---you can make a profit and produce good results, or millions of business owners and consumers are flat out wrong.

ironic though for the article that, if you go the new York city charter school center website, you can learn there that blacks and Hispanics are outperforming their public school counterpart. Peek here if you want to see more:

http://www.nyccharterschools.org/sites/default/files/resources/factsheet-Achievement.pdf

quote:

These statements by industry insiders about how free market tenets have not transformed public schools as promised are a notable crack in the propaganda armor surrounding the charter movement.


Only two “insiders” and no, the statements have not shown that in the least, unless you count a lack of transformation being that there are crooks on both sides of the aisle so to speak. Otherwise, they have not talked at all about outcomes.

quote:

EMO—or education management organizations—is the Wall Street-created term for firms running charter school chains—like HMO refers to health maintenance organizations in the health care world. When charters emerged in the early 1990s as a reform idea, they were envisioned as a new type of public schools that would be small, locally run, innovative and open to all students. In the two decades since, they have become an industry dominated by growing brands—some for-profit, some non-profit—and the primary mechanism for privatizing public schools and public school functions. The sector has more than 6,700 schools with 2.9 million students across the country.


Have said this before---so what? They unfolded different than the original vision (or so we are lead to believe anyway---that is, I suspect some are still quite in keeping with it), does that mean anything really? Do they still not educate kids as well, or better, for less money?

quote:

K12’s seems to be the field’s Exhibit A for the “hubris” that industry consultant Alex Medler wrote about on EducationPost.org—vastly overpromising and then underperforming. The firm is the nation’s largest provider of internet-only public schools. Its stock dropped more than 20 percent last fall after embarrassments could not be swept away. They had sub-par test scores, dwindling enrollments, and management contracts that were not renewed. That came after investors betting—and winning—that their stock would crash, and admissions by former employees, like marketing director Houston Tucker, who told Bloomberg.com that “K12 grew too fast and invested too little in instruction.”


I don’t like online education at any level, but that said, over time then, the market will adjust to that and either online charter schools will provide a better product and succeed on the strength of that, or they will go extinct. How that is a fatal criticism is beyond me.

quote:

That report identified four major areas where taxpayer funds were being diverted from academics into profit centers for owners-operators. What was most striking was the array of complex business strategies that have little to do with improving student achievement but much more to do with diverting money from classrooms, teacher salaries, real estate assets and funds obtained from selling government-backed bonds. The Center’s report is very complex and shows how many charter operators use an intentional web of interrelated for-profit and non-profit shells.


Then what the critics need to do here is show that what they are calling “diverting” is actually affecting outcomes. They don’t.

I skipped over quite a bit but im thinking that’s enough…

To use the term again, I don’t see anything mortally wounding charter schools in terms of their overall success at providing alternatives to public schools, and educating kids as well, or better, for less.

Generally speaking, the major theme of the article ended up being “we don’t like capitalism” and it all read to me like a college freshmen writing on a topic where he thinks he’s into something really big, and who wants to make a difference, but really isnt at all.

get over it comrades...



(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/27/2016 11:44:39 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

???
That report identified four major areas where taxpayer funds were being diverted from academics into profit centers for owners-operators. What was most striking was the array of complex business strategies that have little to do with improving student achievement but much more to do with diverting money from classrooms, teacher salaries, real estate assets and funds obtained from selling government-backed bonds. The Center’s report is very complex and shows how many charter operators use an intentional web of interrelated for-profit and non-profit shells.


Well, my bolshevik friend, I aint your comrade. This is pure communism.

quote:


Generally speaking, the major theme of the article ended up being “we don’t like capitalism” and it all read to me like a college freshmen writing on a topic where he thinks he’s into something really big, and who wants to make a difference, but really isnt at all.

Not generally speaking and not at all, my godless communist nutsucker. That is pure factless, pointless nutsuckerism.

quote:


To use the term again, I don’t see anything mortally wounding charter schools in terms of their overall success at providing alternatives to public schools, and educating kids as well, or better, for less.


You are in typical hallucinatory nutsuckerism, because I and others have shown with credible citations (California, and Florida for starters, but there are more, where the outcomes were decidedly worse, not as well, and not better, and not for less.

There are anecdotes (not many) where they do better, anecdotes (a bell curves worth) where they do as well, and a great many where they do worse.



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/27/2016 12:24:33 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

You provided a case that shows that professors DID NOT have the right to petition school boards or their instruments for redress


Wrong, the decision says professors not in the recognized union were NOT disabused of their rights, explicitly recognizing those rights of a union to bargain with a government entity.


It said nothing of the kind. Let me quote you

quote:

(a) Appellees have no constitutional right, either as members of the public, as state employees, or as college instructors, to force officers of the State acting in an official policymaking capacity to listen to appellees' views.



In other words - you have a right to speak on the street corner. You don't have a right to compel anyone to listen.

The case does not say a union's negotiation being the right of petition. Here's another quote: "
quote:

The Minnesota Public Employment Labor Relations Act (PELRA) authorizes state employees to bargain collectively over terms and conditions of employment.
. STATE LAW authorizes the union to negotiation with the school districts.

Get it?

State law.



(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/27/2016 12:43:57 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
And education is strictly speaking a states rights issue.

There is very little involvement from the fed. Race, creed, color, religion stuff....like that.

Most school is financed by property taxes, and colleges also might get grants and funding from the state (like state unis, and so on)......oh, there is other monies, but the fed only doles out about 10% of ALL school funding.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/27/2016 12:48:17 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

~fr~

Charter School Insiders


Nothing in your article interesting.

Yes, some charter schools make a profit. Great. So long as they educate kids better than public schools, who cares?
I *love* the fact that this takes people and money and moves it into the private domain and out the compelled domain.

Yes, some charter schools are bad. However, in places where schools are rated, (such as florida) a higher percentage of charter schools are rated A than public schools. A higher percentage are rated B than public schools.

The rest of the rant was that of a far left extremist upset that the real world was disturbing his view of how things ought to be.

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 1/27/2016 12:51:04 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 180
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