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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/27/2016 12:56:52 PM   
bounty44


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

However, in places where schools are rated, (such as florida) a higher percentage of charter schools are rated A than public schools. A higher percentage are rated B than public schools.

The rest of the rant was that of a far left extremist upset that the real world was disturbing his view of how things ought to be.


I showed that in post #106; that there wasn't acquiescence on that point, tells us for liberals, it's ultimately not about the quality of the schools, or the education of the kids, but of something else...


(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/27/2016 12:56:57 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

Of the public schools, Toledo Public has the lowest amount spent per pupil that isn't coming from the State or Federal governments.
Ottawa Hills 75.21%
Anthony Wayne 63.49%
Sylvania City 65.92%
Maumee City 63.02%
Springfield 64.28%
Oregon City 50.72%
Washington 51.69%
Toledo City 29.82%

Exactly, what I said.


Here's what you said (exactly): "Black families make up the largest ethnic group in Toledo, they have the lowest income, and the coubty spends less per pupil than in the suburban counties."

Now, considering there was zero breakdown of the "County" level of government, and all of these school districts are within the same (Lucas) County, there are no "suburban counties" involved. What's being shown, however, is that the public school district in the area with the lowest average income (we agree on that point) is taxing it's community the least and being subsidized by State/Federal governments the most. Toledo Public spends more, per pupil, than all but one other public school district in Lucas County. The get the most Federal monies. They get the most State monies. At, roughly, 70% of their $12.4k/pupil expenditure, their government dollars portion is $300 shy of all the money spent (per pupil) at Anthony Wayne (that has the lowest overall per pupil expenditure).

quote:

quote:

Blacks/African-Americans make up 30.8% of the student population (29.4% as a single race and 1.4% as part of a multi-racial makeup).

Whereas, Blacks make up 13% of the American population. I would say that 29.4% is significant and qualifies the Toledo schools as having a large Black student population.
I am not "playing the race card" DS. Like most conservatives you wish to ignore the effects of race and poverty. I notice you said nothing about the family incomes.
And what percentage of the suburban schools student populations are black?


Most of the suburban school districts (probably all, but it doesn't matter to me) have a lower percentage of black students, but that doesn't matter at all. Toledo Public spends more than all the suburban school districts, on a per pupil basis, than all but one of the suburban public schools.

How can it be chalked up to racism (and claiming this is being done to blacks is playing the race card), when the student population this is being done to is predominantly white?

According to quickfacts.census.gov, the City of Toledo has black demographic of 27.2% black (single racial makeup; no breakdown as to the make up of the multi-racial population), so it's not really outrageous that the student population be 2.2 percentage points higher.

Even if you doubled the per pupil spend and got that money solely from the State and/or Federal governments, it's still not going to improve the home environment, is it?



< Message edited by DesideriScuri -- 1/27/2016 12:58:07 PM >


_____________________________

What I support:

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Profile   Post #: 182
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/27/2016 2:16:48 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

However, in places where schools are rated, (such as florida) a higher percentage of charter schools are rated A than public schools. A higher percentage are rated B than public schools.

The rest of the rant was that of a far left extremist upset that the real world was disturbing his view of how things ought to be.


I showed that in post #106; that there wasn't acquiescence on that point, tells us for liberals, it's ultimately not about the quality of the schools, or the education of the kids, but of something else...



And nutsuckers blather, toiletlick and fraudulently strawman and cockgargle.

As I said, its a mixed bag.

http://www.prwatch.org/news/2015/09/12936/cmd-publishes-full-list-2500-closed-charter-schools
http://www.alternet.org/charter-schools-are-mired-fraud-and-failure
https://www.edreform.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/StateOfCharterSchools_CER_Dec2011-Web-1.pdf
http://www.prwatch.org/news/2015/07/12875/closed-charters-bridges-nowhere

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Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/28/2016 11:47:27 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Just to be clear again, the argument here is about profit vs non profit charters. But to be honest, im having a hard time figuring out what the heck he is saying. in any event, sorry---you can make a profit and produce good results, or millions of business owners and consumers are flat out wrong.
He is saying that there is no difference between them as far as their greedy manipulations go. Generally, charter schools are a scam. And so are digital degrees.

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Profile   Post #: 184
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/28/2016 1:04:49 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

According to quickfacts.census.gov, the City of Toledo has black demographic of 27.2% black (single racial makeup; no breakdown as to the make up of the multi-racial population), so it's not really outrageous that the student population be 2.2 percentage points higher.
According to the latest census figures for students in schools the racial make-up of Toledo students was
white 39.1%
black 40.86%
brown 11.24% (Hispanic)
70% qualify for free/reduced lunch.

The tie-in between race and poverty is pretty strong.

Toledo is listed in the 100 largest school districts in the U.S. Their total % expenditure per student is 56.61. I could find only two or three in the list with a lower per pupil expenditure.

https://ballotpedia.org/Analysis_of_spending_in_America's_largest_school_districts

Percentage of Blacks in Lucas County major cities:

1.8% Maumee
1.4% Oregon
2.7% Sylvania
27.2% Toledo
0.5% Waterville

One can conclude from the data that Race is an issue. Please, don't be naïve.

quote:

Even if you doubled the per pupil spend and got that money solely from the State and/or Federal governments, it's still not going to improve the home environment, is it?
We agree. My point is that we have kept black americans in a feudal state in our inner cities since the end of WW2 when white families and industries moved out of the major cities. Blacks have been maintained as a convenient underclass who can be falsely blamed for their own miserable, jobless conditions. Is it little wonder that black children who see no prospect of jobs see no advantage to education, and their parents the same. The cycle of racism and poverty that has persisted since the sellout of Reconstruction in 1876 actually cannot be broken until we are willing to spend state and federal dollars to incentivize industry to return to the neighborhoods. Instead, we spend enormous amounts of dollars to kill or colonize people of color around the world, and to gamble in the free market casinos. Our national priorities are self-defeating.

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Profile   Post #: 185
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/29/2016 12:51:26 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

According to quickfacts.census.gov, the City of Toledo has black demographic of 27.2% black (single racial makeup; no breakdown as to the make up of the multi-racial population), so it's not really outrageous that the student population be 2.2 percentage points higher.
According to the latest census figures for students in schools the racial make-up of Toledo students was
white 39.1%
black 40.86%
brown 11.24% (Hispanic)
70% qualify for free/reduced lunch.
The tie-in between race and poverty is pretty strong.
Toledo is listed in the 100 largest school districts in the U.S. Their total % expenditure per student is 56.61. I could find only two or three in the list with a lower per pupil expenditure.
https://ballotpedia.org/Analysis_of_spending_in_America's_largest_school_districts


You realize, don't you, that the $8,858 "per pupil" spend is $102 less than the "per student" spend of Anthony Wayne, right? Unless AW has a 99% per pupil rate, they spend less.

Unless you compare the "per pupil" spending of Lucas Co. public school districts, your "Top 100" information is interesting, but not relevant. Of those Top 100 school districts, how many have a black demographic less than Toledo's? More than Toledo?

quote:

Percentage of Blacks in Lucas County major cities:
1.8% Maumee
1.4% Oregon
2.7% Sylvania
27.2% Toledo
0.5% Waterville
One can conclude from the data that Race is an issue. Please, don't be naïve.


Race isn't an issue. Do you support forced integration?

I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason my ex (then wife) and I moved was because the schools were bad, and the city was run poorly (by our estimations). We looked at Maumee and Perrysburg (P-burg is in Wood Co, not Lucas, which is why I didn't include it in the Lucas County schools comparisons, and is separated from Maumee by the Maumee River) first because they have very good schools. The taxation in P-burg is high, and the cost of land/building in Maumee is very high (not a lot of land left to develop there), so we started looking further out, and Anthony Wayne fit what we wanted: great schools, low taxes, and not ridiculously expensive to build/live there. Additionally, we were looking at the future, as the residential portions of the AW school area are growing, meaning property values would rise through the years.

It had zero to do with race.

quote:

quote:

Even if you doubled the per pupil spend and got that money solely from the State and/or Federal governments, it's still not going to improve the home environment, is it?

We agree. My point is that we have kept black americans in a feudal state in our inner cities since the end of WW2 when white families and industries moved out of the major cities. Blacks have been maintained as a convenient underclass who can be falsely blamed for their own miserable, jobless conditions. Is it little wonder that black children who see no prospect of jobs see no advantage to education, and their parents the same. The cycle of racism and poverty that has persisted since the sellout of Reconstruction in 1876 actually cannot be broken until we are willing to spend state and federal dollars to incentivize industry to return to the neighborhoods. Instead, we spend enormous amounts of dollars to kill or colonize people of color around the world, and to gamble in the free market casinos. Our national priorities are self-defeating.


I think the "blacks as an underclass" idea is more a function of Democratic Party goals and ideals than anything. I'm not saying, necessarily, that I think the Democrat Party is intentionally keeping blacks down, but that the programs installed to help blacks end up actually hurting them more than they help. Minimum wage laws have increased black unemployment (especially among black youth). All the social welfare programs have a tendency to increase the entitlement mentality (which knows no racial boundaries).

I believe the saying is that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/29/2016 11:24:02 AM   
DominantWrestler


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Try living off minimum wage for a month and then talk to me

Until being the lowest tier worker pays more than being the lowest tier drug dealer, crime in impoverished areas will continue

< Message edited by DominantWrestler -- 1/29/2016 11:26:25 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 187
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/29/2016 1:26:30 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Unless you compare the "per pupil" spending of Lucas Co. public school districts, your "Top 100" information is interesting, but not relevant. Of those Top 100 school districts, how many have a black demographic less than Toledo's? More than Toledo?
Obviously, I will not spend my time seeking the student demographics of each of the 99 other largest school districts. But lets take the one that spends the most. NYC has a student population of over one million. The city spends 80.71% of revenue on students.
About 1.1 million students attend New York City public schools.
About 40% of students in the city's public school system live in households where a language other than English is spoken, and one-third of all New Yorkers were born in another country. The city's Department of Education translates report cards, registration forms, system-wide alerts, and documents on health and policy initiatives for parents into Spanish, French, German, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Hindi, Bengali, Urdu, Persian, Arabic, and Haitian Creole.

In the 2010-2011, Hispanics and Latino students made up 39.9% of the student population. African Americans made up 30.3% of the student population, Non-Hispanic Whites made up 14.3% and Asian American students made up 15.0% of the student populace. Native Americans made up the remaining 0.5% of the student body.[20]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Department_of_Education#Demographics

Let's review: 70.2% of NYC students are people of color (black and brown) 14.3% are white. Expenditures per student 80.71 %.

In Toledo 52.1% are students of color while 39.1% are white. Toledo manages to spend only 56.61% of revenues per student.

Why would that be? Is it possible that the Toledo Board of Education doesn't give a rat's ass about students of color? Well, maybe. Who eats the rest of the pie? Maybe Toledo needs a good community organizer. I understand there will be one available soon.

quote:

Race isn't an issue. Do you support forced integration?
Yes, I support SCOTUS decision in Brown vs. Topeka Board of Education. Yes, I supported the forced integration of schools in Mississippi and Alabama. I was among the first white teaching staff in the nearly all black district of Opa Locka, Dade County and I taught a number of years in Miami's Little Havana district. So, I was there. I saw it work, not without problems of course, but work it did. Now the charter school scam is re-segregating the schools.

quote:

I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason my ex (then wife) and I moved was because the schools were bad, and the city was run poorly


This is not about you personally. This is about our on going sin of institutional racism that began with the slave trade.

quote:

I think the "blacks as an underclass" idea is more a function of Democratic Party goals and ideals than anything. I'm not saying, necessarily, that I think the Democrat Party is intentionally keeping blacks down, but that the programs installed to help blacks end up actually hurting them more than they help. Minimum wage laws have increased black unemployment (especially among black youth). All the social welfare programs have a tendency to increase the entitlement mentality (which knows no racial boundaries).
Not only have you imbibed heavily of the liquor of upper class propaganda you have eaten of the toxic toadstool that it is the victims of racism themselves who are to blame. Bill Clinton 'reformed welfare as we knew it' but no-one built industrial plants to provide jobs. As a related aside I caught the news that Flint, Michigan does not have even one food store. And when was the last time minimum wage was improved and what amount of black jobs were lost? You speak in such generalizations to keep away truth that America is an extremely racist nation. Just look to the numbers of blacks who are incarcerated for non-violent drug possession. Look at the number of unarmed black men who are pulled aside in police stop and frisk operations; and look at the number murdered by police.

Blacks and Browns will continue to be an underclass as long as corporate America continues to outsource manufacturing jobs and as long as we continue to live the politics of fear that require an eternally increasing Defense budget; and as long as Republican legislatures in the states continue to try to infringe on the rights of blacks/browns to vote.

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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/29/2016 2:26:49 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Now the charter school scam is re-segregating the schools.

Factually not true. As for .. forced integration .. 'working' .. what exactly did it accomplish?

quote:


This is not about you personally. This is about our on going sin of institutional racism


Oh horseshit.

quote:


quote:

I think the "blacks as an underclass" idea is more a function of Democratic Party goals and ideals than anything. I'm not saying, necessarily, that I think the Democrat Party is intentionally keeping blacks down, but that the programs installed to help blacks end up actually hurting them more than they help. Minimum wage laws have increased black unemployment (especially among black youth). All the social welfare programs have a tendency to increase the entitlement mentality (which knows no racial boundaries).
Bill Clinton 'reformed welfare as we knew it' but no-one built industrial plants to provide jobs.

Its not the business of business to build business to make jobs.
Its also not the business of white people to provide jobs for black people.
Industrial plants don't open here because people can't make any money if they do. If you send a couple of hundred million dollars building a plant - you'd like to make money - something you seem to oppose at every turn.
quote:



As a related aside I caught the news that Flint, Michigan does not have even one food store.


Thats what happens when you get your education in a public school.

What do you think 'the grainery grocery' at 809 church street is?

quote:

And when was the last time minimum wage was improved and what amount of black jobs were lost?


Last month? Seattle increased minimum wage to $15, 700 people lost their jobs? http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/10/23/checking-seattles-15-minimum-wage-look-theres-the-job-losses/#3b6e75a25da4

Or take a look at the graph in the following article:http://fee.org/anythingpeaceful/new-york-orders-fast-food-workers-replaced-with-robots-kiosks-mobile-apps/

which shows there is a direct correlation between unemployment and minimum wage for people that don't finish high school.

quote:

You speak in such generalizations to keep away truth that America is an extremely racist nation.

And you're a hate-spewing idiot. That idea is such bullshit it doesn't need discussion or refutation.
quote:



Just look to the numbers of blacks who are incarcerated for non-violent drug possession.

People being in jail is evidence they are criminals, not evidence of racism.
quote:


; and look at the number murdered by police.


443? nationwide? I'm super ok with that. When you adjust for number of stops, whites are twice as likely per stop to be killed by a cop.
and I'm still super ok with that.

quote:


the politics of fear that require an eternally increasing Defense budget


Public school education biting you in the ass again.

http://www.cfr.org/defense-budget/trends-us-military-spending/p28855

Both in absolute dollars, but especially in terms of percentage of US budget, defense spending has decreased.

So much for any pretension of not being an extremist.


< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 1/29/2016 2:30:01 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/29/2016 2:32:21 PM   
Phydeaux


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Good article a liberal should try to read and understand:

The melancholy truth that America’s leftists, and the young people they exploit for political support, stubbornly refuse to learn is that the true minimum wage is zero. When the cost of labor is increased beyond its true value by government fiat, employers learn to make do with fewer workers.

The primary factor containing the damage from such market responses to increased labor cost is customer satisfaction. Beyond a certain point, it becomes impossible to cut jobs or productivity suffers too much. In a service-oriented business, such as food service, the customers have unhappy experiences at understaffed establishments and take their business elsewhere.

However, the CEO of one large restaurant chain warns that customers are now comfortable enough with automated systems to allow another huge round of job cuts in the near future. To put it simply, the government is pricing labor out of the market, and machines are standing ready to fill the gap.

The CEO in question, Ron Shaich of Panera Bread, didn’t really phrase this as a warning during his most recent quarterly earnings call. As reported by Business Insider, it was more like a confident prediction. “Labor is going to go down,” he said. “And as digital utilization goes up – like the sun comes up in the morning – it is going to continue to go up.”

“Digital utilization – you are seeing it happen in Panera today,” Shaich continued. “As it happens, it’s going to benefit larger organizations like Panera, who already have the technology in place.”

Indeed, a visitor to one of Shaich’s restaurants will immediately notice a high level of digital integration, as the “Panera 2.0” remodel sweeps across the nation. Newer Panera locations offer touch screens where customers can place their orders without speaking to wait staff. A human cashier is still available for those who prefer ordering the old-fashioned way, but the new system assumes a significant portion of the customer base will be comfortable plugging their order directly into the computer. Some locations even allow customers to order from their tables using cell phones or laptop computers.

Business Insider notes other restaurants, such as fast-food giant McDonald’s, pursuing similar automation paths. One of the early adopters was Chili’s, which put touch-screen computers at every table, allowing customers to pay their bills without human interaction, summon the wait staff for drink refills or desert orders, use points from the restaurant’s reward program for free items, and even pass the time playing games.

As with Panera, use of this system is optional, so customers can do everything with the assistance of human wait staff if they prefer, but the number of diners voluntarily using these electronic systems is providing valuable feedback to the industry. Shaich’s comments about automation reflect a growing awareness among restaurant management, and other service industry managers, that customers have grown comfortable with using digital technology at brick-and-mortar locations, perhaps in part because the explosion of e-commerce has taught them to see such systems as friendly and reliable. Experiments with such in-store automation largely failed a generation ago… but that was then, and this is now.

Business Insider cites Shaich claiming that rising labor costs were not the “explicit impetus” for Panera’s move to digital utilization. “We did our digital capabilities to give a better guest experience. It was never about labor,” he said.

But then, later in his conference call, the CEO admitted it was partially about labor, and the entire industry is thinking that way.

“All of us in the industry essentially view this as inflationary, just like if there was a broad-based increase in any commodity,” Shaich said about labor costs. “And labor is a commodity in that sense. It’s going to affect all of us, and we are all going to have to take price. That’s the reality of it, and I think it’s going to affect us all.”

Obviously, no company executive wants an expensive paradigm-shifting tech rollout to be perceived as a penny-pinching effort to replace human workers with machines. They’ll pitch their automation programs as exciting consumer-driven steps into a bright future of greater convenience, meeting the desire of young consumers to have an Amazon-style shopping experience everywhere they go.

Only after the “glorious dawn of a new digital era” pitch will they admit that, yes, they’re tired of having their profit margins shredded by socialist politicians, so they’re taking advantage of the rising digital comfort level among their customers to begin phasing out human employees. Today it’s touch screens replacing the time-consuming business of placing orders and paying bills; tomorrow it might be robot waiters. (The Business Insider piece mentions that electronics retailer Best Buy is already experimenting with using robots to move merchandise around inside its stores.)

This is a paradigm shift, and it will never be reversed — once the huge capital outlays for automation have been made, and customers have grown comfortable with it, those jobs will be gone for good. Contrary to left-wing rhetoric about “burger-flipper” jobs, young people in many demographic groups will miss these low-skill on-ramps to employment. And, unlike the banking industry and the automated teller machines President Obama once ignorantly blamed for the high unemployment rates of his presidency, these service industries won’t find new uses for the labor displaced by automation. They’re explicitly seeking ways to make do with fewer hours of high-cost, heavily burdened human labor… and, as the digital generation comes of age, such methods will be found.

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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/29/2016 3:10:36 PM   
mnottertail


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Some of the biggest cockgargling and apology for destructive capitalism I have ever heard.

One reason you are a nutsucker my communist friend is you are a corporate catamite and buy into free-market communism.

Do a little read up, and note conservatives and republicans since the FOUNDING of this country, have nurtured a Protected American Economy.

Read Alfred Ekes, Jr (St. Wrinklemeats Trade Negotiator) on the history of the American Economy.

Read Freidrich List (an economist) who was so taken with our methods, he went to Germany and had it duplicated. (and they are in fine fiscal shape compared to us).

The minimum wage in truth is what it takes to live, and that zero is what the corporate and professional managers should be paid, they are takers, not producers.

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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/29/2016 3:13:17 PM   
mnottertail


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LOL, I knew that stupid shit was fido. Public schools biting you in the ass again.

Lets look at your inflated defense dollars, and then add in the VA (also really a component of defense)
Then lets look at the public school budget, federally.

Do a heads up compare.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 192
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/29/2016 3:53:15 PM   
Phydeaux


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Once again, deliberating misleading.

The vast majority of school funding is done locally, as you well know. It was only relatively recently that a cabinet level office was created, something I oppose.
If you want to compare total education spending vs defense spending - you're going to lose that argument as well.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_education_spending_20.html Education 951 Billion; defense: 852 Billion

Feel free to post actual defense numbers anytime you want mnotter. Figures are stubborn things - they say what I said they said.

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 1/29/2016 3:57:11 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/29/2016 3:59:16 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

LOL, I knew that stupid shit was fido. Public schools biting you in the ass again.



Unusual to hear liberals bashing public schools....

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Profile   Post #: 194
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/29/2016 4:09:41 PM   
Lucylastic


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Education includes tertiary.....or higher education , not child education.childhood education is 597b


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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/29/2016 4:21:24 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Education includes tertiary.....or higher education , not child education.childhood education is 597b



So? I'm comparing education spending vs defense spending.

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Profile   Post #: 196
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/29/2016 4:25:03 PM   
Lucylastic


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The topic is public/charter schools.
Again you change goalposts to formulate bullshit.


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Profile   Post #: 197
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/29/2016 4:35:32 PM   
Phydeaux


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No actually the topic is Friedrichs vs California teacher's association - and once again you're a lying twat.
I published the education and defense figures to prove that contrary to liberals expectations defense spending is LESS than education spending. You don't like that fact. Tough.

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 1/29/2016 4:36:33 PM >

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/29/2016 4:44:52 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
Put down the mirror......
Now stop trying to think....you really cant pull it off

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(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/30/2016 3:34:40 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler
Try living off minimum wage for a month and then talk to me
Until being the lowest tier worker pays more than being the lowest tier drug dealer, crime in impoverished areas will continue


Start a thread on the minimum wage, if you'd like.

It's not really germane to this thread, though.

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What I support:

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(in reply to DominantWrestler)
Profile   Post #: 200
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