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RE: Sexual Consent Cards - 1/16/2016 6:55:25 PM   
Wayward5oul


Posts: 3314
Joined: 11/9/2014
Status: offline 		As Nookie stated, this is being done because there have recently been issues in the community, and this is one way that they are trying to combat that.

Not all consent violations are intentional; particularly in casual play situations, there is always a risk of misunderstandings between players. This is just one more way to facilitate clear negotiation and informed consent. I really don't understand why that is considered a bad thing.

Yes, I understand that this should not be necessary. But if everything was as it should be, there would be no need for protective measures that we employ everyday, like seat belts. There would be no need to put warnings on tubes of preparationH not to ingest the contents.

Fact is that venues have a responsibility toward customers' safety, and there are things that they do all the time that are expected. There is no way that they can account for all the different ways that people come into the lifestyle, what they learned about negotiation and consent, differing communication styles, etc. A responsible club does what it can to ensure positive experiences for all, and if they can think of low-profile, non-intrusive ways of providing some guidance to a mass audience at once, I would consider it neglectful not to do so.

What if, when someone first proposed the idea of dungeon monitors, people argued that it is sad that DMs were needed, that anyone who needs to be babysat or refereed while playing
has no business playing in the first place, so no one did it?

I have yet to hear of a club that operates without them. They are not just considered standard practice, but rather a requirement. And no one questions that. Many players never need to call on one. Good for them. That doesn't mean they were a bad idea.

I will never understand why some people belittle efforts of others to create safe environments, especially those serving the public in what is universally recognized as a risk-laden lifestyle. If you don't need one, then don't take one.

But if some of the problems out there are simply a matter of communication, and ways are found to address that effectively, then that cuts down on risk and everything associated with it.

Which makes it that much easier to focus on and punish the real threat-those who willfully ignore consent.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Sexual Consent Cards - 1/16/2016 7:09:12 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

I think it's a great idea, but still sad that we need them.


I think it is sad too that this is necessary. But, if strangers are just touch happy without being respectful and asking permission, then maybe this card is necessary to keep things safe and make it very clear to those socially inept on what is okay and what is not.

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Sexual Consent Cards - 1/16/2016 7:14:45 PM   
Wayward5oul


Posts: 3314
Joined: 11/9/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

I think it's a great idea, but still sad that we need them.


I think it is sad too that this is necessary. But, if strangers are just touch happy without being respectful and asking permission, then maybe this card is necessary to keep things safe and make it very clear to those socially inept on what is okay and what is not.

Yeah, the current thread about LP asking if she handled a scene right is a good example.

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Sexual Consent Cards - 1/16/2016 7:31:10 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		I hope I didn't come off as belittling the idea. It certainly wasn't my intent. Absolutely the opposite. I don't envy anyone who has to deal with an issue like this and as a way to negotiate and CYA it is very concise and workable. I've never played at a party with a stranger, but if I did I'd be fine with filling one out. I guess I should have led with that. I was just musing over how much things seemed to have changed, but are still the same.

I do think that in the long run, problem children will be a problem: until made accountable. The form may not stop the issue, but hopefully it will hold people accountable for the things they consent to do/have done.

Maybe I'm just too far removed from today's scene. I'm still thinking in terms of my experiences being non-sexual at parties. So, I'm extremely appalled at the idea of there being a spate of non-consent issues. That sounds pretty serious to me.


< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 1/16/2016 7:32:03 PM >

(in reply to Wayward5oul)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Sexual Consent Cards - 1/16/2016 8:06:15 PM   
Wayward5oul


Posts: 3314
Joined: 11/9/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

I hope I didn't come off as belittling the idea. It certainly wasn't my intent.

No, you didn't, and my comments weren't directed at you. I just clicked the reply button located under the last post, so I guess it got posted as a reply to you. But you didn't say anything that prompted my comments. It was not directed at you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
Maybe I'm just too far removed from today's scene. I'm still thinking in terms of my experiences being non-sexual at parties. So, I'm extremely appalled at the idea of there being a spate of non-consent issues. That sounds pretty serious to me.

I attend parties semi-regularly, but have never played at one. I enjoy going and watching and meeting people, and it gives me ideas and helps develop my curiosity, Up until recently, no penetration of any kind was allowed at our site, you had to remain covered in certain areas. That changed over a year ago when we moved into a new facility. But I still don't play there.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Sexual Consent Cards - 1/16/2016 8:19:50 PM   
artemiss


Posts: 88
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		I didn't mean to imply that I didn't think the cards should be implemented. I was voicing a concern that was all, something I think is worth considering.

Simply because something is agreed to, does not mean consent cannot be withdrawn. And the cards should not be allowed to be used to justify an action, but rather simply a tool in communication.

The intent of my comment got sidetracked by personal attacks.

< Message edited by artemiss -- 1/16/2016 9:00:03 PM >

(in reply to Wayward5oul)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Sexual Consent Cards - 1/16/2016 8:41:53 PM   
Wayward5oul


Posts: 3314
Joined: 11/9/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: artemiss
Simply because something is agreed to, does not mean consent cannot be withdrawn. And the cards should not be allowed to be used to justify an action, but rather simply a tool in communication.

Agreed. And judging by what I know of Nookie, I am pretty comfortable stating that she would refuse to be a part of anything that implied consent could not be withdrawn. The card is just one way to jumpstart communication . But it does not replace negotiation. Neither does it replace communication during negotiation. Nor does it cancel-out safewording.




(in reply to artemiss)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Sexual Consent Cards - 1/16/2016 9:20:12 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		I so far haven't had any problems (except once being touched non-consensually by someone I wasn't playing with). Not sure if I'd want to use the cards, but I do think they could be a useful additional tool, especially since the DM can be given a copy so they know to watch out for sexual contact if that is on the "no" list. Obviously consent can be withdrawn, and having a card doesn't mean that any random person can walk up and touch within the limits written on the card.

(in reply to Wayward5oul)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Sexual Consent Cards - 1/16/2016 10:02:51 PM   
HoneyBears


Posts: 337
Joined: 11/5/2013
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
quote:

ORIGINAL: artemiss

Simply because something is agreed to, does not mean consent cannot be withdrawn. And the cards should not be allowed to be used to justify an action, but rather simply a tool in communication.

Agreed. And judging by what I know of Nookie, I am pretty comfortable stating that she would refuse to be a part of anything that implied consent could not be withdrawn. The card is just one way to jumpstart communication . But it does not replace negotiation. Neither does it replace communication during negotiation. Nor does it cancel-out safewording.


Nobody can foresee every possible contingency no matter how well-intentioned, nor have 360-degree holographic panoramic vision.

There are invariably going to be egos getting in the way, those who get argumentative, those who always have to get in the last word whenever possible, and those who will look for loopholes wherever they may be found.

When it comes to matters of consent, playing the devil's advocate cannot hurt.

Perhaps with index-card size, these stipulations (for the benefit of the clueless) could be spelled out in small print at the bottom, NookieNotes?

(Possible Disclaimers:) [which should not be necessary in the first place for those with half a brain]
-- Implied consent can be withdrawn at any time by either party.
-- Nothing contained on this card cancels out safewording.
-- This card does not replace standardly observed play negotiation between play partners.
-- This card does not replace regular communications during such negotiations, as noted above.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Maybe I'm just too far removed from today's scene. I'm still thinking in terms of my experiences being non-sexual at parties. So, I'm extremely appalled at the idea of there being a spate of non-consent issues. That sounds pretty serious to me.

Up until recently, no penetration of any kind was allowed at our site, you had to remain covered in certain areas. That changed over a year ago when we moved into a new facility.

We must be too, and it has only been a couple of years since we attended events. Sexual contact was absolutely prohibited in any dungeon-type venue, except in private, closed-door scene rooms, at the couple's discretion.

Granted, we have never frequented swingers' clubs, or been part of any swingers' get-togethers, or the kind of fetish party where sexual contact is allowed during public play.

Then, of course, we would rather spend our time alone together.

-- Lisa & Cub

_____________________________

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(in reply to Wayward5oul)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Sexual Consent Cards - 1/16/2016 11:08:48 PM   
crumpets


Posts: 1614
Joined: 11/5/2014
From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
Status: offline 		.

(in reply to artemiss)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Sexual Consent Cards - 1/17/2016 4:36:26 AM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline 		I have a great idea-They could use color coded bandannas.

Wait, what? That's been done?

Dang....

I'm usually a pretty level headed dude, but I get downright Italian about some shit and one of those things is slaves, as in "You toucha My slave-a, I breaka your face-a"

< Message edited by Kana -- 1/17/2016 4:42:51 AM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Sexual Consent Cards - 1/17/2016 6:03:15 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		I think its a card that will have its uses, especially for random players or nervous new players. I do however, agree with a lot of what artemiss says. Play often changes course and so do 'minds'. There have been plenty of occasions when a submissives limits have changed with me during a scene.
Once something is ticked off and signed for, there is absolutely no way, as a Domme, I would allow limits, that have previously been ticked off on a card, to change mid scene. We would have to stop play and fill out a new card and I'm afraid that would kill the moment.

Have you looked at the legalities Nookie? Could such a card be used in a prosecution case or could it be used against the club in a prosecution case? Its certainly something I would be taking advice on.


_____________________________

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(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Sexual Consent Cards - 1/17/2016 6:09:09 AM   
NookieNotes


Posts: 1720
Joined: 11/10/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Hmm, I guess parties these days are more sexual than I remember. The play parties, unless held in a private home and very limited to invited guests, that I've been to had strict no penetration and only partial nudity (underwear at all times and nipples covered with type etc).

If there is a problem with non-consensual acts taking place you probably would be doing better to clean house and get rid of the sexual offenders and/or players remorse victims in your midst. I know that's easier said than done, sometimes, and barring that I can see how this card could help. I have to say I hope it does take care of the issues because that sounds like a huge headache for the group/DMs/Hosts etc.


The parties are different in various areas.

I, for one, don't do pick-up play much at all, and certainly not sexual, with people I don't know or in public. That's me.

That said, there have been instances of confusion as to what's agreed on. This is a simple card to explain "not beyond this point," to augment safe wording as needed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

As Nookie stated, this is being done because there have recently been issues in the community, and this is one way that they are trying to combat that.

Not all consent violations are intentional; particularly in casual play situations, there is always a risk of misunderstandings between players. This is just one more way to facilitate clear negotiation and informed consent. I really don't understand why that is considered a bad thing.


And these are not required. Simply there for those who are concerned.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
I do think that in the long run, problem children will be a problem: until made accountable. The form may not stop the issue, but hopefully it will hold people accountable for the things they consent to do/have done.

Maybe I'm just too far removed from today's scene. I'm still thinking in terms of my experiences being non-sexual at parties. So, I'm extremely appalled at the idea of there being a spate of non-consent issues. That sounds pretty serious to me.


The issues, have, so far, been at other events. The Venue is a new spot, and we're doing our best to put preventative measures in place, as well as plan, in case something does go wrong, how to create a safe and welcoming way to handle the reports and such.

quote:

ORIGINAL: artemiss
Simply because something is agreed to, does not mean consent cannot be withdrawn. And the cards should not be allowed to be used to justify an action, but rather simply a tool in communication.

The intent of my comment got sidetracked by personal attacks.


The cards are setting the "going in" agreements. A safe word will stop a scene. At least in the issues we've been having int he community near us, the problem is misunderstood limits, rather than whether the safe word is honored. Once a violation has happened, a safe word does not undo it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul


quote:

ORIGINAL: artemiss
Simply because something is agreed to, does not mean consent cannot be withdrawn. And the cards should not be allowed to be used to justify an action, but rather simply a tool in communication.

Agreed. And judging by what I know of Nookie, I am pretty comfortable stating that she would refuse to be a part of anything that implied consent could not be withdrawn. The card is just one way to jumpstart communication . But it does not replace negotiation. Neither does it replace communication during negotiation. Nor does it cancel-out safewording.



Although this is a good point, and may work well adding a disclaimer to the next version of the card.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HoneyBears
Perhaps with index-card size, these stipulations (for the benefit of the clueless) could be spelled out in small print at the bottom, NookieNotes?

(Possible Disclaimers:) [which should not be necessary in the first place for those with half a brain]
-- Implied consent can be withdrawn at any time by either party.
-- Nothing contained on this card cancels out safewording.
-- This card does not replace standardly observed play negotiation between play partners.
-- This card does not replace regular communications during such negotiations, as noted above.


Yes! Thank you!

I love crowdsourcing! *smiles*

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
I'm usually a pretty level headed dude, but I get downright Italian about some shit and one of those things is slaves, as in "You toucha My slave-a, I breaka your face-a"


These are for negotiated and agreed upon scenes, to avoid very specific communication related to sexual contact. Not non-consensual touching of something that isn't yours without permission.

Just to be clear.

_____________________________

Nookie
--
https://datingkinky.com

I Write! A few of my books on Amazon: http://amazon.com/author/msnnotes

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Sexual Consent Cards - 1/17/2016 6:16:40 AM   
SlaveLucille


Posts: 12
Joined: 1/17/2016
Status: offline 		Since when have folks needed a card to give sexual consent? This world is getting weird for sure.

(in reply to artemiss)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Sexual Consent Cards - 1/17/2016 6:17:34 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		I just took another look at the card and noticed it has a witnesses signature space. It doesn't say anywhere on the card about the witness not being responsible for overseeing what takes place. You really do need to thoroughly think out a small print and get them to sign that small print to say they have read it.
Your club can not be responsible for someone not abiding by the card rules.
Your witness can not take responsibility for someone not abiding by the card rules.
This card is only to be used as a clear guideline of what is and is not permitted during play.
If the card rules change mid play a DM must be fully notified and able to satisfy herself that both parties wish to discard the card. The card then becomes null and void.
Breaking the rules of this card is taken seriously and could result in eviction from the club or find themselves part of a criminal investigation.

If you don't do this, you could land yourself in a whole heap of trouble.

< Message edited by MariaB -- 1/17/2016 6:18:46 AM >

_____________________________

My store is http://e-stimstore.com

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Sexual Consent Cards - 1/17/2016 6:42:31 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
It amazes me what some people think grown ups need. I think I would give up on life if I ever was so unable to communicate that I needed flash cards.

I can see your position. Being that you are a very good communicator, having a good field of experience in this area, and being a strong personality, you wouldn't need something like this.

However, after reading some of the things that have been happening for the particular geographic location, there have been some problems. (Have to say a word here. Fet is an amazing resource if a person is interested in reading about issues that other areas face and how they are dealing with them. In that sense, it can be a great learning tool.) The question then becomes how to avoid the same problems from happening.

To me, that becomes something isn't working right, so what can be done for improvements, or hopefully, eliminate the problems all together? I'm kind of big on classes about negotiations, myself. A lot of experienced people shouldn't need them but most communities these days are always dealing with new people, so it's always good to have those classes in the rotation.

Still, the idea here is to be looking for solutions or how to improve the success rate in reducing the problems. If this is an idea that works or helps, it's a positive.




_____________________________

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Sexual Consent Cards - 1/17/2016 7:01:41 AM   
Wayward5oul


Posts: 3314
Joined: 11/9/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

I just took another look at the card and noticed it has a witnesses signature space. It doesn't say anywhere on the card about the witness not being responsible for overseeing what takes place. You really do need to thoroughly think out a small print and get them to sign that small print to say they have read it.
Your club can not be responsible for someone not abiding by the card rules.
Your witness can not take responsibility for someone not abiding by the card rules.
This card is only to be used as a clear guideline of what is and is not permitted during play.
If the card rules change mid play a DM must be fully notified and able to satisfy herself that both parties wish to discard the card. The card then becomes null and void.
Breaking the rules of this card is taken seriously and could result in eviction from the club or find themselves part of a criminal investigation.

If you don't do this, you could land yourself in a whole heap of trouble.

Nookie, I would agree that everything said above is worth considering. Are you putting these out as "suggestions" to aid negotiations, and if so, is that clear? Do participants get the impression that this holds some sort of legal status if there are signatures and witnesses involved?

How can the club ensure that they do not get caught up in liability issues because of how the card can be perceived?

I think it can be done, but it is a very important consideration that you want to deal with at the beginning, not after someone tries to use it against the club. This is not one of those things that you can afford to learn by trial and error.

(in reply to MariaB)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Sexual Consent Cards - 1/17/2016 7:13:16 AM   
Cell


Posts: 409
Status: offline 		I'm wondering, do the people that visit these clubs get any kind of introduction etc? Like does anyone talk to them about basic etiquette?
Speaking as someone who doesn't attend kink clubs, if I were to walk in off the street and see naked people tied up, being played with and maybe sexual stuff going on, I don't think it would be my fault if I didn't know which way was up =|
I mean, theres probably a heap of terms like master, slave, submissive, dominant being thrown around, half the people on here can't even agree what they mean or what the conventions around them are... is there a sign up saying look but don't touch?
It's funny how a lot of you seem to think it's common sense, but with the amount of fantasy floating around with the fact regarding BDSM... Cutting some slack is probably a good idea in some cases.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Sexual Consent Cards - 1/17/2016 7:25:32 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cell


It's funny how a lot of you seem to think it's common sense, but with the amount of fantasy floating around with the fact regarding BDSM... Cutting some slack is probably a good idea in some cases.

Oh No!
This is again akin to men touching women because she's dress slutty, so she's asking for it.

Just because a woman is naked and being played with in a kink clubs, means you can touch her?

I mean, I seriously don't understand this at all!

But I hope what you are really saying is, people are gonna be idiots, it's unavoidable, so we need to keep reminding them about the obvious, no touching a stranger without their permission!
As it was mentioned in the special card that nookie created thread. This is sad that we need to remind people about basic etiquette. Basic Universal Human etiquette.


< Message edited by Greta75 -- 1/17/2016 7:26:00 AM >

(in reply to Cell)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Sexual Consent Cards - 1/17/2016 7:29:52 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cell

I'm wondering, do the people that visit these clubs get any kind of introduction etc? Like does anyone talk to them about basic etiquette?
Speaking as someone who doesn't attend kink clubs, if I were to walk in off the street and see naked people tied up, being played with and maybe sexual stuff going on, I don't think it would be my fault if I didn't know which way was up =|
I mean, theres probably a heap of terms like master, slave, submissive, dominant being thrown around, half the people on here can't even agree what they mean or what the conventions around them are... is there a sign up saying look but don't touch?
It's funny how a lot of you seem to think it's common sense, but with the amount of fantasy floating around with the fact regarding BDSM... Cutting some slack is probably a good idea in some cases.


I can only speak for the UK. Its normal for fetish and BDSM clubs to have a list of simple rules and protocols. When we ran a club, we had these up on our website, on the wall at the club and on a pamphlet given out and signed before they could become a member.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Cell)
Profile   Post #: 40
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