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RE: Charlie Hebdo racist cartoon. - 1/17/2016 6:00:07 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Is incredible that anyone could use the death of a three year old boy in a cartoon.
The magazine is a disgrace to itself and to free speech. Free speech is precious but not as precious as a young boys life.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/12098437/Charlie-Hebdo-criticised-over-racist-cartoon-portraying-Aylan-Kurdi-as-an-adult-sex-pest.html

Free speech includes the speech (or images) you don't want to hear (or see).

Doesn't mean they aren't hate speech and we all have to agree with some sick bastard's agenda, our right to protest against that shit is also free speech

Free speech is more about speech, images, writings, etc. that you don't want to hear than it is about stuff you want to hear (both of those categories are subjectively determined by each individual). If one has the right to free speech and uses it to pronounce something unpopular, others have the right to free speech to denounce it.

LC, I agree completely with your first response. I do think the whole PC movement reduces the likelihood of a person to show what a true d-bag he/she is, too (a big part of why I tend to lean anti-PC).

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(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 41

RE: Charlie Hebdo racist cartoon. - 1/17/2016 6:08:23 AM

Greta75

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

And who is to say that whatever you propose is any better than what they already have??

You are just swapping one religious dictatorship for another.

It's not dictatorship when they can choose their religion. If I tell a christian that Christianity is false, which I debate Christians about it all my life. They can choose to stay or go. Actually alot of Christians are very secure in their beliefs and welcome the debate.

Now, you try debating most Muslims, they start accusing you of hate speech.

Also the other thing is. When you are accepting Refugees from a country that would kill Muslims who wants to convert out of their religion. I think it makes perfect sense to make it a rule for them to convert out to seek sanctuary in another country which is not a Muslim country.
1) It gives them a legitimate reason to convert out without being put to death
2) They can always convert back after settling in, as after all, non-muslim countries does allow freedom of religion, the point is, what we would have done here, is given them a choice THEY NEVER HAD, they need to convert out first, and then choose their religion again after a waiting period, and some compulsory information courses on various religions, including their own
3) It will help them fit in better to new cultures.

I would just suggest, they give alternative religions a chance and also listen to why Muhammad may not have been a legit prophet. I think my plan is extremely fair. And I won't be surprise many Muslims won't convert back in.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 1/17/2016 6:16:58 AM >

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 42

RE: Charlie Hebdo racist cartoon. - 1/17/2016 6:12:06 AM

Lucylastic

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snorts
you really dont have a fuckin clue do you

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(in reply to Greta75)

Post #: 43

RE: Charlie Hebdo racist cartoon. - 1/17/2016 6:13:34 AM

Greta75

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Why are we defending a religion that prevents their own muslims from choosing their religion again?

I think all of you are the crazy ones!

Anyway, I've already said, my solution will never be implemented by the world. And you guys accuse me of not understanding how the world works.

I clearly understand how the world works, that's why I say my plan will never be implemented by the world.

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Post #: 44

RE: Charlie Hebdo racist cartoon. - 1/17/2016 6:19:36 AM

freedomdwarf1

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It won't work because you fail to understand how any religion works - let alone one as extreme as Islam.

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(in reply to Greta75)

Post #: 45

RE: Charlie Hebdo racist cartoon. - 1/17/2016 6:20:42 AM

DominantWrestler

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

Do you realise Muslims are always soooo touchy and feelly about Muhammad, because there are enough holes in that umbrella to completely flood them. And they are trying to keep people from questioning too much or talking about him.

Whereas you can mock Jesus all you want, and Christians are secure about it?

There lies the big weakness. I believe that speaks huge insecurity in doubts in Muslims about Muhammed, as they fear they cannot defend him. But everytime anybody dares question Muhammad. Someone gets killed. So, it's a problem and they are covering a big weakness that could collapse their entire religion.

Have you noticed the outcry of the religious right in America? Have you read much of the Qu'ran? The basis for violence is much akin to the logic used for the crusades. It is a contortion of the original religion in much the same way Dogma has taken root in Christianity

(in reply to Greta75)

Post #: 46

RE: Charlie Hebdo racist cartoon. - 1/17/2016 6:24:40 AM

Greta75

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler
Have you noticed the outcry of the religious right in America? Have you read much of the Qu'ran? The basis for violence is much akin to the logic used for the crusades. It is a contortion of the original religion in much the same way Dogma has taken root in Christianity

I really wish people will stop bringing up the crusades, because it wasn't lead by Jesus. Jesus would not have lead the crusade according to his personality as described in the bible.

But Muhammad was the role model, the actual prophet. And I will refer to Jesus as a prophet, because In Islam, Jesus is considered a prophet of God too. So both exists in the Muslim universe. Now if only Muslims stop believing in Muhammed being an authentic prophet, they could fall back on Jesus. That would be good. There is less war mongering stories for them to follow in Jesus life story. I truly believe they just need a better role model.

(in reply to DominantWrestler)

Post #: 47

RE: Charlie Hebdo racist cartoon. - 1/17/2016 6:29:18 AM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

Why are we defending a religion that prevents their own muslims from choosing their religion again?

I think all of you are the crazy ones!

Anyway, I've already said, my solution will never be implemented by the world. And you guys accuse me of not understanding how the world works.

I clearly understand how the world works, that's why I say my plan will never be implemented by the world.

Defending? no, you can call it that if you want, just up your ignorance level again.
Just pointing out that you are just as dumb as terrorists.
You can try and pass it over as "defending"
I find any fanatic as dangerous as any other.

YOU are just as bad an any other person looking for bloodshed to annihilate a religion or attempt to.
There's one thing to being crazy and entirely another to think you can convince/force people to change their beliefs by bloodshed.
The spanish inquisition didnt really change protestants or heathens into catholicism
And the Protestants didnt change catholics
The nazis tried amongst other things to annihilate the jewish people in large parts of europe.
We still have catholics, protestants, jews, you are fucking nuts if you think that anyone is going to be able to kill off islam
And fucking ignorant to think you can just wipe out a billion people.

Oh and freedom of religion is law of the land.

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(in reply to Greta75)

Post #: 48

RE: Charlie Hebdo racist cartoon. - 1/17/2016 6:30:39 AM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler
Have you noticed the outcry of the religious right in America? Have you read much of the Qu'ran? The basis for violence is much akin to the logic used for the crusades. It is a contortion of the original religion in much the same way Dogma has taken root in Christianity

I really wish people will stop bringing up the crusades, because it wasn't lead by Jesus. Jesus would not have lead the crusade according to his personality as described in the bible.

But Muhammad was the role model, the actual prophet. And I will refer to Jesus as a prophet, because In Islam, Jesus is considered a prophet of God too. So both exists in the Muslim universe. Now if only Muslims stop believing in Muhammed being an authentic prophet, they could fall back on Jesus. That would be good. There is less war mongering stories for them to follow in Jesus life story. I truly believe they just need a better role model.

Now if only Greta would step out into the real world......

If you believe in what the bible says, you are just as bad as those who believe the Qur'an.
Your utopian world just doesn't exist. It really doesn't.

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(in reply to Greta75)

Post #: 49

RE: Charlie Hebdo racist cartoon. - 1/17/2016 6:32:58 AM

Greta75

Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
And fucking ignorant to think you can just wipe out a billion people.

Jew is a race.

Muslim is not race. Please do not confuse the issue.

Discrediting a belief system is not wiping out a billion people. You would bring freedom to a billion people who will finally have choice.

As with Nazism, we discredited it. It was a belief system that promoted negative beliefs and the world discredited it and condemned it. There are fewer Nazis in the world today. Almost miniscue. When Nazism was discredited, the world brought freedom to Jews, who the Nazis were oppressing.

It's possible. And I see Islam as oppressing people into being Muslims. They have no choice, those born in Muslim countries.

I know because you guys are in a western world where freedom of religion is assured to everyone, but none of those Muslims were given that same freedom in their Islamic Politically runned system. I don't know why you are all in denial about that.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 1/17/2016 6:37:18 AM >

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Post #: 50

RE: Charlie Hebdo racist cartoon. - 1/17/2016 6:34:15 AM

Greta75

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Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Now if only Greta would step out into the real world......

If you believe in what the bible says, you are just as bad as those who believe the Qur'an.
Your utopian world just doesn't exist. It really doesn't.

I think all religious text are man-made and are all fairy tales.

But Muslims believe in Jesus. That's a fact. And that's the bridge.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 51

RE: Charlie Hebdo racist cartoon. - 1/17/2016 6:37:42 AM

Lucylastic

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where did I mention race???
Judaism is actually a religion too.
While dna may points to it as a "race" that is NEW dna information. less than three years old...doesnt speak or prove anything but you are a fool

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(in reply to Greta75)

Post #: 52

RE: Charlie Hebdo racist cartoon. - 1/17/2016 6:39:27 AM

Greta75

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

where did I mention race???
Judaism is actually a religion too.
While dna may points to it as a "race" that is NEW dna information. less than three years old...doesnt speak or prove anything but you are a fool

Yes, but in Nazi regime, they were prosecuting Jewish people because of their race. Not any race can be Jewish, they need to have Jewish women blood. But ALL races can be Muslims.

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Post #: 53

RE: Charlie Hebdo racist cartoon. - 1/17/2016 6:40:25 AM

PeonForHer

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Joined: 9/27/2008
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FR

You don't have to get rid of a religion - any religion. All you have to do is, bit by bit, cover it in oil so it slots in better. As people find their lives more congenial in this or that society, with its latest freedoms and its burgeoning economy, they begin to reinterpret, massage, or outright ignore more and more of their holy books such that said holy books fit better with people's more comfy lives. This bit of the relevant holy book is newly seen to be central; that bit - once crucial - is now relegated to the periphery. That's what happened to Christianity (and Islam, too, in most parts of the world). The jagged edges in the Bible and the Koran got sanded away, without people ever having to say they were 'no longer Christians', or 'no longer Muslims'. That's how you do it.

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(in reply to Greta75)

Post #: 54

RE: Charlie Hebdo racist cartoon. - 1/17/2016 6:43:35 AM

freedomdwarf1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Now if only Greta would step out into the real world......

If you believe in what the bible says, you are just as bad as those who believe the Qur'an.
Your utopian world just doesn't exist. It really doesn't.

I think all religious text are man-made and are all fairy tales.

But Muslims believe in Jesus. That's a fact. And that's the bridge.

If that were the case, both Shiite and Sunni would rally behind the one man that is common to both.
But they don't. And there is your problem.
They acknowledge that he exists - but that is as far as it goes.
They do not "believe" in him or follow him like they believe in Allah or Mohamed.
That is why they believe in Islam and are not christians.
A simple fact that seems to escape you.

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(in reply to Greta75)

Post #: 55

RE: Charlie Hebdo racist cartoon. - 1/17/2016 6:44:02 AM

Greta75

Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

You don't have to get rid of a religion - any religion. All you have to do is, bit by bit, cover it in oil so it slots in better. As people find their lives more congenial in this or that society, with its latest freedoms and its burgeoning economy, they begin to reinterpret, massage, or outright ignore more and more of their holy books such that said holy books fit better with people's more comfy lives. This bit of the relevant holy book is newly seen to be central; that bit - once crucial - is now relegated to the periphery. That's what happened to Christianity (and Islam, too, in most parts of the world). The jagged edges in the Bible and the Koran got sanded away, without people ever having to say they were 'no longer Christians', or 'no longer Muslims'. That's how you do it.

How do you solve the problem of Muslims living in Muslim countries unable to convert out of Islam? You solution works only in the western world. People who grew up in Western world will also adopt western value and if they find that they like it, they may find it incompatible with Islam. It's an environment where it's more friendly to ditch it.
But it doesn't save the Muslims in Muslim countries.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 56

RE: Charlie Hebdo racist cartoon. - 1/17/2016 6:49:54 AM

Greta75

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
If that were the case, both Shiite and Sunni would rally behind the one man that is common to both.
But they don't. And there is your problem.
They acknowledge that he exists - but that is as far as it goes.
They do not "believe" in him or follow him like they believe in Allah or Mohamed.
That is why they believe in Islam and are not christians.
A simple fact that seems to escape you.

They completely believe in Jesus. The part they do not believe is that, his the son of God, or he is God, like the Christian believes.

Prior to Muhammed, Muslims believe that, Jesus was one of the prophets sent by God for them to follow. And Muhammed was the last and final prophet that was sent.

They really do believe in Jesus, All Muslims do. They just disagree with the new testament claiming he was the son of God or God himself in human form. They believe in his miracles and everything, because he was God's Prophet. So that's why they aren't Christians.

IF Muhammed was discredited as just an ordinary human who wasn't a prophet. It still does not discredit Jesus and the miracles that happen in his time where they believed to be real. It only means Muhammed has lied to them that Jesus was just an ordinary prophet like himself.

As to why Muslims are killing each other as well. Both believe in different interpretation of Muhammed's teachings. Just like Christians have their denomination. But getting both parties to follow Jesus, may also make them like Catholic and Protestants, but it will still be better.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 1/17/2016 6:53:11 AM >

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 57

RE: Charlie Hebdo racist cartoon. - 1/17/2016 6:54:47 AM

freedomdwarf1

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You really have no clue Greta. You really don't.

The two factions have nothing to do with different teachings but the belief in who should have followed the original prophet and thus be in charge of religious teachings.

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Post #: 58

RE: Charlie Hebdo racist cartoon. - 1/17/2016 7:03:29 AM

Greta75

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
You really have no clue Greta. You really don't.
The two factions have nothing to do with different teachings but the belief in who should have followed the original prophet and thus be in charge of religious teachings.

There are clearly differences in their interpretation of the religious teachings for them to unhappy with each other and fighting who should be the authentic one. End of the day, if Muhammed is exposed as a false prophet, their war with each other will be over, since Muhammed is now a fake. After all, the story about Jesus not being the son of God and just an ordinary prophet was invented by muhammed himself. But yet muhammed believed in Jesus enough to mention that Jesus is real. Because back then, Muslims followed Jesus. He had to convince these people Jesus isn't a God, just another prophet. And that he was the final prophet sent after Jesus to give them God's final instructions, message, whatever.

If you read more debates between Muslims and Christians online, very lengthy reads, but you will see, they even debate things about how come when Jesus was a Prophet, he was able to have the power of God to power those miracles and when Muhammed was Prophet, he wasn't bless with the same powers. What amazes me, I've never seen any Muslim deny that all that "magic" Jesus did was false. They actually explain why Jesus has powers and Muhammed did not have powers.

It's all very interesting really, alot of them respect and really believe in Jesus. That's why I genuinely see the bridge.

When Muhammed was trying to establish Islam. He must have realise the respect and reverence these people had for Jesus, so he had to roll with it, because for him to try to discredit Jesus will make his Islamisation plan completely unsuccessful to convert Christians that his practically the "third testament" aka the Quran. So fortunately, Jesus is a revered and respected prophet in the Islamic world till today.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 1/17/2016 7:17:01 AM >

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Post #: 59

RE: Charlie Hebdo racist cartoon. - 1/17/2016 7:44:47 AM

joether

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Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Facepalm as always with you, Greta. No, we just need people to stop being Islamist terrorists.

I don't know why everybody is in denial about Islamist Terrorism came from the Quran?? Those beliefs originated from there! We shouldn't be supporting those beliefs!
To me, Muslims also have a choice to pick and choose what they want to follow in that book. All the more important to acknowledge the book is evil teachings. So when they make the choice, it is clear what is bad in the book and what is good. Just like Christians. Christians get condemned to high heaven about their bible and negative things in there. Makes Christians more peaceful and make them stick to the kinder verses.

Same needs to be done towards the Muslims.

Christians in this nation are just like Muslims when it comes to committing great evils upon the people: kept from doing such by the US Government. That big government that so many whom would do such things, keeps them from doing it. There are plenty of 'christian' individuals and groups that would use terror and fear onto other people if the US Government were not in operation. They would go after anyone whom did not convert to their way of thinking. In essence, become exactly what those extremists Muslims have in parts of Iraq and Syrian now called ISIS. ISIS could flourish because the government in those areas is neither big nor powerful.

But we have extreme 'christian' groups and individuals here in the states. And the US Government keeps them on a very short leash. The moment anyone gets out of line, they are dragged to a court house to face charges. So these 'christians' have everything to gain by convincing people that the US Government should be made very limited and not so powerful as it exists now.

(in reply to Greta75)

Post #: 60

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