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“APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/17/2016 1:57:17 PM   
Aylee


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quote:


Here's the setup.

San Bernardino killer Syed Rizwan Farook owned an iPhone 5c, which may have been used -- probably was used -- in planning and perhaps even executing the holiday party terror attack with his wife, Tashfeen Malik.

That iPhone 5c, just like any other up-to-do-date iOS or Android smartphone, has disc-level encryption baked into the OS for users who want that level of privacy, for good or for ill.

Yesterday,U.S. Magistrate Judge Sheri Pym ordered Apple to bypass the phone's security functions, and furthermore "to provide related technical assistance and to build special software that would essentially act as a skeleton key capable of unlocking the phone."

Here's what happened next:

Hours later, in a statement by its chief executive, Timothy D. Cook, Apple announced its refusal to comply. The move sets up a legal showdown between the company, which says it is eager to protect the privacy of its customers, and the law enforcement authorities, who assert that new encryption technologies hamper their ability to prevent and solve crime.

In his statement, Mr. Cook called the court order an “unprecedented step” by the federal government. “We oppose this order, which has implications far beyond the legal case at hand,” he wrote.

The Justice Department did not immediately respond publicly to Apple’s resistance.

The F.B.I. said its experts had been unable to access data on the iPhone 5c and that only Apple could bypass its security features. F.B.I. experts have said they risk losing the data permanently after 10 failed attempts to enter the password because of the phone’s security features.

The Justice Department had secured a search warrant for the phone, owned by Mr. Farook’s former employer, the San Bernardino County Department of Public Health, which consented to the search.

Because Apple declined to voluntarily provide, in essence, the “keys” to its encryption technology, federal prosecutors said they saw little choice but to get a judge to compel Apple’s assistance.

Mr. Cook said the order amounted to creating a “back door” to bypass Apple’s strong encryption standards — “something we simply do not have, and something we consider too dangerous to create.”



https://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2016/02/17/apple-to-judge-drop-dead/

I do not have any special love for Apple, but thumbs up to them.


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RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/17/2016 2:01:11 PM   
DaddySatyr


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If the request from the FBI had been a one time (or, if needed in the future; a case-by-case basis), I would be excoriating Apple.

However, the request was (essentially): "Apple, build us a back door so that we can get into ANY IPhone out there."

I, also, applaud Apple.



Michael


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RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/17/2016 2:21:08 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


If the request from the FBI had been a one time (or, if needed in the future; a case-by-case basis), I would be excoriating Apple.

However, the request was (essentially): "Apple, build us a back door so that we can get into ANY IPhone out there."

I, also, applaud Apple.



Michael



Even if they created something for a "one time" use, the code would be leaked putting every iPhone at risk. (I have a bar of latinum that says 30 minutes and it would be on 4chan.)

Also, when did it become okay to subpoena people/companies to work without compensation? How many man-hours and resources would it take Apple to create this for the Feds?

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RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/17/2016 2:24:01 PM   
mnottertail


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Uh, they actually have the code now, and have had since they made the phones, and pods.

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RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/17/2016 2:43:42 PM   
JVoV


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It amazes me that we spend so much on national security every year, yet our government's agencies can't even hack into an iPhone.

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RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/17/2016 2:59:05 PM   
Phydeaux


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I, for one, hope that apple gets stomped.

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RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/17/2016 5:27:50 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I, for one, hope that apple gets stomped.




To what extent can/should the government reasonably compel a private party to provide services they don't wish to provide?

We are not talking about 5 minutes worth of work. They are being asked to write a new OS for the phone. One that will, of course, be leaked in short time. This reduces Apple's security, takes away from their own R&D and damages their name. How much is this going to cost the taxpayer? I certainly don't want to pay for it.

I am not a technical wizard so I am actually a bit unsure how they will get the new OS to upload to the phone on an automatic update, without unlocking it with the passcode.

I will also point out that I do NOT trust the different alphabet groups to have access to such an OS and to use it for "good." It seems to be just one more step towards a police state.


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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

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RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/17/2016 6:30:05 PM   
MrRodgers


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Even though this is clearly yet another step toward the 4th Reich, you are a traitor to your country that built at least part of its exceptionalism on just that part of the constitution that protects against such carte blanch invasion of it...if you don't succumb to the govt.

The timing is fortuitous as we know that Scalia would rule against Apple in favor of the state. Scalia was Bork...just shorter. I mean wan't there a judge somewhere, sometime that said that Italians shouldn't go to the Univ. of Texas ?

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RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/17/2016 7:12:24 PM   
Wayward5oul


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I am torn on this.

On one hand, the whole issue of national security, dealing with known terrorists, etc...I can't help but want to give some latitude here.

I don't believe for a second that Apple doesn't know how to get into it.

Besides, my understanding is that the phone was a company phone issued to him as an employee. It was not his private property. The company he worked for should have the capability to get into it if they so desire. If the company gives the FBI permission to access the phone, that's their right. If the company can't access it themselves, the manufacturer should provide that service.


On the other hand, yeah if people know for sure that that device can be hacked, someone will get that info. From there it is anybody's game. And that just doesn't sit right with me.

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RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/17/2016 7:33:17 PM   
ifmaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Uh, they actually have the code now, and have had since they made the phones, and pods.


Having the code to an AES encryption algorithm does not mean one can decrypt anything that uses AES. Apple does not have the encryption keys used to encrypt a phone. It's no different than encrypting your harddrive and forgetting the password -- Microsoft (or Apple, or Red Hat, or whomever) can't help you restore because of the encryption.


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RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/17/2016 7:45:19 PM   
ifmaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

It amazes me that we spend so much on national security every year, yet our government's agencies can't even hack into an iPhone.


I think that's downplaying the situation tremendously. A more appropriate jab would be: It amazes me that we spend so much on national security every year, yet our government's agencies can't even hack RSA or AES encryption. Of course this statement ignores the fact that the government itself routinely uses AES and RSA encryption as they consider it (with the proper key) "unbreakable", or at least so staggeringly expensive/time consuming as to make it unbreakable.

A 128-bit AES key could take the age of the universe (and then some) to brute force. Try to decrypt this in your spare time:

quote:


Y7AZXmXae5FxNu6IXmwyTbzDhplRezFO4iXqgJeVIXPta3vRS+redRbIKD83ybbksNuqfrTRVnJ2+IoreT+log==


I'll give you a hint that an attacker may not have: the first 16 characters of the md5sum of "encryption is awesome".

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RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/17/2016 7:54:36 PM   
ifmaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

I am torn on this.

On one hand, the whole issue of national security, dealing with known terrorists, etc...I can't help but want to give some latitude here.

I don't believe for a second that Apple doesn't know how to get into it.


Depending on how Apple handles phone encryption they may not ever see the encryption keys.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
Besides, my understanding is that the phone was a company phone issued to him as an employee. It was not his private property. The company he worked for should have the capability to get into it if they so desire. If the company gives the FBI permission to access the phone, that's their right. If the company can't access it themselves, the manufacturer should provide that service.
...


Phones don't care if they're company issued or not and I don't know of any company that encrypts their employee's phones; usually it's up to the employee to encrypt the phone and pick a proper passphrase. Thus only the employee has the decryption key needed to access the phone.


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RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/17/2016 7:57:32 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


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Good for Apple.

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RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/17/2016 8:12:12 PM   
Wayward5oul


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz
Depending on how Apple handles phone encryption they may not ever see the encryption keys.


I will be the first to admit I know nothing about this kind of stuff. This is more of a somewhat irrational belief that I have that the government and big corporations like this can do shit that we wouldn't believe, so it is hard for me to imagine that they can't break into their own equipment.
quote:


Phones don't care if they're company issued or not and I don't know of any company that encrypts their employee's phones; usually it's up to the employee to encrypt the phone and pick a proper passphrase. Thus only the employee has the decryption key needed to access the phone.

I understand that. I was looking at it more from the client angle, where in situations like this employers 'own' anything on that phone, and would either have the capability of accessing anything of theirs, or at a minimum have an agreement with the manufacturer to do so. A master key, a backdoor built in, something along those lines. Something I would expect were I to purchase such equipment for work.

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RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/17/2016 8:21:46 PM   
ifmaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul


quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz
Depending on how Apple handles phone encryption they may not ever see the encryption keys.


I will be the first to admit I know nothing about this kind of stuff. This is more of a somewhat irrational belief that I have that the government and big corporations like this can do shit that we wouldn't believe, so it is hard for me to imagine that they can't break into their own equipment.


Governments have an abundance of computational power at their disposal but it is still incredibly difficult to brute force AES. RSA is even more complicated. Allegedly the NSA has figured out a way to 'crack' the Diffie-Hellman key exchange to potentially intercept VPN, SSL/TLS, and SSH-style traffic but that's different than AES/RSA encryption as it relates to harddrives or storage.

This is the most likely outcome of a harddrive or storage system being encrypted and the owner still being alive to decrypt.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
quote:


Phones don't care if they're company issued or not and I don't know of any company that encrypts their employee's phones; usually it's up to the employee to encrypt the phone and pick a proper passphrase. Thus only the employee has the decryption key needed to access the phone.

I understand that. I was looking at it more from the client angle, where in situations like this employers 'own' anything on that phone, and would either have the capability of accessing anything of theirs, or at a minimum have an agreement with the manufacturer to do so. A master key, a backdoor built in, something along those lines. Something I would expect were I to purchase such equipment for work.


Master keys and built-in backdoors would compromise everyone, not just nosey companies. Usually companies don't have a direct relationship with the phone manufacturers as they buy phones through their chosen wireless provider (who is even less trustworthy than a phone manufacturer).

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RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/17/2016 9:14:26 PM   
kdsub


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He will comply or go to jail... It may take some time but it will happen...and it should.

But

There is a compromise.... All agree Apple has the capability to comply... So instead of giving up the decryption software.. Just allow Apple to decrypt the information on the phone and give it over to the Fbi... This could be done with FBI observers to keep the information integrity . What's the big deal?

The FBI may have legal information to keep us safe but the software remains with Apple not the government.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/17/2016 9:15:36 PM >


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RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/17/2016 9:24:56 PM   
ifmaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
...
There is a compromise.... All agree Apple has the capability to comply... So instead of giving up the decryption software.. Just allow Apple to decrypt the information on the phone and give it over to the Fbi... This could be done with FBI observers to keep the information integrity . What's the big deal?
...


Everyone does NOT agree.

ETA: The government is attempting to force Apple to write custom software that bypasses the lockout period and auto-erase on iPhones. Without this custom software, the FBI would spend roughly 5 years attempting all the possible pincode combinations to unlock the phone. The government has cited 18th century law, the All Writs Act, to compel Apple to write this software. "The ramifications of such a precedent could be tremendous. If the government can compel Apple to provide custom software, why can’t they compel Facebook to customize analytics that predicts the criminality of their user base?"


< Message edited by ifmaz -- 2/17/2016 9:55:48 PM >

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RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/17/2016 11:33:20 PM   
Phydeaux


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I don't believe in the compunction to labor either. However, for this one instance apple can be forced to testify about methods, algorythmns etc. And since apple has a password reset on every device I think they can be compelled to provide it.

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RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 6:59:05 AM   
mnottertail


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The legal sort of wrangling aside, the truth of the matter is two things which should provide a governor to the hallucinations.

1) Apple already has the program, and has had it since they were built.
2) and probably more importantly, the government can get into that encrypted phone and in the corporate panties of Apple (and has already done so) without some magic 'expertise' from Apple.

I expect the reason this is occuring is that they have been in the phone, and there are a couple of others they would like to snatch up, but don't want to kink the legals of the (reasonable expectation of privacy) kinking the prosecutions, much like blowing all the terrorists for legal prosecution when the nutsuckers tortured them.

The issue is one of paperwork, guys.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 2/18/2016 7:00:59 AM >


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RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 7:09:11 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I don't believe in the compunction to labor either. However, for this one instance apple can be forced to testify about methods, algorythmns etc. And since apple has a password reset on every device I think they can be compelled to provide it.


That is not what they are being ordered to do.

Ars Technica has the court order: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2714001-SB-Shooter-Order-Compelling-Apple-Asst-iPhone.html

Look at the second page.

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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