RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue

RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (Full Version)

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Greta75 -> RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (2/19/2016 5:10:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or Yeah, and what if she doesn't have the "fine" YOU want to charge her ? She ain't got five grand now or whatever so she has to support a kid for eighteen years ? She ain't even got money for diapers. WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU ? DO YOU NOT KNOW HOW TO THINK THINGS OUT OR WHAT THE FUCK ? Maybe you are a troll and they should ban your ass, or maybe they need you to keep it fiesty. Wahtaver it is, you do not make alot of fucking sense here. T^T Yea yea, you must have not been around much if you think I am a troll. The "fine" was just a suggestion of a penalty, but if you started reading, the "fine" is now changed to "community service". So do keep up will you?

Lucylastic -> RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (2/19/2016 5:10:23 AM)
TO be quite honest....what you do to ensure your own body is one thing, suggesting it is the same for every woman is where you are bullshitting. you didnt qualify your "rules" and Ive shown you that you hadnt thought the process out...simple. Now considering that the US right wing are so bent on small government and freedom, how is making a woman go thru the types of investigation you are talking about freedom and mall government? You wanna fine a fifteen year old 5000$ for being irresponsible, what about the man? You wanna fine a homeless chick 5000$ for getting pregnant and wanting an abortion? You wanna fine a woman with a religious husband and 8 kids, who refuses to use any protection as its against his faith. You wanna fine a married or single woman for getting pregnant after her pill was negated by antibiotics and she cant afford another child? Your solution is putting more women in slavery, financially, physically, mentally than a pregnancy can. your"solution" is getting weaker and weaker with every post.

Greta75 -> RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (2/19/2016 5:11:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 I believe being able to cook is an essential life-skill that everyone should know, including men. You don't need to cook to eat. Bunch of salad leaves thrown together, cut a few fruits and mix them, and wah lah! You have healthy food to eat! No cooking!

Greta75 -> RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (2/19/2016 5:14:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic TO be quite honest....what you do to ensure your own body is one thing, suggesting it is the same for every woman is where you are bullshitting. you didnt qualify your "rules" and Ive shown you that you hadnt thought the process out...simple. Now considering that the US right wing are so bent on small government and freedom, how is making a woman go thru the types of investigation you are talking about freedom and mall government? You wanna fine a fifteen year old 5000$ for being irresponsible, what about the man? You wanna fine a homeless chick 5000$ for getting pregnant and wanting an abortion? You wanna fine a woman with a religious husband and 8 kids, who refuses to use any protection as its against his faith. You wanna fine a married or single woman for getting pregnant after her pill was negated by antibiotics and she cant afford another child? Your solution is putting more women in slavery, financially, physically, mentally than a pregnancy can. your"solution" is getting weaker and weaker with every post. Again, the "fine" was the first suggestion, before someone brings up that alot of unwanted pregnancies are poor people, and poor people cannot afford abortion in my country, so I never thought that maybe poor people can possibly afford abortion in America. I mean, you guys have welfare and shit, and we don't. So I never consider that poor people could possibly afford abortion, to even abort their babies to start with. Poor people here just give birth anyway! They don't get abortions, who's gonna pay? They can't afford it! So, I have changed it to humane community service to adjust to the fact that poor people can afford abortion in the US.

Lucylastic -> RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (2/19/2016 5:20:42 AM)
As I said, your"solution" has been receding from a fine, changing your mind to what counts as being irresponsible, to what is "ok" with you Now you claim just to want them to do community service... You are backpedalling so fast you will disapear into your own colon. Humane community service... you obviously need to consider reality before continuing on your magical thought processes.

Greta75 -> RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (2/19/2016 5:37:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic As I said, your"solution" has been receding from a fine, changing your mind to what counts as being irresponsible, to what is "ok" with you Now you claim just to want them to do community service... You are backpedalling so fast you will disapear into your own colon. Humane community service... you obviously need to consider reality before continuing on your magical thought processes. I have not been back peddling at all. "Fine" is just my first thought of a punishment because in our country, that always works. But the punishment has to be fair and just. And every point you brought up, wayward also brought up, and I responded to her every point already in like right at the beginning. Before you entered your opinions too. It's just people kept bringing up the same old point that others already brought up over and over again. Without reading the progression and the thought process to how and why it switched to community service. The key thing is, I want a penalty that is not gonna be too brutal incase a genuine rape wasn't able to be proven as one. And the key thing is, when the pregnancy is NOT the woman's fault, like rape or medical problems, she is not liable. But by default of there, being some kind of deterrance there. With social media these days, what's gonna happen is, women will start among themselves, start educating other women just in the sisterhood kind of way, so they won't get slapped with the penalty, and also, those who felt they didn't care before, start getting interested to find out how can they prevent birth properly. It will definitely get people more serious about birth control. I believe it will work out this way, but right now, it's all just my theory. And as with developing any policies, you got to take feedback and consider if it's legitimate concerns, and then tweak the policy accordingly to make it fairer and fairer to all. This is how things are done in our country. Before a policy is gonna be instill, public are always welcome to debate pros and cons, and then usually through public interaction, tweaks are made before final policy is pushed out.

Lucylastic -> RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (2/19/2016 5:44:01 AM)
SO paying a fine for the privilege of NOT being raped and still wanting an abortion is a good thing, not a punishment? Gotcha.

Greta75 -> RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (2/19/2016 5:51:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic SO paying a fine for the privilege of NOT being raped and still wanting an abortion is a good thing, not a punishment? Gotcha. Yea, because the whole point is, don't get pregnant in the first place! Prevention is better! I want birth control to be taken very seriously and to send a message to stop using abortion as a birth control method!

Lucylastic -> RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (2/19/2016 5:53:16 AM)
snicker

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (2/19/2016 6:08:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 I have a case in my country which I thought irrevocably, it was 100% rape, but the rapist got the best criminal lawyer in my country and somehow got off. That would be your opinion, nothing more. quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 The girl was heavily intoxicated, he brought her home, she was crying and saying she don't want it, and she even managed get to her handphone and call her mom and cry in distress for her mom to come get her! He snatch the phone from her and told her mom, everything is okay, he will send her home to the mom in the morning. Then he shut off her phone and kept her away from being able to use her phone and he raped her, and then threw her out of his home naked without her clothes. She actually had to ask passerby for help while naked, trying to get home. This sounds like a one-sided story that isn't telling the whole truth. The only 'evidence' would be the time of the phone call. Everything else is pure conjecture and spin. There is nothing in this portion that has any independent witness to prove the validity of the story. Without that, it's just a story and nothing else. quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 This man was not convicted of rape, despite clear medical evidence that her intoxication level of alcohol was extremely high. And while they accuse her of agreeing to go back with the guy, she claimed she was too intoxicated and weak to know what was really going on until she got to his home and got really scared and didn't want to have sex with him! But there were no wounds, nothing, no violence was done to her, she claim she was too terrified to fight back. Sounds like she was half-pissed and decided after the fact that she didn't like it. With a minor spin on words, this could very easily be a case of remorse. Without being there, it's one person's word against another. If you take this part: "she claimed she was too intoxicated and weak to know what was really going on until she got to his home and got really scared and didn't want to have sex with him! But there were no wounds, nothing, no violence was done to her, she claim she was too terrified to fight back" at face value, it would seem that she had sufficient mental capacity to be aware of what was going on. Whether she gave consent or not is never likely to be known. quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 It is not easy to prove rape, so I don't know why you think alot of men are gonna get in trouble. I think more women who actually got raped can't prove it is more of the bigger issue. In essence, there's no difference between consensual sex and rape except that small little word called "no". There doesn't have to be bruises and other damage for there to be rape and if there are, that could easily be explained away as a bit of rough sex. Without independent video evidence, there's no way of knowing one way or the other. quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 This was one case that always troubled me, how did the man get off! How is it possible she was considered consensual in her state! I've known girls to be blind drunk and not be able to stand but still in full control of their mental faculties. There's been others where a glass of wine is enough for them to be away with the faeries and completely oblivious to the world. Without you actually being there, there's no way of telling how much control the girl actually had. This scenario could equally be rape or regret depending whose story you want to believe. quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 The funny thing is, the advice for women when they do get rape is to incite the man into getting physical violent with you, so there will be physical hurt evidence. You can't win him, but make sure there is alot of evidence of resistance. That's actually very bad advice and could get you killed. Evidence of resistance is not evidence of rape. That's a fact. The guy got away with it because there was no clear-cut evidence of rape. I'm not saying if she was raped or not but he was obviously given the benefit of the doubt where there was no other corroborating evidence. It's a case of innocent until proven guilty and there was no proof. There are many cases of rape where the guy has been falsely accused and imprisoned only to be released later when the true story gets reported. In these cases, the guy has often lost his whole life, marriage, job etc on a false accusation. Equally well, there are cases where rape has not been proven and the guy got away with it. In the case you posted, you have obviously sided with the girl and you say it's definitely rape in your books. I'm just putting the other side of the coin.

Greta75 -> RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (2/19/2016 6:44:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 This sounds like a one-sided story that isn't telling the whole truth. The only 'evidence' would be the time of the phone call. Everything else is pure conjecture and spin. There is nothing in this portion that has any independent witness to prove the validity of the story. Without that, it's just a story and nothing else. In most rape, there usually isn't any independent witnesses, but the alcohol level she was in was considered to be hazardous. Like extremely high! That one point was medically ascertained. quote: If you take this part: "she claimed she was too intoxicated and weak to know what was really going on until she got to his home and got really scared and didn't want to have sex with him! But there were no wounds, nothing, no violence was done to her, she claim she was too terrified to fight back" at face value, it would seem that she had sufficient mental capacity to be aware of what was going on. Whether she gave consent or not is never likely to be known. But especially with Asian women, some are extremely submissive and timid, they were brought up never to talk back, fight back, you can rape them, with just verbal threats. They freeze up in fear. I just think it should be illegal for any man to have sex with a heavily intoxicated woman, because there is no way she can give the clarity of consent. quote: In essence, there's no difference between consensual sex and rape except that small little word called "no". It's impossible to prove that she said "No". IF they were alone, and there was no voice or video recording. quote: Evidence of resistance is not evidence of rape. That's a fact. Even if it's not rape, he will at least be convicted of assault. There will be something. She needs to get herself badly hurt for sure.

Greta75 -> RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (2/19/2016 6:51:20 AM)
Let me tell you what is one of the craziest part of this case, the rapist said, "When I brought her home, she just kept crying and she won't stop crying and she was irritating me that I just wanted to get the sex done and over with and get her to leave!" Like he literally said this too. Why must he fuck her then let her leave? Why can't he just kick her out without fucking her! I mean, what kind of man would still have sex with a drunk and crying woman, clearly completely emotionally fucked up. His a complete scumbag!

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (2/19/2016 6:54:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic SO paying a fine for the privilege of NOT being raped and still wanting an abortion is a good thing, not a punishment? Gotcha. Yea, because the whole point is, don't get pregnant in the first place! Prevention is better! I want birth control to be taken very seriously and to send a message to stop using abortion as a birth control method! You want to fine every woman that gets pregnant for whatever reason and wants an abortion. If not a fine, some sort of community service. You want this regardless of the situation and unless the woman has a medical condition or can prove rape, she has to bear this punishment. Really? Seriously?? [8\|] The man got her pregnant, why not chop his cock off??? He'll only do it once in his life. Seriously Greta, living in your microcosm has given you a very weird PoV. Not every one thinks like you do. In fact, very few seem to think your way.

Greta75 -> RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (2/19/2016 6:59:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1You want to fine every woman that gets pregnant for whatever reason and wants an abortion. If not a fine, some sort of community service. You want this regardless of the situation and unless the woman has a medical condition or can prove rape, she has to bear this punishment. Really? Seriously?? [8\|] The man got her pregnant, why not chop his cock off??? He'll only do it once in his life. A man can't get me pregnant unless he rapes me or I consensually allowed him to get me pregnant by neglecting proper super safe birth control procedures. That's why I don't think the liability should be on the man, unless he rapes her. I mean, this part of things is not so difficult to understand. The man's dick can't get near my vagina UNLESS I allowed him to! Or he rapes me!

CodeOfSilence -> RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (2/19/2016 7:08:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: CodeOfSilence Learn humility! What you want is not interesting here. I have no idea what you are trying to convey here? I am interpreting that you do not agree with me that I want rapists to get convicted. Why would you defend the conviction of rapists? This is alarming. It's positive if he gets convicted but it's not your job to force the victim to co-operate by threatening her with a sentence if she does not. Wrong approach. quote: quote: It has to be proven how? By some tearing in the vaginal wall that can happen during rough sex, some semen left? There are a hundred ways of faking it and here you would be giving someone a reason to do that. I find it refreshing and inspiring that you as an atheist share my beliefs that abortion is a true waste of potential, effort, money, time, suffering and what ever else. But wasn't your solution supposed to bring people together? I don't know precisely how the forensic in the law ascertify if a female is raped or not. So I can't explain to you how they prove it. It's not my field of expertise, but I have to trust the experts this field to do their due diligence from what is their profession to figure out if it's rape or not. I have a case in my country which I thought irrevocably, it was 100% rape, but the rapist got the best criminal lawyer in my country and somehow got off. The girl was heavily intoxicated, he brought her home, she was crying and saying she don't want it, and she even managed get to her handphone and call her mom and cry in distress for her mom to come get her! He snatch the phone from her and told her mom, everything is okay, he will send her home to the mom in the morning. Then he shut off her phone and kept her away from being able to use her phone and he raped her, and then threw her out of his home naked without her clothes. She actually had to ask passerby for help while naked, trying to get home. This man was not convicted of rape, despite clear medical evidence that her intoxication level of alcohol was extremely high. And while they accuse her of agreeing to go back with the guy, she claimed she was too intoxicated and weak to know what was really going on until she got to his home and got really scared and didn't want to have sex with him! But there were no wounds, nothing, no violence was done to her, she claim she was too terrified to fight back. It is not easy to prove rape, so I don't know why you think alot of men are gonna get in trouble. I think more women who actually got raped can't prove it is more of the bigger issue. This was one case that always troubled me, how did the man get off! How is it possible she was considered consensual in her state! The funny thing is, the advice for women when they do get rape is to incite the man into getting physical violent with you, so there will be physical hurt evidence. You can't win him, but make sure there is alot of evidence of resistance. I say this is funny, because, it's like, you are already suffering rape and yet you gotta incite the man to hurt you more, so you can prove it that he rape you later. And of course he could end up killing you if you piss him off so much, so you gotta take that risk anyway. And that's exactly the point. Justice is not clear cut, when it comes to rape charges it's very easy to corrupt justice. Because it's essentially a battle of words and insinuations and arguments it's the lawyer with the most sharp, snake like tongue that wins, not the victim in either direction. Stop trusting justice. It is not blind. If it was blind we need not lawyers. You are thus giving people incentives to lie about a very serious subject that is hard to prove either way.

Greta75 -> RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (2/19/2016 7:09:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CodeOfSilence And that's exactly the point. Justice is not clear cut, when it comes to rape charges it's very easy to corrupt justice. Because it's essentially a battle of words and insinuations and arguments it's the lawyer with the most sharp, snake like tongue that wins, not the victim in either direction. Stop trusting justice. It is not blind. If it was blind we need not lawyers. Which is exactly why the penalty needs to be community service, because rape is so difficult to prove! As I was saying, as with any laws, even possession of smuggling of drugs. Anybody could just plant it on you even if you were innocent and it would be hard to prove. There are cracks in every level, doesn't mean, there shouldn't be penalty for situations where it's impossible to ascertify 100% in many cases. Rape, Smuggling, sometimes, even Murder. So my country also have death penalty for drugs and murder. Possibly, some innocent could have been set up and convicted. Like, I don't even know why OJ is not convicted. Another WTF case. I know no matter what, minority will fall into cracks. Can't be helped, but laws go on.

CodeOfSilence -> RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (2/19/2016 7:15:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: CodeOfSilence And that's exactly the point. Justice is not clear cut, when it comes to rape charges it's very easy to corrupt justice. Because it's essentially a battle of words and insinuations and arguments it's the lawyer with the most sharp, snake like tongue that wins, not the victim in either direction. Stop trusting justice. It is not blind. If it was blind we need not lawyers. Which is exactly why the penalty needs to be community service, because rape is so difficult to prove! As I was saying, as with any laws, even possession of smuggling of drugs. Anybody could just plant it on you even if you were innocent and it would be hard to prove. There are cracks in every level, doesn't mean, there shouldn't be penalty for situations where it's impossible to ascertify 100% in many cases. Rape, Smuggling, sometimes, even Murder. No but the point is you are giving incentive to false rape accusations while putting pressure on rape victims over the life of a fetus and I don't think the means justify the end in this case. quote: So my country also have death penalty for drugs and murder. Possibly, some innocent could have been set up and convicted. Like, I don't even know why OJ is not convicted. Another WTF case. I know no matter what, minority will fall into cracks. Can't be helped, but laws go on. The equivalent of that would be death sentences for rapists while the equivalent of what you're proposing for abortionists would be people accusing others of having forced them to take drugs to escape community service.

Greta75 -> RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (2/19/2016 7:16:53 AM)
On one hand, we are talking about rape victims who would rather suffer in silence than ever admitting they got rape, because they see it as a shameful thing. On the other hand, also saying, rape is something most women would just like, happily use to get out of community service. How can this be? When rape is such a shameful subject? That we are gonna see legions of women crying rape to escape community service? I highly doubt that is gonna be a consequence at all. The kinda hassle to prove rape, is far way worst than just getting community service over and done with. I can't imagine women wanting to go down that route over community service. And I am sure the ones who try will regret it thoroughly. Experiencing rape investigation and questioning is not fun. Community service will be like Disneyland compared to that!

CodeOfSilence -> RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (2/19/2016 7:21:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 On one hand, we are talking about rape victims who would rather suffer in silence than ever admitting they got rape, because they see it as a shameful thing. On the other hand, also saying, rape is something most women would just like, happily use to get out of community service. How can this be? When rape is such a shameful subject? That we are gonna see legions of women crying rape to escape community service? I highly doubt that is gonna be a consequence at all. Because narcissists with anti-social tendencies can construct realities (whether convinced of them or not) that benefit them at the expense of others if there is an incentive to do so while people highly empathic (not necessarily of their rapists) or perhaps simply afraid of their lives or that of their family might convince themselves that it's better to keep quiet. If they still, after the pressure of community service, do not accuse the rapist of rape then you have further punished them and that would be a truly immoral thing to do. Let's say the rapist in this case is that child raping molesting bastard Saville in the UK with his royal connections who raped mentally traumatized young people. The people he raped in mental hospitals that came forward were further punished and isolated by the faceless bureaucracy of the welfare state while those who did not were not. It could be argued that it would be better for more of them to have come out earlier. It would also be nice that rapists and pedophiles didn't occupy high positions of power of political influence, and Saville had been accused before too. Or replaces Saville with a mafia boss in Mexico.

Greta75 -> RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue (2/19/2016 7:29:49 AM)
I think the beauty of community punishment is, you're punished to do something positive. Infact if a woman has been rape and is keeping it a secret, and this whole community service happened to her, it might end up to be something good, rather than detrimental. Because I feel like the problem with rape victims is they might feel dirtied and worthless. And if they did something that they saw how their work made someone else happy or they can see the fruits of how they can still contribute in a positive way despite feeling damaged. I think it would be therapy for the victim, that despite what she went through, she is still a good person able to do good things and people appreciate her and there is hope to normalcy again.

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