Wrong Vs. Not right

Wrong Vs. Not right (Full Version)

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ExiledTyrant -> Wrong Vs. Not right (3/1/2016 5:17:50 AM)
I find myself, recently, explaining this a lot to nilla folk... I mean a lot. In the kinky world it's a bit easier to convey... I get less "deer in the headlight" blank stares from kinky folk, but it's been a minute since this board has been lucid enough (yes, it's a crap shoot even now) to get off into such a topic, but here. we. go! The "You're not submissive/Dominant enough" knee jerk statement is usually BDSM player card one (1). It get's pulled off the top of the deck and tossed out first when disharmony or discord first arrises. Finding a meaningful connection online is fairly easy, we really get to choose and censor the way we communicate and when that moves on to phone calls you're a bit more prepared to communicate, verbally, in the same mean that has been successful through email and or texts. When it moves on to some eFace time your mutual communication is already flowing, in flux, and it's working. Sometimes we run into "Wrong behavior vs not right behavior" while this initial communication begins. You correct and move on... in theory. Too often that "correction" is less than true and it is just "avoidance" until it implodes later down the line. Wrong vs Not right is very case by case. Some things that are in my "wrong" category are in someone else's "hell yes I love it" category. Since it is, in fact, so subjective, I'll offer up a very neutral example. I dry my cutlery in the block after it's been washed. I am very particular about my cutlery, the haft has to sweep up to join the handle, not a tang under a handle (my OCD is way too crazy for me to toothbrush the tang under the handle where monsters are growing to come alive and kill me in my sleep). My dishes, cups, plates, glasses, etc... go in the cupboard top down, not top up. I've had oodles of girls do my dishes and they didn't do it wrong, just not right. After a few times of course correction they get it... sometimes the knives in the dish drain become a consistent thing and it is no longer "not right" it's just wrong. Wrong becomes an irritant and they get fired from that particular job and get to go collect cans for the homeless. Wrong vs Not Right applies to everything, nilla or kink, and in a relationship most people do not understand the distinction of "wrong" vs "not right". This is where the rub lies... in the kink world it can damage a persons self worth as a D or /s, it can persist and damage their self esteem... which is very bad. Self worth is an easy fix, self esteem becomes a demon of insecurity. In the nilla world, this is usually damage done over a long period of time and becomes a hell'ov a knot to untangle. I'm very foreword about the "Wrong" stuff that is a deal breaker for me. The "not right" stuff is part of the relationship acclimation dance. I meet a lot of /s's that are just "not right" for me, I rarely meet any that are just "wrong", and sometimes I get mail that leaves me stymied by "Wot the fuck were you thinking? Did you even read my profile?" That happens rare enough that the title didn't merit "Wrong vs Not Right vs Here's a Darwin award for you". So when I hear the "You're not submissive/Dominant enough" I shake my head and wonder if person X has any idea wot the difference between "Wrong D or /s for me VS Not Right D or /s for me".

LilJuly76 -> RE: Wrong Vs. Not right (3/1/2016 5:26:12 AM)
I think the "you're not submissive/Dominant" response is just an excuse. I have had that response by "Dominants" from the UK, Africa, parts of the States, Barbados etc.... when I told them I do not do long distance and Internet BDSM or when I told them I don't relocate. I had someone just this morning asking me to relocate to the UK. I'm sure I know what the response will be when I told him no. locally I was talking to one Dominant first online than on the phone he out of the blue decided I wasn't submissive enough, months later when I have some play partners he wants me as a submissive, then he decides I'm too submissive for him. And he never did meet me face to face.

ExiledTyrant -> RE: Wrong Vs. Not right (3/1/2016 5:31:38 AM)
LOL! Mind boggling, isn't it? You and I have been quite simpatico on many points and here we are again. Had he said you're just "wrong" for me or "not right" for me that would've led to some dialogue and you both could've learned a bit from the experience. But the "you're not submissive enough" crap is just such a cop out that leaves you either wondering or you start to wall off from others, which in the long term just isn't healthy. Not saying either is healthy, but walling off is worse.

LilJuly76 -> RE: Wrong Vs. Not right (3/1/2016 5:45:56 AM)
it's definitely mind boggling. Every Dominant I have ever been involved with always told me I was beyond submissive, but I blame that on the old fashioned European family I grew up with. That's why I laugh when I see these young newbie hot looking submissives that think they know what being a BDSM slave is all about, they have no clue.

crazyml -> RE: Wrong Vs. Not right (3/1/2016 5:59:06 AM)
Meh. I think the distinction between "wrong" and "not right" is way too subtle to have actual meaning. I could easily swap the two terms in your example, for example.

LadyPact -> RE: Wrong Vs. Not right (3/1/2016 6:24:21 AM)
Come on. You can admit it. You made part of this thread about the dishes for me, didn't ya? I'm feeling the love. [sm=wash_the_dishes7.gif] Man, you had me going right up until the last sentence because "for me" is a really big deal to me. This is the difference between some a-hole on the net trying to talk people into things they don't want to do and knowing what kind of person is the right match for you. I'll say it flat out. Bedroom submissives are not right for me. I'll wish them all of the luck (and fun) in the world with somebody else but it's not what I want. It's not an insult. I certainly am cognizant of the fact that I'm not every s-type's dream, either. However, "wrong vrs not right" is bigger than that. I saw a post the other day from somebody who happens to be a male D, really doesn't like me a bit, but I could have written that post about one of the "wrongs" in relationships. A forum like this one, we are darn near always telling s-types, if your D is lying to you, broken your trust, screwing with your hard limits, get the hell out. Oh, but we skip that for the other side of the slash. How the "wrong" can go that way as well. For some reason, we fail to recognize this. Everybody has hard limits. Whether it's engaging in kinky acts, behavior, character, or any other thing. Way different than just "not right".

LadyPact -> RE: Wrong Vs. Not right (3/1/2016 7:18:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LilJuly76 I think the "you're not submissive/Dominant" response is just an excuse. Nah. It's an attempt at emotional manipulation. Think of all of the times that somebody has tried to pull this ploy on you. If they've pulled the "you're not a xxx," the root of it is they are trying to manipulate you into doing something they want, that you don't want to do. I don't say this often, but it's a tool of the weak minded. It means they literally have no other cards to play. They have nothing else to reach for. All they have managed is to fail to manipulate you.

longwayhome -> RE: Wrong Vs. Not right (3/1/2016 7:22:37 AM)
The way I see it the terms Dominant and submissive are approximations in the first place. Saying someone is not Dominant/submissive enough is just a cop out for not trying to work out where someone is coming from. From a BDSM or vanilla point of view we all have the equivalent of deal breakers and those things which we just work on as we get to know people. Unfortunately some people (both Dominant and submissive) put up barriers to a relationship or intimacy within a relationship that really don't matter that much, or object to requirements that cost them nothing. In the OP example, cleaning and storing knives in a certain way, costs nothing for someone to go along with, if it is something one person feels strongly about. Frankly even if that person was the "submissive", it costs the "Dominant" partner nothing to look after dishes and cutlery a certain way. Having a relatively harmless OCD and going with it isn't a major issue for either party (quite different from having serious a OCD that paralyses your life). Failure as a Dominant or a submissive? Hell, sometimes not doing what someone wants sometimes is just a failure to give a shit about something that's important to someone, and little to do with BDSM. If having someone agree with everything you do and do everything you say is important to some people as Dominants, then they have to be very specific with others about their needs. Someone who is the Dominant in a relationship, but doesn't insist on that level of mind-control and micro-management, can be said to be "not Dominant enough" but that's just BS. There is more than one way for a dynamic to work, and a continuum of control from understated to complete imprisonment, depending on your tastes/needs. How many threads do we have where a Dom (usually but not always male) complains that they cannot get someone to do/act the way they want? At some point in the thread the knowing reply comes back that they are "not Dominant enough", because of course a real Dom/me has a magical aura of control, which mere mortals can't resist, that emanates from their every pore. Anything less just isn't the real deal. So often in such threads the problem is that the poster has unrealistic expectations - not helped by some joker advising them to "man-up" as a dom. I'm a sub, and I'm not a carpet, but I do know the difference between my own freedom to think and act as I see fit and a bottom line in a relationship. Being respectful, deferring to someone else and doing things for them, including things you would not otherwise do, is not the same as being a mindless drone. These things are all part of the negotiation of the dynamic of any relationship. In particular I am only submissive to someone by agreement, and not to everyone else in the world, who identifies themselves as a dom/me. I am not part of a half-hidden slave cast who has to bow to a self appointed elite of Dom/mes. As such, I am someone who makes very personal decisions to submit with another human being. No matter how hard I try, I cannot pretend to be an empty vessel, with no personality or agency of my own. Not submissive enough? Well quite possibly, if you need a full-on slave who never says boo to you, but thankfully for me, that's not true for everyone. The use of the criticism/insult "not submissive/Dominant enough" is not some judgement against some universally agreed standard handed down by the BDSM Gods. It is often just a high-handed way of dismissing another human when the truth is you just see the world differently to them or need something different from what they offer.

longwayhome -> RE: Wrong Vs. Not right (3/1/2016 7:26:34 AM)
Or as LP says a fairly unpleasant attempt at emotional manipulation.

littleclip -> RE: Wrong Vs. Not right (3/1/2016 7:36:48 AM)
some of what i see is bassed on the bdsm porn and what is sent out as what a D/s is like. there is no one way for anything even bdsm it was a hard time for me to see my owner as a human who could make mistakes. sometimes this gets said when theres something that is bothering them and they dont want to talk about it or even know how to express the thought.[sm=2cents.gif]

ExiledTyrant -> RE: Wrong Vs. Not right (3/1/2016 7:40:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: longwayhome Or as LP says a fairly unpleasant attempt at emotional manipulation. That is the lion share of it. Most people cannot see themselves in a relationship... or attempted relationship and have a very difficult time assuming the onus of their own failing/shortcoming/failure. I receive a great deal of correspondence and within the first three messages I ask if they have read my profile and understand it, because I have a particular dynamic and It's. Not. Ever. Changing. Sometimes that ends up with the go to crap: You're stuck up! You're so unrealistic You're not a real D blah blah blah Some people just cannot accept that you're not right or just simply wrong for them. Again, not right is doable, but wrong remains wrong. I'm a Primal fiend that will use you for a chew toy and a piece of meat when my Primal freak is on. I'm also relationship orientated and don't willing board the Titanic. If I suspect that person X has the potential for a LTR, I'm going to explore it... but again, if it's the Titanic, I'll catch the next one, thanks ;) Primal is a process of acclimation. You have to slowly *groom* your mate to the level of intensity that your Primal monster likes to play at. Therefore, if being a chew toy, piece of meat, and all the delicious other rough stuff that goes along with it, is wrong for you, don't try it. However, if you're uncertain, it may or may not be right, explore that shit and see how it works out. You'll arrive at "it's so fucking wrong" or "that's doable". Jus sayin

DaddySatyr -> RE: Wrong Vs. Not right (3/1/2016 7:55:54 AM)
I am not really into BDSM, at all. Oh, some minor bits and pieces of the behavior, to be sure, but I am much more a practitioner of D/s. When I had a profile up on this site (and on Fet and even on OKC), I explained my way of life in some detail. I made no bones about the fact that a lady wasn't going to be getting too much BDSM from me. They'd send a message, telling me how terrific my profile was. Then, in the course of conversation, they'd find out that I didn't know how to do Shibari or that I refused to break skin or leave black and blue marks (or anything even close). At that point, I would get the: "Maybe you're not dominant enough for me" bullshit. It always made me chuckle, when people who had "been submissive all my life" conflated "masochism" with "submission". I also found it amusing that I wasn't dominant enough because I wouldn't adjust my principles to fit what they were looking for. Michael

LadyPact -> RE: Wrong Vs. Not right (3/1/2016 8:07:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr They'd send a message, telling me how terrific my profile was. Then, in the course of conversation, they'd find out that I didn't know how to do Shibari or that I refused to break skin or leave black and blue marks (or anything even close). At that point, I would get the: "Maybe you're not dominant enough for me" bullshit. Michael I'm not entirely sure you are getting the whole thing. Had a person said, "you are not sadistic enough for me," there shouldn't have been anything wrong with that.

WickedsDesire -> RE: Wrong Vs. Not right (3/1/2016 8:13:45 AM)
Sorry exiled I am a little lost on this one. Ladies the knives/forks/skewers on the washboard/drain must always be pointed down I have cats what's wrong with you or i may stumble in my sandals (they are fine sandals/slippers and pretty wrecked-tripping, cfs aside, happens often and falling) Coffee must be drunk from a cup no fuller than 3/4 and never from mug or mug bucket....weaker solution In my experience most of my mailers, anywhere have no credible reality that they claim (this is to talk too not mate with), then all else that follows is without meaning, hollow, and so on. I have no recollection, ever, of anyone using You're not submissive/Dominant enough" on me...nor have I ever used on it anyone, nor will.

SinFix -> RE: Wrong Vs. Not right (3/1/2016 10:53:08 AM)
Having learned a lot this past year. Why is there even a "wrong" or "not right"? The way I have grown is to realize we are all right, anything less is negative and spirals to negative, bad reactions/responses. In a relationship, both are equally right. It is the way their independent rights flow together that creates a long term prosperity that many people hope to achieve. Now I am not talking moral rights/wrongs, but just the everyday rights that we all have. It takes real listening and work to not bring in the not right/wrong into a relationship, but by only bringing in the right there is something to build on and grow. Taking Exiled's example of the dishes, no one is wrong or not right, both are right and to say someone is not right is at the core putting that person down in a way. Which long term would start to effect their esteem. It is easier to project and bring in the negative, it is the path of least resistance. Putting, tearing anyone down is easy, building someone up takes supreme control, but with that control takes all the negative and demolishes it. So, if someone said I am not submissive enough, they are right but I am right in knowing I am. No focus on the not, focus is switched to the am and building can continue.

Bhruic -> RE: Wrong Vs. Not right (3/1/2016 10:58:06 AM)
People tend to understand the world from their own unique perspective, and thus it is all too easy to understand that things that are not the way one likes them are "wrong". It takes some intellectual effort to see and understand other perspectives, and be able to see the difference, or disconnect, between right/wrong and like/dislike.

OsideGirl -> RE: Wrong Vs. Not right (3/1/2016 11:11:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LilJuly76 I think the "you're not submissive/Dominant" response is just an excuse. I have had that response by "Dominants" from the UK, Africa, parts of the States, Barbados etc.... when I told them I do not do long distance and Internet BDSM or when I told them I don't relocate. I find the "you're not ___ enough" or "you're not a real ____" to be emotional blackmail. They're trying to get the response they want by excluding you and having your desire to be included change your mind or position.

SinFix -> RE: Wrong Vs. Not right (3/1/2016 11:14:33 AM)
Bhruic, I agree most people see through their own perspective, mostly because it is the easiest least resistant path. When I used to teach riding lessons, I would ingrain in my students that everything will take the path of least resistance, add to that the human conditioning of being "better", "right", "superior" to other humans breeds this negative thought process. It takes works to step out of comfort and say you are right.

LilJuly76 -> RE: Wrong Vs. Not right (3/1/2016 1:47:34 PM)
Never thought of it that way but you're probably right. oh yes read your other post as well LadyPact, bedroom siubmissives aren't for me either and I'm a submissive! I find they have no clue what it takes to be an actual slave or submissive in an actual D/s relationship. another pet peeve that I have is kind of on the same wave length as manipulating people online, yesterday someone from another country than me sent me a message asking me personal questions because he was interested. I said I don't tell people personal answers about me unless I decide I may want some sort of D/s relationship with them. Their response is they are no longer interested in me. What made them think I would be interested in them in a different country from where I lived?

LilJuly76 -> RE: Wrong Vs. Not right (3/1/2016 1:53:17 PM)
you and LadyPact brought up a valid way of looking at it, I always thought it was just anger or annoyance because they couldn't get what they wanted from me out of email or PM. But the way you both call it emotional blackmail I think it fits more.

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