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Yes, it does mean he is ignoring my wish to not talk further by messaging me again. It becomes harassment at some point.

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ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

I would argue the opposite. In polite society, it is absolutely expected to get/say please and thank you. If I hold a door for someone, I damn well expect a thank you. Do I get it, more often than not, no. But you better be sure, I expect it. To that end, if someone holds a door for me, guess what? I say thank you. A waiter brings me a menu, I say thank you. A cashier gives me change, I say thank you. Why, because its what ya do in polite society. We are talking about expectation versus result here... There are no laws forcing us to be polite, hell in some cities people take it as their right to be rude pricks. But to say we should not expect politeness? We should not go into every exchange with another human being, both offering and receiving common courtesy/politeness? No. Again, this is expectation versus result. I put it out there that everyone should expect politeness.

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ORIGINAL: ImperialPath

Just to make sure I am clear and to not let you off the hook too early, does this mean you think it is harassment if he writes a second message, one that is positive?

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ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

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ORIGINAL: ImperialPath

Just to make sure I am clear and to not let you off the hook too early, does this mean you think it is harassment if he writes a second message, one that is positive?

It depends on the tone with which is was turned down.

If he was told "Don't contact me again" or "I am not interested in talking to you" it's harassment with the second message.

If he was told "I'm not interested in dating you" carrying on a polite conversation is fine, pushing for a date after all in the second message is harassment.

If he was ignored, trying again is fine.

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ORIGINAL: ImperialPath

I agree.

But do you think that really happens to guys? It does not. We (great guys) are either not responded to and so never send another message or the response is neutral and we might explore this with a second message or we get a positive response obviously meant to lead to a conversation. But never a "I am not interested in talking to you" or "Do not contact me again" unless she was married and we are not discussing married women here, I think I am right in assuming?

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ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

And BTW, your argument towards cashiers or waiters doesn't apply, considering that we're talking about private businesses where you create an obligation for them to do something for you. You create the obligation on the waitress and cashier to do something for you (which comes from their boss expecting them to provide you a service, which comes from their desire to earn a living). Considering that you engage with them on the terms that they should have to do something for you, it's obviously reasonable for them to expect you to be courteous and respect their work in return.

The same doesn't apply when you open a door for somebody. When you open a door, you don't do so in reply to an expectation of work you have placed on them. You do it because you feel like doing so.
As such, your desire to do so doesn't create an obligation on them to do anything in return. They didn't ask you to open the door. They didn't expect it. They didn't require it from you. And they didn't place the obligation on you to open the door.

As such, you doing so regardless of your own free will does not create an obligation on them. Sure, it's nice of them if they're courteous in return. But your act of free will does not place any sort of obligation on them, not even to be polite, because they didn't ask you to do something for them.

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ORIGINAL: Darkfeather
I would argue the opposite. In polite society, it is absolutely expected to get/say please and thank you. If I hold a door for someone, I damn well expect a thank you. Do I get it, more often than not, no. But you better be sure, I expect it. To that end, if someone holds a door for me, guess what? I say thank you. A waiter brings me a menu, I say thank you. A cashier gives me change, I say thank you. Why, because its what ya do in polite society. We are talking about expectation versus result here... There are no laws forcing us to be polite, hell in some cities people take it as their right to be rude pricks. But to say we should not expect politeness? We should not go into every exchange with another human being, both offering and receiving common courtesy/politeness? No. Again, this is expectation versus result. I put it out there that everyone should expect politeness.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather
I would argue the opposite. In polite society, it is absolutely expected to get/say please and thank you. If I hold a door for someone, I damn well expect a thank you. Do I get it, more often than not, no. But you better be sure, I expect it. To that end, if someone holds a door for me, guess what? I say thank you. A waiter brings me a menu, I say thank you. A cashier gives me change, I say thank you. Why, because its what ya do in polite society. We are talking about expectation versus result here... There are no laws forcing us to be polite, hell in some cities people take it as their right to be rude pricks. But to say we should not expect politeness? We should not go into every exchange with another human being, both offering and receiving common courtesy/politeness? No. Again, this is expectation versus result. I put it out there that everyone should expect politeness.

In all of the instances you described above, you have used examples of things you want. You WANT the door opened so you can go through it. You WANT the menu. You WANT your change to complete your transaction.

What about the stuff you don't want? When was the last time you thanked the competitor of your insurance company for sending you mail to tell you about their great rates? The guy who hung the menu from the local restaurant on your door? The Jehovah's Witnesses for the literature?

Why are the standards for your junk mail different than the ones I should be using for mine?

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ORIGINAL: ImperialPath
All good and welcome perspectives.

For the guys, if you get a polite but negative reply, don't give up so quickly. Send her another note with something positive asking her something about herself and make sure the first sentence is positive so she knows you are replying just as you might if you happen to meet her in a bar and are trying to interest her.

She will not take offense at you writing again, most likely, and might even "bite" on the second positive note and reply. Always end your note with a question which then gives her an excuse to right back without seeming to be too forward, she will be looking for an excuse to write back if you interest her even a little. Every communication to her needs to not leave her with no reason to reply or the conversation might stop.

I found this is a successful approach and while it does not guarantee results every time it does get good results and they might be no shows but honestly I've never had a noshow after writing and then talking on the phone for a week or so. Maybe it's the charm. Work on your charm. CS women like to be charmed like any others.

You can count me as the fifth woman on this thread that finds this irritating as hell.

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ORIGINAL: ImperialPath

quote:

Yes, it does mean he is ignoring my wish to not talk further by messaging me again. It becomes harassment at some point.

Just to make sure I am clear and to not let you off the hook too early, does this mean you think it is harassment if he writes a second message, one that is positive?

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Strange but all these women here are receiving messages, they dont want and wont answer, with the tiniest population of guys stating they are wrong.

Btw, the women you email arent customer service, or wait staff that are paid..to be nice to you....but im not surprised,you feel entitled to be ignorant.

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ORIGINAL: ImperialPath

What a beautiful spin! No, the ladies respond negatively and the male writes a second message also polite which they can ignore or enjoy or chose to fill harassed, I suppose. But doesn't that say a lot about the woman rather than the guy, now that I think a bit more about it?

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ORIGINAL: ImperialPath





What a beautiful spin! No, the ladies respond negatively and the male writes a second message also polite which they can ignore or enjoy or chose to fill harassed, I suppose. But doesn't that say a lot about the woman rather than the guy, now that I think a bit more about it?

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ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I have expectations when I hold a door for someone. That doesn't obligate them to be courteous. Neither does it absolve them of being rude or discourteous. Also, it doesn't require me to stop thinking of the behavior as rude or discourteous. I think it shows a lack of nurture or behavior. Either way, they get nothing except the most basic of courtesies from me, from then on.

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ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

How long do you spend on the phone being 'polite' to someone who won't take no for an answer?

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ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

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ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

I would argue the opposite. In polite society, it is absolutely expected to get/say please and thank you. If I hold a door for someone, I damn well expect a thank you. Do I get it, more often than not, no. But you better be sure, I expect it. To that end, if someone holds a door for me, guess what? I say thank you. A waiter brings me a menu, I say thank you. A cashier gives me change, I say thank you. Why, because its what ya do in polite society. We are talking about expectation versus result here... There are no laws forcing us to be polite, hell in some cities people take it as their right to be rude pricks. But to say we should not expect politeness? We should not go into every exchange with another human being, both offering and receiving common courtesy/politeness? No. Again, this is expectation versus result. I put it out there that everyone should expect politeness.

So your argument is that by your actions, you have the right to force your morals, values and ideals on others?

And that, by voluntarily doing something for somebody else they didn't ask you to do, you are now creating an obligation upon them to be grateful?

And BTW, your argument towards cashiers or waiters doesn't apply, considering that we're talking about private businesses where you create an obligation for them to do something for you. You create the obligation on the waitress and cashier to do something for you (which comes from their boss expecting them to provide you a service, which comes from their desire to earn a living). Considering that you engage with them on the terms that they should have to do something for you, it's obviously reasonable for them to expect you to be courteous and respect their work in return.

The same doesn't apply when you open a door for somebody. When you open a door, you don't do so in reply to an expectation of work you have placed on them. You do it because you feel like doing so.
As such, your desire to do so doesn't create an obligation on them to do anything in return. They didn't ask you to open the door. They didn't expect it. They didn't require it from you. And they didn't place the obligation on you to open the door.

As such, you doing so regardless of your own free will does not create an obligation on them. Sure, it's nice of them if they're courteous in return. But your act of free will does not place any sort of obligation on them, not even to be polite, because they didn't ask you to do something for them.

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ORIGINAL: ImperialPath

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Strange but all these women here are receiving messages, they dont want and wont answer, with the tiniest population of guys stating they are wrong.

Btw, the women you email arent customer service, or wait staff that are paid..to be nice to you....but im not surprised,you feel entitled to be ignorant.

What a beautiful spin! No, the ladies respond negatively and the male writes a second message also polite which they can ignore or enjoy or chose to fill harassed, I suppose. But doesn't that say a lot about the woman rather than the guy, now that I think a bit more about it?

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ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

How long do you spend on the phone being 'polite' to someone who won't take no for an answer?