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RE: National Health Care *FAIL* - 4/5/2016 3:35:37 PM   
mnottertail


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Yeah, but not addressed in reciprocation. Look at all the poor muslims coming into europe, still better healthcare. Same situations, a wide barrage of substance abuse, suicide, homicide, and immigrants which had poor healthcare prior to entry to Europe. Life expectancy is not metric by which you can measure health care efficacy (why not?) prima facie false. The US has huge problems with obesity and smoking, and an excercise averse culture, not to mention the factlessness you have posted to 'deal' with it.

Smoking rates? we aint on the radar pal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_cigarette_consumption_per_capita

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2228rank.html
most of them up there out live us as well as outweigh us.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/19/exercise-countries_n_1683435.html?slideshow=true#gallery/239433/0
more couch potatoes here and there, and they are living longer and healthier.

no, no causation, no correlation with your supposed 'dealings'.

efficacy of america is not only unproven but you make even better arguments against the usefulness of our health systems. and prove it is pretty worthless compared to the world.

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Profile   Post #: 141
RE: National Health Care *FAIL* - 4/5/2016 3:44:01 PM   
Phydeaux


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Wrong again. From your own cite:
US smoking: 1028
Canada: 809
UK: 750
Norway: 534

Ie., when you compare healthcare - you have to have control for extraneous variables - such as smoking.

Obesity US 33%
Canada 26%
Germany 25%
Denmark 18%

Etc.

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Profile   Post #: 142
RE: National Health Care *FAIL* - 4/5/2016 3:45:18 PM   
Phydeaux


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To justify more government control of America’s health care, ObamaCare supporters frequently assert that access to and quality of health care in the United States are poor. However, the facts from source documents and medical journals show that Americans enjoy superior access to care compared to nationalized systems, the very systems put forth as models for ObamaCare — whether defined by wait-times for diagnosis, treatment, or specialists; timeliness of surgery; access to screening; or availability of medical technology and drugs. The separate issue of quality of care also demands analysis of objective data – and that means data from peer-reviewed medical journals, rather than subjective “rankings” and surveys by advocacy groups.

Even before medical care quality is compared, one should understand that a population’s lifestyle, behavior, and heterogeneity impact health outcomes and life expectancies, even when medical treatment is sound.

For instance, cigarette smoking and obesity are proven to increase risk for serious diseases, worsen outcomes from those diseases, and decrease life expectancy—even with excellent medical care. And their impact is huge.

Cigarette smoking alone accounts for about 443,000 deaths, or nearly one of every five, each year in the US, and is independently responsible for about 35 percent of all heart attacks, particularly fatal ones, and about 20 percent of strokes.

The rationale for President Obama’s radical transformation of the US health care system was incorrect. Combined with the fact that the law does not reduce health care expenditures, it represents one of the most tragic errors of misguided government in modern history.

Because smoking harms nearly every organ of the body, it causes or exacerbates many additional diseases, and it worsens outcomes from surgery and innumerable other treatments.

Obesity is now linked to greater risk of death from heart disease, stroke, diabetes, high blood pressure, all of the most prevalent cancers, and worse treatment outcomes after heart surgery, trauma and burn surgery, and transplants. It is not simply that rates of diseases are higher; the treatment outcomes are significantly worse for cigarette smokers and obese patients.

Why would these behaviors have particular impact on US health care rankings?

First, the prevalence of obesity is far higher in the United States than in all other OECD nations. More than one-third of Americans are obese, compared to 15.4 percent in Canada, 10.2 percent in Sweden, and 9.0 percent in Norway. Thorpe separately compared the US to ten Western European nations (Austria, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland) and found that Americans were nearly twice as likely as Western Europeans to be obese (33.1 percent versus 17.1 percent). It’s not a fluke that Japan, where only 3.4 percent of people are obese, has the greatest longevity.

Second, the United States harbors a far higher burden of cigarette smoking than other nations. Almost 70 percent of U.S. men born between 1910 and 1930 were regular smokers by age thirty-five. The US had the highest level of cigarette consumption per capita compared to all other developed nations over a five decade period ending in the mid-1980s. Americans are still significantly more likely than Western Europeans to be current or former smokers (53 versus 43 percent). Although some emphasize that smoking cessation rates are higher in the US than in Europe, the WHO was correct when it stated that “current prevalence of tobacco smoking is an inadequate predictor of the accumulated risk from smoking” because “the diseases caused by smoking, particularly cancers including lung cancer, occur after long delays...with an average time lag of twenty- five to thirty years.” Clearly, the high historical burden of cigarette consumption in the US continues to have impact.

Let’s compare data for cancer, heart disease, and stroke, the most common sources of sickness and death in the US and Europe, and the diseases that generate the highest medical expenditures.

American cancer patients, both men and women, have superior survival rates for all major cancers. For some specifics, per Verdecchia, the breast cancer mortality rate is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the US, and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom; prostate cancer mortality rates are strikingly worse in the UK, Norway, and elsewhere than in the US; mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher than in the US. Removing “lead-time bias,” where simply detecting cancer earlier might falsely demonstrate longer survival, death rates from prostate and breast cancer from the early 1980’s to 2005 declined much faster in the US than in the 15 other OECD nations studied (Australia, Austria, Canada, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Japan, the Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and UK). The inescapable conclusion from objective data is that US patients have superior outcomes from nearly all cancers.

Treatment for heart disease is also superior in the United States.

First, a comparison of the US to ten Western European nations (Austria, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland) showed that 60.7 percent of Americans diagnosed with heart disease were actually receiving medication for it, while only 54.5 percent of Western Europeans were treated (a statistically significant difference).

Likewise, US patients needing surgery for heart disease receive it more frequently than heart patients in countries with nationalized insurance. For example, twice as many bypass procedures and four times as many angioplasties are performed per capita in the US as in the UK. A separate comparison between Canadian and American patients showed the same pattern: of patients diagnosed with coronary heart disease, a higher percentage of US patients actually received treatment.

But is there evidence that Americans with heart disease actually benefit from receiving treatment more frequently compared to patients elsewhere? The answer is yes. Specifically, the US shows a significantly greater reduction in death rates from heart disease than Western European nations, the European Union as a whole, and Japan.

A separate study showed that Americans had a significantly longer five-year survival after acute heart attack than Canadians. The authors concluded that “our findings are strongly suggestive of a survival advantage for the US cohort based on more aggressive revascularization.”

Another comparison study showed that fewer Americans than UK residents die (per capita) from heart attack despite the far higher burden of risk factors in Americans for these fatal events. In fact, the heart disease mortality rate in England was 36 percent higher than that in the US. These superior outcomes from US medical care are particularly impressive, considering that American patients have far more risk factors (diabetes, obesity, chronic kidney disease) that worsen outcomes and death rates after heart attack and after heart surgery.

The US shows a far greater reduction in death rates from stroke, the third leading cause of death and the leading cause of disability in adults in the US and most Western European nations, than almost all Western European nations and the European Union overall.

One reason for better results of stroke care is that modern therapy has been more widely available and was available years earlier in the US than in countries with nationalized insurance. Even given the disadvantages inherent to American patients (physically inactive, obese, and with high blood pressure – all significantly higher than comparison countries), studies still prove better medical care for stroke in the US.

What about treatment for chronic diseases like hypertension and diabetes?

To assess the quality of care for high blood pressure, or hypertension, we must look at two sets of data. First, once hypertension is diagnosed, is it treated or does it go untreated? About two-thirds to three-fourths of patients with high blood pressure in Canada and Europe were left untreated, compared to less than half in the US, with England having the lowest level of treatment, followed by Sweden and Germany, Spain, Italy and Canada, all far behind the US in a comparison study. In a different study, 88.3 percent of patients aged 18 to 64 in the US diagnosed as hypertensive received treatment, compared to 84.1 percent of the Canadians with hypertension, a pattern also seen in older patients.

Second, hypertension treatment in the US has been more successful in controlling blood pressure than elsewhere. One comparison showed that control in treated patients at 140/90 blood pressure, as well as at a higher standard of 160/95, was highest in the US, outperforming Canada, England, Germany, Italy, Sweden, and Spain.

In a separate analysis of over 21,000 patients already visiting doctors for hypertension in five Western European nations (France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and the UK) and the US, the best rate of success was in the US (63 percent), compared with 31 percent to 46 percent of patients in the European countries. The facts show that more successful blood pressure control was seen in the US for both women and men under treatment, differences that are statistically significant. As for why, the conclusion by the authors is not surprising: “lower treatment thresholds and more intensive treatment contribute to better hypertension control in the United States” …that is, because of the delivery of better medical care in America.

No disease has more far-reaching and more serious consequences than diabetes, a disease near the top of the list of the world’s most important health challenges, fueled by a relentless rise in obesity. The risk for death in diabetics is about twice that without diabetes, and disease outcomes are also significantly worse. While “type 2” diabetes (90 to 95 percent of diabetes) is preventable by an individual’s own choices (weight loss and increased exercise), medical care focuses on control of blood glucose to limit organ damage and complications.

Receiving diabetes care is the first concern, and then attaining control is the second. In 2011, the WHO determined that of seven countries, the US had the highest proportion of adult diabetics who were actually receiving treatment for their known diabetes, as well as for their hypertension and for their high cholesterol.

A 2007 comparison of Canadians and Americans showed the same -- a higher percentage of American diabetics than Canadian diabetics actually receive treatment. In the same WHO analysis, the US also performed best by several different quality measures, including blood glucose control, as well as effective management for all three key factors in diabetics (blood glucose, blood pressure, and blood cholesterol), approximately twice the success of England and Scotland. Here’s the bottom line: if you had diabetes, you were more likely to receive treatment and be treated successfully for the disease and the important risk factors for its serious sequelae in the US than in any other country studied.

Objectively, the world’s leading medical journals are filled with studies demonstrating the excellence of American medical care in comparison to other systems more heavily controlled by government bodies, the very systems held as models by those asserting the need for radical change to US health care.

These studies verify better survival from serious diseases like cancer, better access to treatment for the most important chronic diseases, and superior control of diseases that cause disability and death and are themselves significant risk factors for other deadly diseases … all this even though US life expectancy and disease outcomes are worsened because Americans harbor more risk factors than all other countries.

Yet another inescapable conclusion is evident – the rationale for President Obama’s radical transformation of the US health care system was incorrect. Combined with the fact that the law does not reduce health care expenditures, it represents one of the most tragic errors of misguided government in modern history. All Americans, as well as children and adults throughout the world who benefit from US health care innovation, will be far worse off for it.

Scott W. Atlas, MD is the David and Joan Traitel Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and author of "In Excellent Health: Setting the Record Straight on America’s Health Care" (Hoover Press, 2011).

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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: National Health Care *FAIL* - 4/5/2016 3:48:23 PM   
Phydeaux


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Here are comparative survival rates: http://www.collarchat.com/m_4657767/mpage_9/key_healthcare/tm.htm#4670561

And here:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK62584/ specifically graph 9.1: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK62584/table/ch9.t1/?report=objectonly


< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 4/5/2016 3:56:51 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: National Health Care *FAIL* - 4/5/2016 5:43:28 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


Wrong again. From your own cite:
US smoking: 1028
Canada: 809
UK: 750
Norway: 534

Ie., when you compare healthcare - you have to have control for extraneous variables - such as smoking.

Obesity US 33%
Canada 26%
Germany 25%
Denmark 18%

Etc.

wrong again, there are more countries with better outcomes more efficaic outcomes with higher smoking rates. Of course its from my own cite, we dont expect actual credible fact and citations from you.

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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: National Health Care *FAIL* - 4/5/2016 5:45:10 PM   
mnottertail


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and obamacare didnt create smoking. So, nevertheless more universal healtcare countries have better outcomes than ours.

And longevity is certainly efficaic in terms of necessary and sufficient conditions to define it, It would be a desired outcome.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: National Health Care *FAIL* - 4/5/2016 6:27:51 PM   
Lucylastic


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ONE line stuck out in that wall of drivel
Treatment for heart disease is also superior in the United States.
That is only true in diagnosed patients who can afford the treatment
It is VASTLY worse for people who cant afford to get a diagnosis. OR afford treatment.
And now thanks to obamacare, they can (some of them) get to see a doc, get a diagnosis and treatment.



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RE: National Health Care *FAIL* - 4/5/2016 8:52:47 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

ONE line stuck out in that wall of drivel
Treatment for heart disease is also superior in the United States.
That is only true in diagnosed patients who can afford the treatment
It is VASTLY worse for people who cant afford to get a diagnosis. OR afford treatment.
And now thanks to obamacare, they can (some of them) get to see a doc, get a diagnosis and treatment.





dunno I have seen and heard of some damn good preliminary work done by practicing nurses. (for free)

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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: National Health Care *FAIL* - 4/5/2016 8:54:22 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

and obamacare didnt create smoking. So, nevertheless more universal healtcare countries have better outcomes than ours.

And longevity is certainly efficaic in terms of necessary and sufficient conditions to define it, It would be a desired outcome.



best case its temporary until money gets tight as extortion takes its toll. that is after all the road all gubblemint services take.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: National Health Care *FAIL* - 4/5/2016 10:11:08 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

ONE line stuck out in that wall of drivel
Treatment for heart disease is also superior in the United States.
That is only true in diagnosed patients who can afford the treatment
It is VASTLY worse for people who cant afford to get a diagnosis. OR afford treatment.
And now thanks to obamacare, they can (some of them) get to see a doc, get a diagnosis and treatment.




Thank you for conceding that I am correct. Not that the statistics actually make your point: they don't. The US is actually superior on health care even when you consider all people regardless of the ability to pay. Under Emtala, no hospital is allowed to turn away a patient requiring life threatening care, regardless of ability to pay. Its been the law here since 1986.

So, while you may not be allowed to become a Canadian citizen if you have a heart condition, in the United States, you will get care regardless of your ability to pay.

But thank you for finally recognizing that the question of paying for / access to healthcare is a different question than the efficacy of health care. Now that we've established that US health care is in fact superior, we are free to have a discussion about what can we do to enable people to access it better.

But you can't have an honest debate when the other side insists on framing the debate dishonestly. Ie., trying to represent that medical efficacy in the US is substandard, when in fact it is preeminent.

If you want to say the US has access problems - fine. If you want to say we should do more to help poor people - I couldn't agree with you more.
But the debate is framed dishonestly in order to lead the charge towards socializing medicine. You have a much harder time saying "socialize medicine" when it is correctly pointed out that US medical care is one of the best - and most expensive in the world.

Much easier to say fix it, when you cook the statistics to say it sucks. Easier, but dishonest.

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RE: National Health Care *FAIL* - 4/6/2016 5:23:52 AM   
mnottertail


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No. #epic #fail. One measure of efficacy would be of you are alive. (you do understand the word, right?)

It is not substandard, (for those who are able to avail themselves of it) nor is it preeminent, it is sort of mediocre by all real measures.

Hapless Hooverisms is not actual fact, he is what the second worst and useless president behind number 2 ronald reagan, who is behind W (who is number one) but before nixon?

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 4/6/2016 6:11:30 AM >


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RE: National Health Care *FAIL* - 4/6/2016 6:03:28 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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This is the problem with Phydeaux, everything they drag up as 'evidence' compares those in the US who can afford and avail themselves of treatments with general healthcare given by other countries.
Which is why, when you look at comparisons as a whole for all the population across the whole spectrum of healthcare, the US come out pretty low compared to socialized healthcare.
One graph I saw showed the US life expectancy at only 78 (with very few lower than that figure) and yet they were the only ones waaay off to the side when it came to cost per capita.
Several tables I saw didn't put the US in the top 30 either.
In fact, just about every 'general' comparison I came across (however they did their different measurements), put the US way down the list compared to just about every other first-world country.
And when you see those on a cost-per-capita comparison, the US hits rock bottom.
Phydeaux cherry-picks the evidence.

'mediocre by all real measures' just about sums it up.... mediocre.

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Profile   Post #: 152
RE: National Health Care *FAIL* - 4/6/2016 6:14:29 AM   
mnottertail


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well, the whole idea that life is not tied to a healthcare effacacy he spouts from some fucking idiotic place is laughable on its face.

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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: National Health Care *FAIL* - 4/6/2016 6:17:08 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


Phydeaux cherry-picks the evidence.

'mediocre by all real measures' just about sums it up.... mediocre.


Cherry picking the evidence? Virtually every direct comparison of treatment results says the same thing, when you control for other factors. Health outcomes in the US are better than any other country.

Dwarf, I have addressed the question of life expectancy. Instead of just restating your position without accounting for my points - lets debate them.
Why do you think life expectancy - which includes things like low birthweight problems from drug addictions - which occurs more per capita in the US than most industrialized countries - is a suitable measure for medical efficacy?

Similarly we have a lot of gun violence.
Similarly we have a lot of obesity problems.
Similarly we have a lot of immigration from countries with no medical care, and substandard food.
Similarly we had more cumulative exposure to smoking..

We additionally have vastlyl more disparate populations than most european nations - we are far less homogenized. Different diseases affect different races - TaySaichs (sp?), malaria, sickle cell. We are more geographically diverse than most european nations - we get both dengue fever, lyme disease -

So why do you think life expectancy is the appropriate way to measure medical care.

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RE: National Health Care *FAIL* - 4/6/2016 6:21:30 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Thank you for conceding that I am correct.

No one has conceded that you are correct about anything. What those of us with a three digit iq and a pulse have noticed is that you are dumber than a stone and as ignorant as a post.

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RE: National Health Care *FAIL* - 4/6/2016 6:26:46 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Cherry picking the evidence? Virtually every direct comparison of treatment results says the same thing, when you control for other factors. Health outcomes in the US are better than any other country.

You can repeat that lie until hell freezes over. It does not make it true.


Similarly we have a lot of immigration from countries with no medical care, and substandard food.

Which countries would those be?


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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: National Health Care *FAIL* - 4/6/2016 6:26:48 AM   
Lucylastic


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Abstract

This analysis draws upon data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development and other cross-national analyses to compare health care spending, supply, utilization, prices, and health outcomes across 13 high-income countries: Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Japan, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, and the United States. These data predate the major insurance provisions of the Affordable Care Act. In 2013, the U.S. spent far more on health care than these other countries. Higher spending appeared to be largely driven by greater use of medical technology and higher health care prices, rather than more frequent doctor visits or hospital admissions. In contrast, U.S. spending on social services made up a relatively small share of the economy relative to other countries. Despite spending more on health care, Americans had poor health outcomes, including shorter life expectancy and greater prevalence of chronic conditions.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2015/oct/us-health-care-from-a-global-perspective

Actually I was calling your non sourced post was a wall of drivel, and argued why, one line specifically was utter bullshit.
COnsidering you spend DOUBLE other countries health care costs, you would think you would outperform better than all countries, but you dont. not even close... efficacy only counts if it uses the entire citizenry, not those who can afford it.
Not counting all those millions who dont have ANY coverage or insurance.
Red states are performing far worse than expected and pulled UP by the "rich.
efficacy my arse. when you control for other factors.....LOL yeah like the number of people who cant get a diagnosis beyond a death certificate.


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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: National Health Care *FAIL* - 4/6/2016 6:32:14 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Thank you for conceding that I am correct.

No one has conceded that you are correct about anything. What those of us with a three digit iq and a pulse have noticed is that you are dumber than a stone and as ignorant as a post.



So thompson - when you said you don't insult people without being insulted first.. what was that? There's a word for it...

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Profile   Post #: 158
RE: National Health Care *FAIL* - 4/6/2016 6:42:16 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Abstract

This analysis draws upon data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development and other cross-national analyses to compare health care spending, supply, utilization, prices, and health outcomes across 13 high-income countries: Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Japan, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, and the United States. These data predate the major insurance provisions of the Affordable Care Act. In 2013, the U.S. spent far more on health care than these other countries. Higher spending appeared to be largely driven by greater use of medical technology and higher health care prices, rather than more frequent doctor visits or hospital admissions. In contrast, U.S. spending on social services made up a relatively small share of the economy relative to other countries. Despite spending more on health care, Americans had poor health outcomes, including shorter life expectancy and greater prevalence of chronic conditions.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2015/oct/us-health-care-from-a-global-perspective

Actually I was calling your non sourced post was a wall of drivel, and argued why, one line specifically was utter bullshit.
COnsidering you spend DOUBLE other countries health care costs, you would think you would outperform better than all countries, but you dont. not even close... efficacy only counts if it uses the entire citizenry, not those who can afford it.
Not counting all those millions who dont have ANY coverage or insurance.
Red states are performing far worse than expected and pulled UP by the "rich.
efficacy my arse. when you control for other factors.....LOL yeah like the number of people who cant get a diagnosis beyond a death certificate.



1. If you actually bothered to read, the source is posted on the last line.
2. Healthcare efficacy is not measured by including people that don't get care. As I said earlier if you wish to say the US doesn't do enough for its poor people - fine. If you wish to say its suffers from a capitalist perspective and doesn't have enough health care for the poor - fine.
3. As for the US spending more. 5.2% of the US spending (gdp basis) is on elective procedures. Once you normalize these figures, we are paying 50% more for care that is 36% better than the UK. Sounds like a great deal to me.



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RE: National Health Care *FAIL* - 4/6/2016 6:43:59 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


Phydeaux cherry-picks the evidence.

'mediocre by all real measures' just about sums it up.... mediocre.


Cherry picking the evidence? Virtually every direct comparison of treatment results says the same thing, when you control for other factors. Health outcomes in the US are better than any other country.

Dwarf, I have addressed the question of life expectancy. Instead of just restating your position without accounting for my points - lets debate them.
Why do you think life expectancy - which includes things like low birthweight problems from drug addictions - which occurs more per capita in the US than most industrialized countries - is a suitable measure for medical efficacy?

Similarly we have a lot of gun violence.
Similarly we have a lot of obesity problems.
Similarly we have a lot of immigration from countries with no medical care, and substandard food.
Similarly we had more cumulative exposure to smoking..

We additionally have vastlyl more disparate populations than most european nations - we are far less homogenized. Different diseases affect different races - TaySaichs (sp?), malaria, sickle cell. We are more geographically diverse than most european nations - we get both dengue fever, lyme disease -

So why do you think life expectancy is the appropriate way to measure medical care.

Where did I say that life expectancy is an appropriate way to measure medical care??
I haven't. Nice twist on words tho.

And yes, I say cherry-picking the evidence because everywhere else I look shows the US way down the list.
I looked thru many sites, including independent ones like the OECD and WHO and the US is still way down the list.
In just about every measure (when comparing across the board), the US doesn't fare very well.

I don't blame the actual care per se because if you can afford it and have access to it, the US is pretty good.
It's the lack of affordable access to it due to greedy profiteering insurance companies and big pharma jacking up the prices for private medical care.
I don't see anywhere else in first-world countries where people die from affordability or go bankrupt as a result of healthcare costs. This only happens in the US.


_____________________________

If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 160
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