RE: Fetish delivery system vs financial delivery system (Full Version)

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LadyPact -> RE: Fetish delivery system vs financial delivery system (4/14/2016 3:46:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: respectmen
Ladypact
You can think you are the "scene queen" all you want. I think nearly every guy out there is simply interested in if you provide what he likes or not. You seem to be using this discussion to boast about yourself. I don't think nearly everyone in this forum gives a fuck. You can think you are shit hot all you want, that doesn't mean others think so.

That said, you boasting about your self has absolutely nothing to do with what this thread is supposed to be about. When I start threads, it's funny when people can't actually challenge what I said right from the beginning, they need to keep shifting the goalpost.

With the exception of those folks who are in a relationship that live with, or live in close proximity to their partner, I probably play more than most people on the forums. (Let's be clear. That's casual BDSM, not casual sex.) There are various reasons for that and it is not all just because I'm female.

quote:

Okay, so you don't have a problem with it and yet you are in this thread having a go at me.

I'm not 'having a go' at you. I'm telling you that, as a top, it's easier for me to find people to do things to, than it is for you as a bottom to find people willing to do things to you.

quote:

Yep, you have been going on and on about this and I have told you what I think. But what exactly has this got to do with what I explained in the very first post in this thread? Why did you feel the need to shift the goalpost about what toys you own? Bottoms/subs have toys and others don't, switches have toys and others don't, tops/dominants have toys and others don't. Get over it.

My position is, if you want things done to you, it is just as much your responsibility to make that happen. Don't just show up and say 'do me'. I can beat somebody just as well whether they are blindfolded or not, restrained or not, gagged or not. None of those things enhance my scene experience as the top. If you know you like wooden paddles, rather than leather straps, bring it. Same thing goes if you prefer jute to hemp or any other thing that isn't going to matter to me but it will to you.

Switches are actually awesome about this. However, just in my observation, female bottoms are more likely to bring their bottoming gear than males. Especially if it's anything related to the words "fluid" or "contaminant".


quote:

This isn't about toys. What next? Who owns the best bed?

If you want to be tied to one, sure. If you've got that fantasy of being tied to a huge four poster bed, I'd suggest you facilitate making that happen.

quote:

So how come males are commonly bashed and put down with the "fetish delivery system" shaming tactic when toys aren't even mentioned or discussed in them said discussions?

Oh, you're done bashing me now and want to get back to the topic? Cool.

In my observation, women are less interested in "casual" than men are. There's an overabundance of men who want casual compared to the number of women that do. It's not really the case of 'you want casual, I want casual' that you want to suggest is how this works out. Women are far more likely to consider sex to be an intimate act, engage in BDSM only in relationships, and a bunch of other stuff that shows us that, even though women comprise half of the population on the planet, there is no 1:1 ratio of women who want the casual that you want. Even women who do want to engage in casual sex are more likely to have a friend with benefits than engage in one night stands.

Those numbers and percentages tend to compound. If there are five guys who want casual compared to that one woman. Even if out of every 5:1, two people who hook up, there are still four guys who are left over. That means the next day it's 9:1, so on, and so on.

quote:

Look, I really don't give a toss what you think. You try to come off as some BDSM expert and/or scene queen and try to be condescending to others with your lectures. There are lots of people on these BDSM sites who play privately and not in clubs. Everyone has their different preferences. Just because they aren't yours, it doesn't mean they are wrong.

OK, we're back to bashing me again. If you play at home, I don't care. You might as well ask me how invested I am in how many couples on my street had sex last night.

quote:

I don't give a flying fuck about clubs and I don't give a flying fuck what rules others make in the BDSM scene. Me and the person I play with make our own rules/agreements together that only apply to us. We shouldn't have to follow some ruling system just because a so called scene queen said it we have to.

Cool. Have fun, you and the person you're playing with. Better hope that the last person your partner was playing with isn't using that unclean warternberg wheel on you after her last "no rules" partner.

quote:

So in other words, a bottom isn't entitled to seek what he simply wants unless he pays for it?...and them wants are the very reason why this certain bottom entered the BDSM scene to begin with. Yet, he is just supposed to forget about those lol.

No. Seek all you want. I just think obtaining what you want is another subject.

quote:

So are you expecting them to be mindless robots? They shouldn't have a personality of their own? A mind of their own? Which comes with having kinks of their own? What makes them so damn bad to seek kinks in the scene that brung them to the scene to begin with? What makes them so damn bad to seek something that they simply want?

Not a thing. Doesn't mean I have to be their fetish provider.

If we have kinks that match up, that's great! Have kinks that I'm not going to enjoy? My advice would be to find another top.

quote:

Jesus fucking christ, you have no consideration, don't you? Yet you expect others to consider your wants. Pure hypocrisy!

You're a bit off. Nobody in this has to consider *my* wants. If you don't want to engage in what I want to engage in, don't, 'cause I'll find somebody who will.

quote:

Do you really want sexual liberation or don't you?

You ask this like I'm supposed to care who you have sex with or if it should be held against you in some way. Who you have sex with doesn't involve me in the slightest. However, if who you have sex with (between consenting adults) allows other people to think they have the right to treat you like a lesser human being when it comes to food, shelter, or basic human rights? That's a whole other issue.

quote:

If you do, you don't get to dictate someone else's sexuality.

No, honey. I get to dictate mine.

quote:

You don't get to dictate when they can and can't mention their sexuality. You don't get to dictate if they are right or wrong to want what's involved in their sexuality.

Actually, I do. If they try to directly involve me in it, I get to say "not interested". You want to "mention it" and have interactions with those who are willing recipients? Have a party. Try to force me into your sexuality? That's not going to go well.

quote:

I am so sick and tired of self centered, bigoted, hypocritical, women in here always trying to tell men what to do with their sexuality and always holding extreme prejudice and bias against male sexuality. Yet on the other hand they are all in for female sexual liberation of course. How dare men try to tell women what to do with their sexuality.

Ummmm... I don't care if you want to get your dick wet, as long as the person you're doing it with is a willing participant and an of age adult.

It's not prejudice. It's preference.

Nobody is forcing you to engage in their kinks or to have sex. I hear sexual activity goes on a huge increase in elderly care homes. Are you offering your "services" to the octogenarians? I'll bet you're not.

quote:

When you said this:

"No, it's not a mutual agreement. It's not an agreement until the two people say they are going to play together."

Which is implying that I don't mean this exact thing. If I don't mean this exact thing, it would be rape or sexual assault. Why did you even say that sentence to begin with?

'Cause you're missing the point.

"You want casual and I want casual" is not enough.

quote:

If he is being pushy or pissed off that you don't like his ideas, I can see your point. But the problem I see (I'm not saying you) is that women crack a fit over just a male simply offering it which is different to being pushy and demanding.

Jesus! Finally! Something we agree on.

Can I be frank? Most women already know you're "offering it". If somebody walked up to me in the grocery store and told me they wanted to f^ck me the way some people think is socially acceptable because it's *just* in an email... Let's get with the program here. It's not cool. Am I supposed to be OK with that?

quote:

How the fuck exactly can a male get what he wants when if he ask for it, women think it's wrong to do so?...like the the " fetish delivery system" shaming tactic. Do many women in here ever consider the males point of view at all?

Do I? No. I really don't care whether you have an orgasm today anymore than you care if I do. Ask yourself the bottom line question. Out of seven BILLION people on the planet, who do you really care gets their sexual needs met?

quote:

You will never know unless you ask. Women certainly hardly do the approaching and courting work to make things happen. Women mostly expect men to do most or all the work and then whinge that they get too many males asking them to play.

If women got off their fat asses and did some searching and approached people more often, they would get far less unwanted emails. But as it stands, women generally expect men to do all that work and then complain why they get too many emails asking them the same things over and over.

I can promise you for a FACT that's not true. You jut spent a shitload of time complaining that I'm a club player. What I do at the club, who I play with, or any of that, doesn't effect my email in the slightest.

quote:

I haven't bothered trying to chat chicks up in the BDSM scene for a long time now. At least 4 years. Kinky chicks in vanilla sites and the real world seem at least more open minded towards male sexuality than what you see in these BDSM sites. But there is still a lot of bigotry against male sexuality outside the BDSM scene of course. My point is that it seems worse here when ironically you would think a place like this would be more open.

A chick outside the BDSM scene has never told me I want a fetish delivery system or I'm a "do me". Many women in the BDSM scene though seem that they just don't want male sexuality to be free.

Really? You've never heard some equivalent of "you're just trying to use me for sex?" Never? Not once?

Are you quite sure you're not full of shit?



littleclip -> RE: Fetish delivery system vs financial delivery system (4/14/2016 4:23:38 PM)

[sm=agree.gif][sm=goodpost.gif][sm=line.gif][sm=lol.gif][sm=mistress.gif][sm=piqued_smiley.gif][sm=popcorn.gif][sm=preen.gif][sm=sharepopcorn.gif][sm=smoking.gif][sm=thanks.gif][sm=yourock.gif]
i so love it seeing the trols get naild by one of the best Dommee you could ever meet



respectmen -> RE: Fetish delivery system vs financial delivery system (4/15/2016 12:24:11 PM)

freedomdwarf1

quote:

Those who are successful at luring/catching/keeping their target do so by treating people as people first.
This is true of all genders.


No, except for women, people usually give women a pussypass for it. Or not if that by some folk, it takes a hell lot more to deem women suspicious of that behaviour. While for a male the suspicion is there by default, the first second he opens his mouth about his kinks.

I'm even being accused which is no surprise, even that I have not indicated at all that women are only good for my dick. Simply because I'm a male and raised such a topic...

As to what this thread is partly about, I am sure you think it's justified because you're a gynocentric fuckwit, women pretty much get away with the exact behaviour that you and others in this thread are criticising men for. Which is utterly disgusting hypocrisy. But what else can you expect from a forum that's dominated by gynocentric thinking.

As to what this thread is also partly about, it's perfectly acceptable in your mind, and people of your ilk, to think pro dommes can seek a financial delivery system and would have nothing to do with men otherwise if they weren't throwing her 100 dollar bills. That's not treating men as people, that's treating men as ATMs.

That said, all what ladypact has been saying, if a male was carrying on with what toys a woman owns etc in the same fashion as LP, he would no doubt be criticised for only wanting a fetish delivery system.

Even a 10 year old who reads these forums would know that women endlessly whine about that they want to be treated as people and not just a fetish delivery system. I roll my eyes every time I see people say it now because I've seen it said probably at least a million times.

One of the problems that everyone in this thread keeps dodging is that men get shamed with the "fetish delivery system" tactic just for fucking simply expressing what kinks they are seeking. There is usually no evidence at all that a male happens to only want to get off from a woman and think that's all she is good for. He is simply judged this way because he is a fucking male.

It's socially accepted bigotry. You are placing prejudice against a person based on their gender. That's supposed to be allll okay because the bigotry is against men and not women. Social sensitivity against bigotry only exist for women and minority groups.

quote:

You are in a very small minority of self-entitled men who carry a huge chip on their sagging shoulders.


Small minority? At least you give an lenient judgement compared to many others out there.

Self entitled? The pure hypocrisy and the pure irony in this is that it's so acceptable for a woman to think she is entitled to only the top handful of men in her area, while it's so bad and "self entitled" for a male to think he deserves the average woman lol.

So the ones with the lesser sense of entitlement (men) get criticised for their sense of entitlement while the ones with the FAR BIGGER sense of entitlement (women) get given a pass for theirs.

Where's all this male privilege that feminists keep talking about again? Gotta larf

quote:

And we know that because you simply cannot see the nuances in behaviour and are thus treated badly.
Why is this??


You simply cannot see the nuances of prejudice against a person based on their gender. You also cannot see the nuances of double standards.

quote:

Because most of us LEARN the difference and adjust accordingly and generally reap the benefits.
You, and a few like you, don't seem to learn the differences and continue to carry that chip on your shoulder.


Some of us learn that bigotry and hypocrisy is wrong, regardless which gender is the victim of it.

quote:

Pick any of your posts, from any of your ID's Nick - they are all the same.
Same old shit. Same old broken record.
You really haven't learnt a single thing have you?
You see men through blinkered lenses and feel they are hard done by.
Why? Because you either cannot, or refuse to accept that your views are counter-productive.
You constantly come over as a whiny old asshat that really hasn't a clue of the real world.


Is this all you got? Gotta larf

Are you borderline retarded or something?

I wonder why there is a problem with you proving a backbone to your own claim?

quote:

It's all a matter of presentation.
Success is laying it all out neatly with that personal touch.
Failure is just demanding and insisting on dishing out from a closed box.

Men are different, yes. That is an indeniable fact.
But to be an asshat takes determination of a cold nature.

It's a bit like the old saying: I want, don't get.
Unless you are a thick, uneducated moron, you learn to ask, not demand.


As for presentation, when men are against a social stigma that's unfair to men, we get told to shut up and get with the program. When women/feminists are against a social stigma that's unfair to women, social justice!

I never implied that I condone people who demand and not ask. I actually made it very clear in my last reply to LP. But as it seems, you're too dumb to comprehend that.

Speaking of being uneducated, "indeniable" isn't a word. The correct word for that is "undeniable".

quote:

And you wonder why people see you as you are?
Myopic, uneducated, blinkered, unwilling to learn, obtuse, self-entitled.... but ultimately, wrong.


I'm not the one that see's everything in gynocentric rose coloured glasses. Remember what you have said in the past, men have to do the dance for the pussy.

So I don't think you are in a position to ummm educate me ROFL. You don't seem capable of that.

ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Nobody said they were, just that we aren't interested in fulfilling their kinks.


Ohhh how odd saying that when it's usually mentioned in these forums, even in this thread, men interested in fulfilling their kinks aren't seeing women as people, they only want a fetish delivery system, they are "do me".

I guess you missed all of that. Hahaha

None so blind as those who will not see.

ReMakeYou

quote:

Will you acknowledge any or all of the following:
They're not interested in the offer.
Being repeatedly offered something you don't want, even if it's from different people, is annoying.
Men who similarly see a lot of unwanted offers can be even more harsh.


So a male did a crime for asking if they are interested? What an evil mutherfucker! I guess we are all supposed to be mind readers now? How is a male supposed to know if a woman is interested or not if he doesn't ask?

Women (not all women) generally expect men to do most or all the work when it comes to courting. That's why it's mostly men doing the first contact. Yet, these women whinge about repeatedly getting offered something they don't want. Maybe if these women got off their arse and tried like men to get what they want, they wouldn't need to remain on the site unsatisfied for long. They would probably finally be satisfied with what they find and not need to remain on this site with all the unwanted emails. But that said, 99 percent of males on the site probably aren't good enough for them anyway. So even if they did, it would be the same result.

LadyPact

quote:

I'm not 'having a go' at you. I'm telling you that, as a top, it's easier for me to find people to do things to, than it is for you as a bottom to find people willing to do things to you.


Though, I doubt male tops have it as easy as female bottoms on a general basis to get their kinks on.

That said, no one is giving the other more. The top doesn't just top people for the sake of it. A top is going to top someone because they get off from it too, they want it just as much as the bottom.

quote:

My position is, if you want things done to you, it is just as much your responsibility to make that happen. Don't just show up and say 'do me'.


With all the women I have played with over the years, there has never been an issue between us with toys. From saying this, of course either of us may have not had something that we really wanted involved in play. We compromised and worked that out to get that certain thing or make that certain thing happen. The point is, I have never played with someone that was anal about it.

I really don't understand why you keep trying to imply this on me. This has never been an issue for me. I guess because I'm not anal about toys and the people who I played with weren't neither.

quote:

In my observation, women are less interested in "casual" than men are. There's an overabundance of men who want casual compared to the number of women that do. It's not really the case of 'you want casual, I want casual' that you want to suggest is how this works out. Women are far more likely to consider sex to be an intimate act, engage in BDSM only in relationships, and a bunch of other stuff that shows us that, even though women comprise half of the population on the planet, there is no 1:1 ratio of women who want the casual that you want. Even women who do want to engage in casual sex are more likely to have a friend with benefits than engage in one night stands.


Firstly, I have never mentioned anywhere in here that I'm seeking sexual intercourse. However, I seek sexual gratification, sexual play. Of course there is going to be that prejudice that just because I'm a male, I'm hungry for sex. Some dommes in the past have actually told me that many male subs/bottoms they have came across aren't interested in sexual intercourse at all or they are only a little interested. They just only or mostly want sexual gratification. That's how I see myself.

Here is how I stand, when it comes to casual, I don't seek or expect and/or ask for sexual intercourse at all! But I wouldn't have it as a limitation. If she wants it, I give.

So now that is cleared out the way, I think I would be on the same page of most women in BDSM who seek casual when it comes to sexual intercourse.

quote:

Cool. Have fun, you and the person you're playing with. Better hope that the last person your partner was playing with isn't using that unclean warternberg wheel on you after her last "no rules" partner.


Of course, all people who attend clubs are innocent and clean their toys. Rolls eyes

quote:

No. Seek all you want. I just think obtaining what you want is another subject.


Yes it is, and being a bigot about it is going backwards, not forward, when it comes to fairness and understanding for all. Men shouldn't get bashed all the time for seeking their kinks to be fulfilled.

quote:

Doesn't mean I have to be their fetish provider.


I'm certainly not thinking a woman has to be just because I want her to be and I believe most men would think the same. Many women keep claiming that men believe women owe it to them out of thin air.

quote:

If we have kinks that match up, that's great! Have kinks that I'm not going to enjoy? My advice would be to find another top.


And why are you telling me this? Because you think I don't know?


quote:

You're a bit off. Nobody in this has to consider *my* wants. If you don't want to engage in what I want to engage in, don't, 'cause I'll find somebody who will.


Here is the problem. You said this in an earlier post:

"Do-me the way I want to get done" is the easiest way to get scratched off of my dance card."

But it seems okay for you to want it the way you want things done. Now can you see the hypocrisy?

quote:

You ask this like I'm supposed to care who you have sex with or if it should be held against you in some way. Who you have sex with doesn't involve me in the slightest. However, if who you have sex with (between consenting adults) allows other people to think they have the right to treat you like a lesser human being when it comes to food, shelter, or basic human rights? That's a whole other issue.


Nope, I don't expect you to care about who I have sex with. That's not what it's about at all. What this is about is men being judged as "do me" just for simply having their certain kinks and niches. That's what they get sexual gratification from and people who try to create barriers for it such as using the "do me" tactic don't seem to want male sexuality to be liberated and free.

quote:

Actually, I do. If they try to directly involve me in it, I get to say "not interested". You want to "mention it" and have interactions with those who are willing recipients? Have a party. Try to force me into your sexuality? That's not going to go well.


And as I have explained over and over in here, I have never indicated at all that I want to force women to be involved or think that women owe it to me. But as usual, women keep making this accusation out of thin air.

quote:

Ummmm... I don't care if you want to get your dick wet, as long as the person you're doing it with is a willing participant and an of age adult.


Yawn and here you are again seemly thinking that I am also meaning an unwilling participant. Is it because I'm a male?

quote:

'Cause you're missing the point.

"You want casual and I want casual" is not enough.


It's you who is missing the point as I have explained very clearly in earlier posts that there is more to me wanting casual and the woman wanting casual too. She has to want me too if there is going to be play. I don't expect a woman to play with me if she simply doesn't want me but still likes casual play with others

How many more times do I have to explain this? I could probably explain this a 1000 times in a 1000 different ways and it will still just go through one ear and out the other due to people being too clouded by their biases.

quote:

Can I be frank? Most women already know you're "offering it". If somebody walked up to me in the grocery store and told me they wanted to f^ck me the way some people think is socially acceptable because it's *just* in an email... Let's get with the program here. It's not cool. Am I supposed to be OK with that?


Right, so you are saying a man is doing a crime to simply offer women kinky play on a BDSM website?

quote:

Do I? No. I really don't care whether you have an orgasm today anymore than you care if I do. Ask yourself the bottom line question. Out of seven BILLION people on the planet, who do you really care gets their sexual needs met?


You are missing the whole point. How do people get things they want in this world if they don't ask for it and/or try for it? You have to have ambition to get most things in life, yes? It's not the point of if you care or you don't care. The point is, why is it so fucking wrong for a male to simply seek and ask for what he wants?

If he doesn't ask women for what he exactly wants, how the fuck is he going to get it? Magic?

When men have bitter attitudes towards what women want from men, they are usually labelled as bitter misogynists and it would be considered as anti social behaviour. Yet, it's the norm for women to have a huge fucking bug up their arse about what men want from women. Fucking laughable.

quote:

I can promise you for a FACT that's not true. You jut spent a shitload of time complaining that I'm a club player. What I do at the club, who I play with, or any of that, doesn't effect my email in the slightest.


Roughly, what percentage of people who hang in BDSM sites attend clubs? Most women I have played with in the past had no interest in clubs. Clubs, or BDSM events in general, is usually a topic that comes up between me and the person I play with at some point.

quote:

Really? You've never heard some equivalent of "you're just trying to use me for sex?" Never? Not once?

Are you quite sure you're not full of shit?


Yep, I'm sure. "You're just trying to use me for sex" is a same old tired tune in any place in the world you go...as I mentioned in my earlier posts that bigotry against male sexually certainly exist outside the BDSM scene.

My whole point to this certain thing was that when I pick up a chick who likes to get kinky anywhere else besides a BDSM site, I have never came across one that used such labels on me like "do me' or "fetish delivery system" in the means that my kinks are less important than hers and my kinks are just self serving while hers are innocent.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Fetish delivery system vs financial delivery system (4/15/2016 2:11:11 PM)

Oh ffs, get laid, obviously you need to pay for it, but just do it, then get rid of the chip of your shoulder, sober up, see the world how it really is, talk to women like human beings, and you might actually get somewhere.

The sour grapes shit is getting tiresome it's fucking YOU and to be honest, the way you present yourself, I doubt you could get laid in a monkey brothel covered in bananas. Or else keep on holding your pity party, at least you don't have to worry that a woman will ever use you just for sex. Yes your fucking kinks are less important than mine, simply because you are not interesting, you got nothing to offer, trust me dude, a woman who wants you might be open to your kinks and wants, if we find a guy REPULSIVE, we are NOT



PeonForHer -> RE: Fetish delivery system vs financial delivery system (4/15/2016 3:15:29 PM)

FR

Anybody else find a way past these sorts of arguments - deadlocked as they always seem to end up - by means of the line 'women are the gatekeepers of sex; men are the gatekeepers of relationships'? Sure gave me a bit of an epiphany, when I first read that. A sort of 'kerching, I think I get it!' moment.



jamirus -> RE: Fetish delivery system vs financial delivery system (4/15/2016 4:43:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: respectmen


quote:

You're a bit off. Nobody in this has to consider *my* wants. If you don't want to engage in what I want to engage in, don't, 'cause I'll find somebody who will.


Here is the problem. You said this in an earlier post:

"Do-me the way I want to get done" is the easiest way to get scratched off of my dance card."

But it seems okay for you to want it the way you want things done. Now can you see the hypocrisy?


I'll preface this by saying I'm 100% submissive, and i WANT Female relationships with male subs to succeed, which is why certain posters in this topic who claim to represent dominant women leave such a bad taste in my mouth and are non-representative of what this scene needs to be moving forward.

This concise little bit of exchange is the exact reason he is right. And I love how the immediate response from the feminist side when presented with the hypocrisy devolves into nothing more than "FFS get laid!"

I don't like posting here since its mainly a cesspool, and usually the first people to point this stuff out take the most heat. But it will only fix itself when more people call it out.

Proof you've had society catered to you, the double standard he's talking about in the exact quote when you devolve the the 14 year old retort. Speaking of which, that binary quote I thought was so clever...also when I was 14. Proof being put on a pedestal impairs your ability to evolve in all things, including wit as you have to increase your abilities and value over your life.

I won't be sticking around in this topic because Big Brother will never admit when they are wrong and I don't want to feed their echo chamber and perversion of logic, just giving other men (and women who want to see F/m D/s change for the better) a chance to stand up when stuff is obviously not right, particularly when it comes to male submission and female dominants. Maybe no one here wants to stand up to this perverse echo-chamber, but I honestly think he's right, and probably a ton of other people do who feel this is a very pyrrhic battle based on the social hierarchy of this particular board. But that doesn't mean it can't change elsewhere to become better if more people decide to stop getting bullied by this crap. They aren't speaking up about it, and honestly I didn't want to either, but you'll find among the hee-hawing and how you chastise those who want respect for male subs (and therefore better partners for Female Dommes, its not that complicated)...and newbies, who you now see default as socks because you've driven virtually everyone else with a differing pov off the board... you probably have less support than you think, and everyone that learns more about it will cause it to slip further.



OsideGirl -> RE: Fetish delivery system vs financial delivery system (4/15/2016 4:50:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jamirus


Proof you've had society catered to you, the double standard he's talking about in the exact quote when you devolve the the 14 year old retort.


Let me ask you: When a cop stops a woman for a traffic infraction and she gets let go without a ticket. Who is responsible for that outcome?



PeonForHer -> RE: Fetish delivery system vs financial delivery system (4/15/2016 5:23:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: jamirus


Proof you've had society catered to you, the double standard he's talking about in the exact quote when you devolve the the 14 year old retort.


Let me ask you: When a cop stops a woman for a traffic infraction and she gets let go without a ticket. Who is responsible for that outcome?



God knows, well done for trying, OG. Occasionally I read a post and think, 'I've made many mistakes in my life, but at least I didn't make the mistake of getting myself born female'. [;)]




Zonie63 -> RE: Fetish delivery system vs financial delivery system (4/15/2016 6:24:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jamirus


quote:

ORIGINAL: respectmen


quote:

You're a bit off. Nobody in this has to consider *my* wants. If you don't want to engage in what I want to engage in, don't, 'cause I'll find somebody who will.


Here is the problem. You said this in an earlier post:

"Do-me the way I want to get done" is the easiest way to get scratched off of my dance card."

But it seems okay for you to want it the way you want things done. Now can you see the hypocrisy?


I'll preface this by saying I'm 100% submissive, and i WANT Female relationships with male subs to succeed, which is why certain posters in this topic who claim to represent dominant women leave such a bad taste in my mouth and are non-representative of what this scene needs to be moving forward.

This concise little bit of exchange is the exact reason he is right. And I love how the immediate response from the feminist side when presented with the hypocrisy devolves into nothing more than "FFS get laid!"

I don't like posting here since its mainly a cesspool, and usually the first people to point this stuff out take the most heat. But it will only fix itself when more people call it out.

Proof you've had society catered to you, the double standard he's talking about in the exact quote when you devolve the the 14 year old retort. Speaking of which, that binary quote I thought was so clever...also when I was 14. Proof being put on a pedestal impairs your ability to evolve in all things, including wit as you have to increase your abilities and value over your life.

I won't be sticking around in this topic because Big Brother will never admit when they are wrong and I don't want to feed their echo chamber and perversion of logic, just giving other men (and women who want to see F/m D/s change for the better) a chance to stand up when stuff is obviously not right, particularly when it comes to male submission and female dominants. Maybe no one here wants to stand up to this perverse echo-chamber, but I honestly think he's right, and probably a ton of other people do who feel this is a very pyrrhic battle based on the social hierarchy of this particular board. But that doesn't mean it can't change elsewhere to become better if more people decide to stop getting bullied by this crap. They aren't speaking up about it, and honestly I didn't want to either, but you'll find among the hee-hawing and how you chastise those who want respect for male subs (and therefore better partners for Female Dommes, its not that complicated)...and newbies, who you now see default as socks because you've driven virtually everyone else with a differing pov off the board... you probably have less support than you think, and everyone that learns more about it will cause it to slip further.


I think some of the OP's positions have had merit, and it's true that there a lot of double standards out there. I think the main complaint that many people have is that there's nothing really productive about endlessly harping about it without entertaining any real solutions.

I recall a few years ago, the OP (under another screen name) was complaining about how there weren't very many shelters or services available for male victims of domestic violence. Every feminist poster here agreed with him on that basic premise and said that it was wrong. Another time was when the topic of women raping men came up, and it seemed that everyone agreed that rape was wrong and should be stopped. I would read these threads and wonder, if everyone agrees on all the basic points, what's all the arguing about? Then he posted all these videos of one or a few feminists saying crazy things or behaving badly and saying "You see?" and suggesting that all of feminism was like that.

I think the problem many have here with the OP is that he complains but doesn't offer any solutions. I even asked upthread in post #53, "What is the solution?"


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I've read similar discussions in other forums, and it seems that the basic underlying premise of your arguments is basically this:

- "Equal" should mean "equal" on a consistent basis, with no exceptions or double standards whatsoever.

If this is your position, then I would agree that you have a point. If one purportedly favors a system of gender equality, then it's fair comment to call them out if they support a policy or demonstrate an attitude which appears to contradict the premise of gender equality.

But I'm not sure what kind of conclusions or proposals this might be leading to. What is the solution? What would you propose?

1. Should we, as a society, become even more proactive and double-down with a no-nonsense campaign that "equality means equality" no matter what, without exceptions, double standards, indulgences, or special dispensation? Couldn't that solve most of the issues you're addressing?

or

2. Are you using these examples of double standards as evidence that gender equality is an untenable, impractical, and impossible goal to achieve and that it should be abandoned entirely? Should we go back to the old order, since we're going to have double standards anyway?

Which of these comes closer to your true position?


This post went unanswered and unaddressed.




OsideGirl -> RE: Fetish delivery system vs financial delivery system (4/15/2016 8:04:46 PM)

I actually just realized the irony of some posts here: Last week we had posts about women being rude when we don't accept male attention. Now we have posts about how terrible we are when we accept male attention. So, we're damned if we want the attention and damned if we don't.



stef -> RE: Fetish delivery system vs financial delivery system (4/15/2016 8:38:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: respectmen]

Are you borderline retarded or something?

You are the Emperor of Irony. Take a bow.



LadyPact -> RE: Fetish delivery system vs financial delivery system (4/17/2016 8:30:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: respectmen
LadyPact
Though, I doubt male tops have it as easy as female bottoms on a general basis to get their kinks on.

I can't speak to general anything because, in my observation, it depends on the male top. Certain male tops play rather consistently. Suspension riggers, fire players, wax people, and some forms of edge play.

quote:

That said, no one is giving the other more. The top doesn't just top people for the sake of it. A top is going to top someone because they get off from it too, they want it just as much as the bottom.

That' not entirely correct. I've topped for various reasons that aren't for the 'get off' angle. Stuff like scenes to show a club that I'm competent to do a certain type of play or for a group to decide if they want me to come present. I've done scenes to teach another top about a certain form of play. The occasional charity thing. I wrote a thread last month about an occasion where someone had asked me to service top for a milestone they had reached. I don't service top often but this was a case of a) I had been playing with the guy for about a year, b) he was a friend of mine, so it wasn't like it was just a request that I got through email, and c) I actually thought it was cool as no tomorrow that he asked me to do it.

quote:

With all the women I have played with over the years, there has never been an issue between us with toys. From saying this, of course either of us may have not had something that we really wanted involved in play. We compromised and worked that out to get that certain thing or make that certain thing happen. The point is, I have never played with someone that was anal about it.

I really don't understand why you keep trying to imply this on me. This has never been an issue for me. I guess because I'm not anal about toys and the people who I played with weren't neither.

I think it's more that we engage in different kinds of play.

quote:

Firstly, I have never mentioned anywhere in here that I'm seeking sexual intercourse. However, I seek sexual gratification, sexual play. Of course there is going to be that prejudice that just because I'm a male, I'm hungry for sex. Some dommes in the past have actually told me that many male subs/bottoms they have came across aren't interested in sexual intercourse at all or they are only a little interested. They just only or mostly want sexual gratification. That's how I see myself.

Here is how I stand, when it comes to casual, I don't seek or expect and/or ask for sexual intercourse at all! But I wouldn't have it as a limitation. If she wants it, I give.

The part that I put in bold is where the difference lies. It doesn't have to be that you're looking for sexual intercourse. Some folks doing casual aren't willing to tread into the 'sexual gratification' area with those whom they don't have a relationship. Even in the sex positive clubs that I attend, I'm just not seeing a lot of F/m casual/sexual play that's happening. I can't say anything about private hook-ups but even just what I see in the 'classified' type groups on the other site, this is where the 'casual' numbers start to drop.on the F side and increase on the m side.

quote:

So now that is cleared out the way, I think I would be on the same page of most women in BDSM who seek casual when it comes to sexual intercourse.

I'm not really in agreement with this but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because I don't read a lot of female Dominant profiles and those that I do, I'm not seeing a lot of them who are looking for casual sex or have it out there that they are focused on the sexual gratification of the male bottom.

quote:

Of course, all people who attend clubs are innocent and clean their toys. Rolls eyes

I'll just say I've got a little more faith in the person out there who hasn't acquired a bad reputation after playing in a particular club for a number of years. I don't mean to be cavalier but frankly, it's your ass.

quote:

Yes it is, and being a bigot about it is going backwards, not forward, when it comes to fairness and understanding for all. Men shouldn't get bashed all the time for seeking their kinks to be fulfilled.

There is no fairness and understanding when it comes to dating or play. Kink is not an 'everybody gets a turn' deal. If what person X is offering just isn't that appealing to the target demographic they are hoping to engage with, they aren't going to get a positive response.

quote:

I'm certainly not thinking a woman has to be just because I want her to be and I believe most men would think the same. Many women keep claiming that men believe women owe it to them out of thin air.

You do realize that not all men see it this way. I've exchanged emails with you in the past and if you are writing potentials in the same manner in which you communicate with me, you're probably ahead of the curve. What I want you to realize is that is not how it happens a majority of the time. This is the internet and people do not treat others as people a heck of a lot on a place like CM. If you don't believe that, spend a little time reading an area like Return to Sender.

quote:

And why are you telling me this? Because you think I don't know?

You'd be amazed how many people don't know.

quote:

Here is the problem. You said this in an earlier post:

"Do-me the way I want to get done" is the easiest way to get scratched off of my dance card."

But it seems okay for you to want it the way you want things done. Now can you see the hypocrisy?

Do you see that I'm saying that, not because I'm female, but because I'm the top? It's one of the fringe benefits.

If I'm conducting the actions, I'm going to make the decisions about the actions. As a top, just a top, no underlying dynamic of power exchange, when I negotiate even just an impact scene, a bottom can tell me that they have a hard limit about canes but they love paddles. If it's not a scene specifically about that the bottom wants to endure things they don't like or some similar angle, canes are out, but that doesn't necessarily mean that paddles are in. I'm going to use what I feel like using because once we've agreed that I'm the person controlling that scene, I'm in charge.

quote:

Nope, I don't expect you to care about who I have sex with. That's not what it's about at all. What this is about is men being judged as "do me" just for simply having their certain kinks and niches. That's what they get sexual gratification from and people who try to create barriers for it such as using the "do me" tactic don't seem to want male sexuality to be liberated and free.

That's not a barrier. Sorry, but there's a difference between you as a person being denied your sexuality as a singular entity than saying there's an aspect of it that is turning off the target demographic. You may be person A who really wants the same thing as person B and both are seeking person C to enjoy it with, but the finer nuances of human interaction are going to be why person C chooses one over the other.

quote:

And as I have explained over and over in here, I have never indicated at all that I want to force women to be involved or think that women owe it to me. But as usual, women keep making this accusation out of thin air.

If you are going to make this subject about categories of people, which you did, you have to deal with the fact that this is not based solely on you. In my opinion, you have to take all that comes with it, if you want to talk about generalizations.

quote:

Yawn and here you are again seemly thinking that I am also meaning an unwilling participant. Is it because I'm a male?

Would you like to have a really long talk about how many people in kink don't care about how the other party is "willing" or not? That's a much deeper subject than you're trying to explore on this thread.

quote:

It's you who is missing the point as I have explained very clearly in earlier posts that there is more to me wanting casual and the woman wanting casual too. She has to want me too if there is going to be play. I don't expect a woman to play with me if she simply doesn't want me but still likes casual play with others

I actually like you seeing this. It's a better attitude than some people have.

quote:

How many more times do I have to explain this? I could probably explain this a 1000 times in a 1000 different ways and it will still just go through one ear and out the other due to people being too clouded by their biases.

This is no different than your perspective because you want to look at these things through those gender colored glasses that you have. I didn't see you complaining recently when there was a MAN who should up on the forums who was a complete jerk because he thought he was owed "tribute". I didn't see you on the thread about the male /s who thought it was so terrible that he was being asked to provide his own gear. Yeah, yeah, I know. You don't see those threads. How convenient for you.

quote:

Right, so you are saying a man is doing a crime to simply offer women kinky play on a BDSM website?

We just had a rash of threads on this subject. Even though I find it personally distasteful when somebody leads with their kinks, can't conduct themselves in such a way that casual conversation in an email rather than what happens often, it's not that first "offer" that's a problem.

I contend that the first no/not interested/deleted unread means the offer has been rejected. Overwhelmingly, men said that it meant 'try again'. Rejection of the 'offer' is not sufficient. One "no" is not enough because they might not really mean it or deleted unread might be an "accident". Those are your fellow posters that don't think any version of 'leave me alone' doesn't count because trying more than once is the way to go.

quote:

You are missing the whole point. How do people get things they want in this world if they don't ask for it and/or try for it? You have to have ambition to get most things in life, yes? It's not the point of if you care or you don't care. The point is, why is it so fucking wrong for a male to simply seek and ask for what he wants?

I have always said that males, s-types in particular, should not sit back and expect Dominant women to take notice of them. In the majority of cases, it honestly doesn't work that way. A lot of s/males think all they have to do is create a profile and the women will come running to them. There is a very small contingent for whom those things will happen but they tend to be forum posters who are attractive in some way due to the things they write based on intelligent conversation. They aren't the ones who lead with their kinks, the 'oh, I'm sooooo submissive' routine, or things like that.

Heck, you can make this assessment for yourself. Of the /s males on the forums, who gets the attention of the Dominant females? (Same goes for Dominant males, by the way.) What are they doing right?

quote:

When men have bitter attitudes towards what women want from men, they are usually labelled as bitter misogynists and it would be considered as anti social behaviour. Yet, it's the norm for women to have a huge fucking bug up their arse about what men want from women. Fucking laughable.

You're not exactly doing this from a fair angle. When women (findommes) go about bitching that they can't find the real pay pigs, I don't have any more sympathy for them than the male who thinks women should cater to their kinks.

I am going to tell you that even the phrase 'what men want from women' is rather distasteful to me. I don't care if that's sex, play, time, attention, 'hot chat', or any other thing. Allow me to assure you that being wanted 'from' gets very old, very quick.

quote:

Roughly, what percentage of people who hang in BDSM sites attend clubs? Most women I have played with in the past had no interest in clubs. Clubs, or BDSM events in general, is usually a topic that comes up between me and the person I play with at some point.

In my honest estimation, a very low percentage from a board like CM. That percentage jumps compared to a board like Fet.

quote:

Yep, I'm sure. "You're just trying to use me for sex" is a same old tired tune in any place in the world you go...as I mentioned in my earlier posts that bigotry against male sexually certainly exist outside the BDSM scene.

My whole point to this certain thing was that when I pick up a chick who likes to get kinky anywhere else besides a BDSM site, I have never came across one that used such labels on me like "do me' or "fetish delivery system" in the means that my kinks are less important than hers and my kinks are just self serving while hers are innocent.

We will have to have different opinions. I guess you pick up more people who are interested in casual sex than I do. More often than not, I see a certain segment of women who are relationship oriented. Even FWB arrangements are going to have a different bent than casual hook-ups because even a friend is more of an emotional investment.



ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Fetish delivery system vs financial delivery system (4/17/2016 8:39:49 AM)

quote:

I doubt male tops have it as easy as female bottoms on a general basis to get their kinks on.

And whose fault is that? Surely not the woman's?



LadyPact -> RE: Fetish delivery system vs financial delivery system (4/17/2016 8:53:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jamirus
I'll preface this by saying I'm 100% submissive, and i WANT Female relationships with male subs to succeed, which is why certain posters in this topic who claim to represent dominant women leave such a bad taste in my mouth and are non-representative of what this scene needs to be moving forward.

Well, I'm more than happy to say that I also want relationships to succeed, but I don't see that as being what most of this thread is about.

quote:

But that doesn't mean it can't change elsewhere to become better if more people decide to stop getting bullied by this crap. They aren't speaking up about it, and honestly I didn't want to either, but you'll find among the hee-hawing and how you chastise those who want respect for male subs (and therefore better partners for Female Dommes, its not that complicated)...and newbies, who you now see default as socks because you've driven virtually everyone else with a differing pov off the board... you probably have less support than you think, and everyone that learns more about it will cause it to slip further.

The part that I put in bold is what I wanted to address.

Let me be quite frank.

If you have had to take on a new screen name because something has happened to you in your life, I'll be the first person to support you. If you have a stalker who will not leave you alone, a person who has threatened to or intentionally outed you, a person who has violated your limits during play, or any such thing... Yes, by all means, take up a new screen name. You may not have any other choice.

However, if you are going to be the kind of individual who is just going to do the "waaaaa, the posters and/or admin are so mean" because I was a twit in some fashion or another, I have no sympathy for you. There is no person on this board who's opinion has not been popular at one time or another and the vast majority of them have the wherewithal to deal with the fact that they said something stupid at one time or another.

Random people on a forum don't "make" you do shit. If you think they are because the consequences of your independent, conscious decision making actions had a cause and effect of people thinking you might not just be the person that others want to interact with in life, I'm pretty much going to tell you that you CHOSE the way people respond to you by word, action, and deed. If you are such a GD coward that you can't stand by what you have to say, you are proving that other people are right about you.

This is not AA and the new person is not the most important person in the room. If you want to be a jerk, please feel free to be one. Like any other place, when you are ostracized for doing so, blame your own damn self.



ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Fetish delivery system vs financial delivery system (4/17/2016 11:56:29 AM)

quote:

and newbies, who you now see default as socks because you've driven virtually everyone else with a differing pov off the board

I actually found the vast majority of the posters here welcoming.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Fetish delivery system vs financial delivery system (4/17/2016 12:22:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I've read similar discussions in other forums, and it seems that the basic underlying premise of your arguments is basically this:

- "Equal" should mean "equal" on a consistent basis, with no exceptions or double standards whatsoever.

If this is your position, then I would agree that you have a point. If one purportedly favors a system of gender equality, then it's fair comment to call them out if they support a policy or demonstrate an attitude which appears to contradict the premise of gender equality.

But I'm not sure what kind of conclusions or proposals this might be leading to. What is the solution? What would you propose?

1. Should we, as a society, become even more proactive and double-down with a no-nonsense campaign that "equality means equality" no matter what, without exceptions, double standards, indulgences, or special dispensation? Couldn't that solve most of the issues you're addressing?

or

2. Are you using these examples of double standards as evidence that gender equality is an untenable, impractical, and impossible goal to achieve and that it should be abandoned entirely? Should we go back to the old order, since we're going to have double standards anyway?

Which of these comes closer to your true position?


This post went unanswered and unaddressed.



I'll address it.

First off, my choice is option #1. While change takes time, we are a constantly flowing society. At some times, that flow needs to be slowed so that we can make sure that change doesn't destroy us.

I'm all for equality, but as a society and as individuals, we all employ double standards.

Recently, I was in a building, on campus, that I have never been in, before. I asked someone to direct me to the men's room.

When I got to the appropriate area, there were (as we have become used to) two water closets. One was marked (those stupid "shadow figures") for females and one was marked for both.

I went back to the person who had directed me there (a person of great authority on campus) and asked why there was no men's room. I was told that the school was trying to "modernize [their] outlook" in regard to trans-gendered people.

I asked why the men's room was chosen as the place where all could enter and not the ladies room. I was told that ladies "traditionally" require more protection for their modesty.

I thought the fact that the word "traditionally" was used was a bit of an oxymoron, when we're talking about change. I didn't focus on that, but I did ask: "What about my modesty?" The answer was: "Well, we had to do something"

Essentially: That's a "take it and shut up, men"

How about the issue of reporters in locker rooms? Years ago, female reporters were allowed into male locker rooms no matter what the state of undress of the athletes. Do you think if I walked into the ladies softball team locker room, in the same manner, some eyebrows would raise (I already know the answer from personal experience)?

I've related this story here, before: years ago, when I first started shaving my head (1999? 2000?), a young lady came up behind me and touched my head (without permission) and almost got a broken arm for her mistake. When I asked her why she did that, her response was: "I just wanted to see what it felt like". I asked her: "What if I just wanted to see what your ass felt like?" I should have used "hair", but that doesn't make much difference, really.

The lady was indignant that I had an issue with her, touching my body without permission as if I should just "take it and shut up, dude". I'm sure, if I had run my fingers through her hair, her opinion would have been different. Do you think I might have had some big, burly, guy escort me out of the bar?

The point is: if people want to be honest, they rail about equality, but wish to reserve some special privilege for themselves or others. I don't know if it's "human nature", but I'm starting to believe it might be. Hence; the need for proceeding slowly on some issues.



Michael



Zonie63 -> RE: Fetish delivery system vs financial delivery system (4/18/2016 7:20:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


I'll address it.

First off, my choice is option #1. While change takes time, we are a constantly flowing society. At some times, that flow needs to be slowed so that we can make sure that change doesn't destroy us.

I'm all for equality, but as a society and as individuals, we all employ double standards.

Recently, I was in a building, on campus, that I have never been in, before. I asked someone to direct me to the men's room.

When I got to the appropriate area, there were (as we have become used to) two water closets. One was marked (those stupid "shadow figures") for females and one was marked for both.

I went back to the person who had directed me there (a person of great authority on campus) and asked why there was no men's room. I was told that the school was trying to "modernize [their] outlook" in regard to trans-gendered people.

I asked why the men's room was chosen as the place where all could enter and not the ladies room. I was told that ladies "traditionally" require more protection for their modesty.

I thought the fact that the word "traditionally" was used was a bit of an oxymoron, when we're talking about change. I didn't focus on that, but I did ask: "What about my modesty?" The answer was: "Well, we had to do something"

Essentially: That's a "take it and shut up, men"


I can agree with what you're saying here. I also think that things would go a lot more smoothly and fairly if society fully adopted the principle of gender equality on a more consistent level. From what I've been able to gather, many feminists would go along with this too, provided that it's truly and consistently equal.

I don't think it's really the hard feminists (or even the radical feminists) who are the problem here. I think it's more the wishy-washy and the fence-sitters, the ones who kinda/sorta support equality when it's convenient and works for their benefit, but then regress to "tradition" when equality becomes inconvenient or when it might actually benefit men.

If there's any true "man-haters," then I would say they're more likely to be among the wishy-washy feminists (many of whom might say they're not feminists or "I don't need feminism because..."). There have always been plenty of women who hate men; they never needed feminism for that.

I think that's the central complaint that Nick and many MRAs have. It's like they're saying "Come on, Feminists! Either shit or get off the pot!"

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

How about the issue of reporters in locker rooms? Years ago, female reporters were allowed into male locker rooms no matter what the state of undress of the athletes. Do you think if I walked into the ladies softball team locker room, in the same manner, some eyebrows would raise (I already know the answer from personal experience)?


I think a better solution might have been to just bar all reporters from the locker rooms entirely. I still recall the time that a judge ordered the Yankees to open up their locker room to female reporters. It was recounted in Sparky Lyle's "The Bronx Zoo." I think his major complaint was that the TV stations and newspapers made a circus out of it, sending in female reporters just for fun, to make it more sexy and titillating for public consumption. It was treated as a joke.

But I think you're right in that they still don't allow male reporters in female locker rooms.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

The point is: if people want to be honest, they rail about equality, but wish to reserve some special privilege for themselves or others. I don't know if it's "human nature", but I'm starting to believe it might be. Hence; the need for proceeding slowly on some issues.

Michael


I agree. I think the main problem might be that some people don't fully grasp or realize the true ramification of what they're advocating, and then try to backpedal once that is shown to them. But again, these are people who are on the fence or somewhat wishy-washy about it all. They don't have a firm, consistent set of principles to stand on, and that's where it goes south.



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