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RE: Women's rights groups to rally against equal custod... - 4/15/2016 5:23:23 PM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Oh, you've got to ask Peon who the "true" feminists are. Apparently a great deal of those feminist organisations and individuals aren't "true" feminists.

I've yet to see him identify one "true" feminist.


Jesus Christ on a giraffe. Well, I'll just have to cite it yet again, so it seems. I don't know why you keep doing this, Awareness .... Why in god's name do you find it so difficult? Oh well.

"the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes"

- Anybody who supports that, per the definition of feminism that you find at the top of the page if you Google 'feminism defined', will help you identify a 'true feminist'. God knows, even your GF might be a feminist, given that. Ask her. But, please, don't get as gobshitey and fuckety fucking aggressive with her as you do with everyone you argue with on this forum on this subject.

The truth is that you, personally, just *must* see 'feminism' in terms of high theory, bogeywoman rantings. If it's not that, then it *cannot* be feminism, in your terms. But feminism went beyond that many, many years ago. Its principles have seeped into the consciousness of millions the world over and have been accepted as true and right so much that even many of those who pronounce themselves non- or even anti- feminists nonetheless utterly accept and live by feminist principles.

Hell's bells ... I honestly do *not* get you, Awareness. You're not an idiot on most subjects. But on this one - of feminism - you somehow get overwhelmed by total cretinism. Really, you should try to stop being a tit on this.


I'm wondering if this might be analogous to different sects of Christianity. I've known some people who are agnostics/atheists but might consider themselves "christians" with a small "c." That is, they believe in the moral aspects of Christianity, such as "turn the other cheek," "love thy neighbor," doing good works, giving alms, etc., but they don't believe in the supernatural aspects, such as Immaculate Conception or the Resurrection, nor do they really believe in any "God." Some might argue that they might still be accepted into the "Kingdom of God" if they do good works and live a moral life, since "God" sees inside their heart - or something like that. (Although, fundamentalists are a bit more rigid than that and insist that only by believing in the supernatural aspects will one be "saved.")

Just like any other belief system, there are different factions and offshoots - and many claiming that they are the "true believers" while others are not.

I've had discussions with believers who might reduce it to a belief in some undefined "higher power" or "intelligent designer," to simplify it as something very vague - when they're presenting it to non-believers. They might say "If you believe in any kind of higher power, then you believe in God," and it might even seem halfway reasonable and harmless. Yet once you cross that line and say "I believe," then they start presenting even more detailed beliefs and sets of rules to follow and so on. It's no longer the simple thing of an undefined "higher power," but an entire belief system with many rules and specific principles to follow.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Women's rights groups to rally against equal custod... - 4/15/2016 5:37:05 PM   
Kaliko


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FR ....sigh. Does it not strike anyone else that there's been no answer to my question of why a feminist organization would oppose a custody bill that begins with a premise of equality? Wasn't that the point of the thread?


Seriously. Why?

< Message edited by Kaliko -- 4/15/2016 5:43:51 PM >

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RE: Women's rights groups to rally against equal custod... - 4/15/2016 5:44:47 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

FR ....sigh. Does it not strike anyone else that there's been no answer to my question of why a feminist organization would oppose a custody bill that begins with a premise of equality? Wasn't that the point of the thread?


I get a similarly 'sighing' type feeling, Kaliko.

"the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes" ...

Is that something you oppose? It's just that if you don't, you're a feminist. Sorry, but there it is.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Women's rights groups to rally against equal custod... - 4/15/2016 5:49:38 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

FR ....sigh. Does it not strike anyone else that there's been no answer to my question of why a feminist organization would oppose a custody bill that begins with a premise of equality? Wasn't that the point of the thread?


I get a similarly 'sighing' type feeling, Kaliko.

"the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes" ...

Is that something you oppose? It's just that if you don't, you're a feminist. Sorry, but there it is.


But my question is: why is a feminist organization opposing the premise of equal custody?

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Women's rights groups to rally against equal custod... - 4/15/2016 5:55:44 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

FR ....sigh. Does it not strike anyone else that there's been no answer to my question of why a feminist organization would oppose a custody bill that begins with a premise of equality? Wasn't that the point of the thread?


I get a similarly 'sighing' type feeling, Kaliko.

"the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes" ...

Is that something you oppose? It's just that if you don't, you're a feminist. Sorry, but there it is.


But my question is: why is a feminist organization opposing the premise of equal custody?



First, though - do you think you're not a feminist, per that standard definition?

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Women's rights groups to rally against equal custod... - 4/15/2016 6:01:46 PM   
Kaliko


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No, Peon. That's irrelevant to my question.

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RE: Women's rights groups to rally against equal custod... - 4/15/2016 6:05:45 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

No, Peon. That's irrelevant to my question.


No - as in you don't think you're a feminist, per that definition I gave?

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Women's rights groups to rally against equal custod... - 4/15/2016 6:24:37 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

No, Peon. That's irrelevant to my question.


No - as in you don't think you're a feminist, per that definition I gave?


No. "No" as in the question is irrelevant to the thread. I'm inquiring about NOW's stance. I asked earlier if NOW is indeed a feminist organization. And if so, why do they oppose the bill?

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Women's rights groups to rally against equal custod... - 4/15/2016 6:26:35 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


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Apparently the Governor vetoed the bill today.


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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Women's rights groups to rally against equal custod... - 4/15/2016 6:36:22 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

No. "No" as in the question is irrelevant to the thread. I'm inquiring about NOW's stance. I asked earlier if NOW is indeed a feminist organization. And if so, why do they oppose the bill?



It's absolutely central to the thread, which goes to the heart of what feminism actually is. Certainly, Awareness seems to believe that, too, or he'd not have argued with me - and so furiously, at that - about it. It's one of the few things he and I actually agree on, it seems.







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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Women's rights groups to rally against equal custod... - 4/15/2016 6:44:31 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

No. "No" as in the question is irrelevant to the thread. I'm inquiring about NOW's stance. I asked earlier if NOW is indeed a feminist organization. And if so, why do they oppose the bill?



It's absolutely central to the thread, which goes to the heart of what feminism actually is. Certainly, Awareness seems to believe that, too, or he'd not have argued with me - and so furiously, at that - about it. It's one of the few things he and I actually agree on, it seems.








Right. But I'm not Awareness and I'm not furious about anything. I am asking a pretty straightforward question and the more that you - someone who proclaims himself an expert in feminism - avoid answering why a feminist organization would oppose the bill, the more suspect I am that there are any actual concrete reasons.



< Message edited by Kaliko -- 4/15/2016 6:49:47 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Women's rights groups to rally against equal custod... - 4/15/2016 6:54:39 PM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Feminism covers a broad range of allied philosophies/ideologies that advocate for equality of the sexes.

No it doesn't. Feminist theory is fundamentally anti-male by asserting patriarchy theory as their underlying justification for the demonisation of men. By reframing the world as a horror story with men as "the other" who solely possess agency and act upon women as victims, feminism attempts to present the moral justification for male hatred.


It is in claims such as this that you betray your fundamental ignorance of what feminism is. The term feminism covers a wide range of streams of thought that only have in common that they advance the interests of women and advocate gender equality. They range from liberal feminism to radical lesbian feminism. Many of these streams disagree with others on a variety of issues.
Those extremes range from a little nutty, to full-man-hating lesbian nutty. All of them, however, are founded upon patriarchy theory. Without patriarchy theory, there is no feminism.

Essentially you're arguing there are multiple shades of shit. Regardless of the color, it's still shit.

quote:


It is more accurate to refer to feminisms, the plural. You continual attempts to reduce the wide range of feminist thinking to a single ideology. definable only by relation to males (as you insist above), demonstrates how unfamiliar you are with the reality of today's third wave feminisms.
Third wave intersectional feminism is utter nonsense which attempts to co-opt men, women of color and trans women (who feminism has treated abominably for decades) into their fold in order to justify further privilege acquisition by middle class white women.

The argument is essentially "women in third world countries are treated like shit and trans women suffer because men are toxic - so give us more stuff!" - It's pretty much the most noxious, toxic and ultimately self-interested style of feminism.

quote:

Just one example: if only men had agency as your 'definition' of feminism asserts, then feminisms couldn't exist as women would be without the necessary agency to invent feminisms. That's a measure of how stupid and internally inconsistent your claims are, and how ridiculously easy they are to dismiss.
Actually you're proving my point for me. Feminism claims that women have agency, except when it means holding women responsible for their fuckups - you know, treating them like an adult.

So, women have agency - of course they fucking do - but feminism insists they don't because when a man and a woman both get drunk and fuck, the man is a rapist.

Feminism denies female agency when it's useful to portray women as objects who are acted upon. So feminism both claims women have female agency, then pretends they don't when it's a disadvantage to possess that agency and be held responsible for their actions.

quote:


Your insistence that you can define feminism(s) and that the womens movement cannot accurately define it self speaks equally to your arrogance and ignorance. Men have never had the right to define feminisms and they never will. That makes as much sense as IS defining democracy ie no sense at all.
Oh dear. Education time again!

For any ideology to be taken seriously, it has to be at least credible. It has to possess internal consistency, its view of the world has to be explained, its assessment of the status quo, it's proposal of a new vision for the future and the means by which a transition from present state to future state takes place.

For feminism, that vision of the status quo is found in patriarchy theory which posits that men as a class have oppressed women as a class for millenia. Without patriarchy theory, without that assessment of the status quo which claims that women are oppressed and treated unfairly because they are women, the entire thesis of feminism collapses.

Otherwise the conversation goes something like this:

"Women deserve equal rights!"

"They have them. When was the last time you saw a woman breathing coal dust in a mine? Now do fuck off."

If someone is claiming to be a feminist without referencing patriarchy theory, then she's advocating for reforms but producing absolutely no rationale for why those reforms should be instituted. Mind you, feminists making claims without evidence is pretty much de rigueur. Evidence is so unfashionable. Of course, once you examine feminist's claims and their corresponding lack of evidence - those claims collapse.

quote:


You can be as pompous loud, long winded and abusive about it as you like.
I don't need permission from you on what I can be. Get back in your fucking box, you badly overestimate both your significance and your capability.

quote:

But it doesn't and can't cover the very obvious fact that you really haven't a clue what feminisms are about.
A claim for which you have zero evidence. What? A feminist without evidence? That's so common it's practically a cliche.

Yes dear, you're a cliche.

quote:


That you are so strident in your opposition to a movement that has improved the standard and quality of life for hundreds of millions of women, if not billions, across the planet suggests that, just like your mate poor little nicki, your real hatred is of women not feminisms,
It has done no such thing. Feminism has improved the lot of employers who now have a doubled labour force to draw from and due to the sudden influx of workers resulted in a drop in wages, reducing the income of families in real terms since the second world war. Families are in fact, worse off, than before feminism.

In the totalitarian societies such as our friends of the communist and socialist persuasion, feminism allowed the state to double its labour force, erase familial ties and replace all interpersonal loyalty with loyalty to the party. I doubt you'll find a Russian or Chinese woman who considers herself better off due to feminism. Now she has to work AND care for her children and possibly her husband if he doesn't have work. That sound like a paradise to you?

As for third world countries, that's just a bald-faced lie. Intersectional feminism has only started to claim concern for third world women in the last decade and only because they make for great photo ops which are then used to argue for less responsibility and more dollars. "Women in third world countries are dying, so us white women need more stuff!"

The moral bankruptcy of that last case is particularly fucking sickening.

quote:


that you cannot cope with the thought and/or the reality of gender equality in today's world.
Women currently possess gender advantage and feminists keep pursuing further advantage for women while disadvantaging men. If you're too stupid to realise this, then that's entirely your own problem. It's not my job to educate your ignorant ass.

quote:

Well suck on it stupid, thanks to feminisms and feminists, the days when men ruled and women listened are long gone and never coming back.
Now that's a classic feminist statement. Devoid of content, evidence and useful only for the insight it gives us into the personality issues of the author.

Go have a lie down and a cup of tea. There's a good girl.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Women's rights groups to rally against equal custod... - 4/15/2016 6:56:33 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

No. "No" as in the question is irrelevant to the thread. I'm inquiring about NOW's stance. I asked earlier if NOW is indeed a feminist organization. And if so, why do they oppose the bill?



It's absolutely central to the thread, which goes to the heart of what feminism actually is. Certainly, Awareness seems to believe that, too, or he'd not have argued with me - and so furiously, at that - about it. It's one of the few things he and I actually agree on, it seems.








Right. But I'm not Awareness and I'm not furious about anything. I am asking a pretty straightfoward question and the more that you - someone who proclaims himself an expert in feminism - avoid answering why a feminist organization would oppose the bill, the more suspect I am that there are any actual concrete reasons.




Right. You're not furious - but you *are* arguing with me and, moreover, suggesting that your question is more important than my own.

What sort of influence can you *possibly* have come under that you should be so bold in your attitude to me, Kaliko? I mean, after all you, a mere woman, and me, a man?

If you want an answer to your question, read my former posts on this thread. It should be evident from them.

I'm tired. I'm going to bed.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Women's rights groups to rally against equal custod... - 4/15/2016 6:57:33 PM   
Awareness


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Peon, name a feminist individual or group will you? There's a good chap.

You're an intellectual coward trying to hide behind vagueness. You claim every group which doesn't match your mystical definition aren't feminists. In which case Peon, NONE of them are. Because feminists advocate for advantage. And until you can prove they don't, your definition is useless bunk. You might think it's real, but it's clear that it doesn't apply to anyone, anyway.

Why is that? Because you can't even name one feminist group or individual which passes this "True feminist" test of yours.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Women's rights groups to rally against equal custod... - 4/15/2016 6:59:19 PM   
Awareness


Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

No. "No" as in the question is irrelevant to the thread. I'm inquiring about NOW's stance. I asked earlier if NOW is indeed a feminist organization. And if so, why do they oppose the bill?



It's absolutely central to the thread, which goes to the heart of what feminism actually is. Certainly, Awareness seems to believe that, too, or he'd not have argued with me - and so furiously, at that - about it. It's one of the few things he and I actually agree on, it seems.








Right. But I'm not Awareness and I'm not furious about anything. I am asking a pretty straightforward question and the more that you - someone who proclaims himself an expert in feminism - avoid answering why a feminist organization would oppose the bill, the more suspect I am that there are any actual concrete reasons.


I told you he was no good at this. He's dancing around the answer because he doesn't have one.


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Women's rights groups to rally against equal custod... - 4/15/2016 7:00:35 PM   
mnottertail


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I dont know that I would go a bridge that far, and I ain't at all mordant either way about this, but heres the bottom line, if women want equal rights, they need to go out and get it at the end of a gun, like men always have.

men want to know, here, you want this piece, that piece, and what's in it for me?

equal pay for equal work, ok. after that, its real murky, unless I have missed something so obvious that its moving faster than the speed of light.

we are different. that is a fact.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Women's rights groups to rally against equal custod... - 4/15/2016 7:03:34 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

No. "No" as in the question is irrelevant to the thread. I'm inquiring about NOW's stance. I asked earlier if NOW is indeed a feminist organization. And if so, why do they oppose the bill?



It's absolutely central to the thread, which goes to the heart of what feminism actually is. Certainly, Awareness seems to believe that, too, or he'd not have argued with me - and so furiously, at that - about it. It's one of the few things he and I actually agree on, it seems.








Right. But I'm not Awareness and I'm not furious about anything. I am asking a pretty straightforward question and the more that you - someone who proclaims himself an expert in feminism - avoid answering why a feminist organization would oppose the bill, the more suspect I am that there are any actual concrete reasons.


I told you he was no good at this. He's dancing around the answer because he doesn't have one.



Dammit. I hate it when you're right.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Women's rights groups to rally against equal custod... - 4/15/2016 7:04:09 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

Peon, name a feminist individual or group will you? There's a good chap.

You're an intellectual coward trying to hide behind vagueness. You claim every group which doesn't match your mystical definition aren't feminists. In which case Peon, NONE of them are. Because feminists advocate for advantage. And until you can prove they don't, your definition is useless bunk. You might think it's real, but it's clear that it doesn't apply to anyone, anyway.

Why is that? Because you can't even name one feminist group or individual which passes this "True feminist" test of yours.



Well, jesus h sufferin christ, Awareness, nobody, not even reactionaries will argue for a disadvantage....well, nutsuckers might, but that cant be a tick mark, it is an ad hominem circumstantial, and a valid one at that, but lets call that little bit a horse apiece.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Women's rights groups to rally against equal custod... - 4/16/2016 1:43:29 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

Peon, name a feminist individual or group will you? There's a good chap.

You're an intellectual coward trying to hide behind vagueness. You claim every group which doesn't match your mystical definition aren't feminists. In which case Peon, NONE of them are. Because feminists advocate for advantage. And until you can prove they don't, your definition is useless bunk. You might think it's real, but it's clear that it doesn't apply to anyone, anyway.

Why is that? Because you can't even name one feminist group or individual which passes this "True feminist" test of yours.


As previously mentioned, and I think now on many occasions, old boy, I don't need to name any feminist individual or group. All *you* need to do is find a person - woman or man - who agrees with 'the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes'. You're demanding, and insisting, that I name a given individual because you take it as read that a 'feminist' just *must* be someone who belongs to a small, extreme, group. Feminists aren't extremists, Awareness. They're ordinary people. They're everywhere. It's only extreme anti feminists who want to box feminists up as and *only* as extreme.

And for the nth time, this is how anyone who knows anything about the subject identifies feminism and feminists. It's not how you and frothing MRA identify it, and them ... but you *really will* just have to get used to the fact that your extremist version is just that - extremist.

So, again, if you want to name a feminist: go outside, approach a woman (don't be too aggressive, if at all possible) and ask her, 'would you argue that the sexes are equal' ... and you will have met a feminist. Simple as that.

Can you do that, Awareness, for me? Can you go out and ask a woman that question, while arranging not to look too rolling-eyed and berserker-ish in the process? You don't need to ask a woman who looks like she's a monster; still less do you need to ask one who looks like a mystic of some sort. Just any woman.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Women's rights groups to rally against equal custod... - 4/16/2016 1:46:35 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

Dammit. I hate it when you're right.


It's lovely to see how rarely you feel any sense of hatred for your BF, Kaliko.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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