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RE: Cruz drops out? - 5/7/2016 12:56:51 AM   
Blank101


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From: Portland, OR
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quote:

DesideriScuri
While that is true, it's immaterial. To get a 3rd party going, you don't need to win the election right out of the gate. It could take a few general elections, but if there are people who are actually fed up with the two parties, and voting against a candidate, it could gain traction and garner more and more voters.

If you're not voting for someone that represents you and your values, how do parties ever know what you need, as it pertains to representation? If you agree with 10% of the GOP planks and 0% of the Democrat planks, does your vote come with a footnote explaining your views?


You're right a third party needing to garner more and more attention, but its hard justifying throwing away your vote for x number of elections until that party has enough popularity. If a third party were to emerge right after an election, perhaps enough people would know about them come four years to get a snowball rolling in their favor. Take 2016 for example...are our votes really worth allowing Hillary or Trump into office?

On a side note, I thought some of the more interesting candidates for their respective parties were Mike Huckabee and Martin O'Malley, but its too bad they dropped out of the running so early.

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RE: Cruz drops out? - 5/7/2016 1:42:16 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blank101
You're right a third party needing to garner more and more attention, but its hard justifying throwing away your vote for x number of elections until that party has enough popularity.

But this is literally how a third party can eventually win! They are reliant on people to keep voting for them and help them increase popularity, each election after each election. If Third party gains notice for significant increase of votes, they get media attention. They seriously need your votes to help them, IF your genuine choice is the third party.

quote:

Take 2016 for example...are our votes really worth allowing Hillary or Trump into office?

If they are two people you don't like anyway, who cares who gets elected, focus on helping your favourite third party!

And when I am thinking third party, I am thinking independents and not people from either camp.

(in reply to Blank101)
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RE: Cruz drops out? - 5/7/2016 2:16:12 AM   
Blank101


Posts: 130
Joined: 9/15/2011
From: Portland, OR
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quote:

Greta75
But this is literally how a third party can eventually win! They are reliant on people to keep voting for them and help them increase popularity, each election after each election. If Third party gains notice for significant increase of votes, they get media attention. They seriously need your votes to help them, IF your genuine choice is the third party.

If they are two people you don't like anyway, who cares who gets elected, focus on helping your favourite third party!

And when I am thinking third party, I am thinking independents and not people from either camp.


I can't respond to you without using the same argument I made to Desi. It's a pointless discussion. Let's agree to disagree.




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RE: Cruz drops out? - 5/7/2016 2:39:12 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

You're right a third party needing to garner more and more attention, but its hard justifying throwing away your vote for x number of elections until that party has enough popularity.

How is it throwing away your vote?

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Profile   Post #: 204
RE: Cruz drops out? - 5/7/2016 2:55:10 AM   
Blank101


Posts: 130
Joined: 9/15/2011
From: Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

You're right a third party needing to garner more and more attention, but its hard justifying throwing away your vote for x number of elections until that party has enough popularity.

How is it throwing away your vote?


Because in the 2016 election there won't be enough third party voters to prevent a Hillary or Trump win. As we've discussed, if enough people go third party for enough election cycles, maybe in the year 2032 the leading republican or democrat won't be guaranteed a win. I don't think 2016 is a good year to start going third party. If you go back a few pages, you'll find a YouTube series by CGP Grey that I linked which discusses the problems with our current voting process (first past the post voting).

And here I thought you've been following along. You're not getting my hypothetical vote anymore! :(

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RE: Cruz drops out? - 5/7/2016 3:44:17 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


Posts: 5490
Status: offline 		You have not answered the question. How is voting for a 3rd party throwing away your vote?

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RE: Cruz drops out? - 5/7/2016 4:29:59 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

You have not answered the question. How is voting for a 3rd party throwing away your vote?

If a particular 3rd party is never ever in a zillion years likely to recover their deposit let alone make any dent at the bottom of the ladder, it's a joke vote and a waste.

I could vote for the Monster Raving Loony Party.
But it would be a wasted vote.
Why?
Because they have a proven track record of not gaining enough votes to retain their deposit most of the time.

If I didn't like the two front runners, I'd opt for a party that at least gets some notable votes that might stand a chance of becoming some sort of opposition to the front runners.
At least over here, we do have a bunch of parties that aren't up to much but are at least recognised as a possibility in the future.
American politics is such that 99% is taken up by the two main parties and Americans (generally) don't like to kick the status quo.


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RE: Cruz drops out? - 5/7/2016 4:43:36 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		In light of Trump miraculously converting from -0% chance of ever winning Republican nomination, to now 50% chance of winning President, I am surprise people still don't believe that one day, with their support, and with time, a third party could start growing.

I mean, not one person thought when he first announced there was any possibility of Trump getting taken seriously. Everybody treated him like a clown. The impossible has happened. And the impossible will happen again!

Impossible things keep happening. Even Obama election was an unexpected miracle.

People are sick of the same old people and old establishment that is not working.

I think they are pretty much ready for the right third party too!

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 5/7/2016 4:45:29 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 208
RE: Cruz drops out? - 5/7/2016 4:49:27 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		He's still a clown Greta.
He has his followers, yes.

I don't see anything in the news that disgruntled democrats will vote for him or back him.
There might be a very very tiny handful, but nothing of any significance.
Same for half the GOP.



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“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


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RE: Cruz drops out? - 5/7/2016 4:50:19 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AtUrCervix


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
DesideriScuri I consider you a reasonable man with a conservative way of thinking... but not a fanatic. I hope I am not putting you on the spot but the question I am going to ask is of importance in the coming election.


Thanks for the compliments. You are putting me on the spot, so to speak, but this is not something I'm shy about.

quote:

If, as it looks likely, Trump gets the nomination will you vote party over your misgivings? If not will you just not vote or consider voting for Clinton?
Butch


I won't vote for a party. Even if I did, I wouldn't be voting for Trump. I'm a Libertarian. That being said, I've stated on these boards that I'll vote for the person that best represents my beliefs in how government is supposed to be run. I don't know who the other candidates for President are going to be, but I have around 6 months for me to do my homework. I will vote for Hillary IF it turns out she's the one that best represents my beliefs in how government is supposed to be run.

I will no longer cast a vote against a candidate (vote for the "lesser of two evils"), but will only cast a vote in favor of the one who represents me best.



And THAT is what EVERY citizen (of any country) should do.....vote for the best person to do the job.

Sadly, none of the dozen or so Americans who might make a half decent President have stood for a party nomination this cycle.

(in reply to AtUrCervix)
Profile   Post #: 210
RE: Cruz drops out? - 5/7/2016 5:12:45 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

He's still a clown Greta.
He has his followers, yes.

I don't see anything in the news that disgruntled democrats will vote for him or back him.
There might be a very very tiny handful, but nothing of any significance.
Same for half the GOP.

Point is. The fact that his own party hates him and he still won GOP nomination. Was suppose to be an impossible task for him. His already passed through Stage 1 of Mission Impossible.
And it was seriously laughable this was possible when it first started.

People don't want to waste their vote on third parties because they think it's mission impossible for the third party to win. But no matter who is President, the country is not gonna die, because the President don't really have that many powers. Congress, the senates still need to vote things through right? So there is alot of people regulating the balance of power.

I think people can afford a few elections to focus on building up their third party by supporting them with their votes.

I mean, it makes me happy if people rather vote Trump, but if they feel they are simply voting for the better of the worst, I think they should then support the candidate they genuinely like.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 5/7/2016 5:15:07 AM >

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
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RE: Cruz drops out? - 5/7/2016 9:46:43 AM   
bigjb62


Posts: 124
Joined: 11/23/2011
Status: offline 		It's pointless to keep arguing about a 3rd party candidate because:

1. A 3rd party candidate won't be able to get the funds to run a viable campaign unless they're a billionaire and don't mind throwing away a large chunk of it.
2. Most likely won't be conservative enough to garner enough of the conservative vote, example: Ross Perot.
3. Most liberals will only vote for another liberal even if they're a pathological lair and thief, example: Shrillary

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Profile   Post #: 212
RE: Cruz drops out? - 5/7/2016 9:51:54 AM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline 		So which of those three objections would apply if the Republican Illuminati decided to bankroll one of the nominees who dropped out of the race as an independent candidate?

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Profile   Post #: 213
RE: Cruz drops out? - 5/7/2016 10:15:06 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


Posts: 5490
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quote:

But it would be a wasted vote.
Why?
Because they have a proven track record of not gaining enough votes to retain their deposit most of the time.

So? How does that make your vote wasted if you voted for the person/party you want elected?
You seem to have a somewhat warped view of what the voting process is about. It is not about winning, it is about giving your choice for whatever is being voted for.


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Profile   Post #: 214
RE: Cruz drops out? - 5/7/2016 10:19:14 AM   
bigjb62


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quote:

So which of those three objections would apply if the Republican Illuminati decided to bankroll one of the nominees who dropped out of the race as an independent candidate?


Since it's your dumb question you answer it.

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Profile   Post #: 215
RE: Cruz drops out? - 5/7/2016 10:29:17 AM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigjb62

quote:

So which of those three objections would apply if the Republican Illuminati decided to bankroll one of the nominees who dropped out of the race as an independent candidate?


Since it's your dumb question you answer it.

Got nothing, then. Thought so.

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Profile   Post #: 216
RE: Cruz drops out? - 5/7/2016 11:17:35 AM   
bigjb62


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Joined: 11/23/2011
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quote:

Got nothing, then. Thought so.


You seem to think what I said doesn't apply! I challenge you to show me where it doesn't! Or is this just another attempt at a circular argument that is so popular with dimwitocrats?

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Profile   Post #: 217
RE: Cruz drops out? - 5/7/2016 11:35:58 AM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline 		No, it's putting the onus of proof on the individual who made a statement (or rather three massively generalised statements) and can't be bothered to make any effort to substantiate or prove a single one of them.

(in reply to bigjb62)
Profile   Post #: 218
RE: Cruz drops out? - 5/7/2016 12:12:34 PM   
bigjb62


Posts: 124
Joined: 11/23/2011
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quote:

No, it's putting the onus of proof on the individual who made a statement (or rather three massively generalised statements) and can't be bothered to make any effort to substantiate or prove a single one of them.


History proves mine. What else you got? A circular argument... I thought so.

(in reply to WhoreMods)
Profile   Post #: 219
RE: Cruz drops out? - 5/7/2016 12:25:18 PM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline 		You haven't proved a single one of your three statements. Pointing that out isn't a circular argument.
As for history proving you right that independent candidates are unelectable, try telling that to Bill Walker.

< Message edited by WhoreMods -- 5/7/2016 12:28:41 PM >

(in reply to bigjb62)
Profile   Post #: 220
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