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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 4:18:20 AM

EnglishDomNW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Your point on God with a cigar:

The cartoons and God with a cigar are totally different. The former was intended to incite racial tension. What was the intent of the latter? Put it this way, it is nowhere near as dangerous. We already have problems in Europe with anti-Muslim sentiment, the last thing we need is the flames stoking.

I don't want to pick holes in this but....

1) Muslims can be of any race. Your claim that the reason the cartoons were published was "to incite racial tension" is bizarre.
2) You say the latter was "nowhere near as dangerous". Precisely. Because as Locke said in her letter, there was no need to fear a violent response from Christians. There shouldn't be from Muslims either.
3) I'm sorry but I don't think you're even aware yourself that you seem to have this in-built knee-jerk reaction to defend whoever is in the minority. I might have missed your condemnation of the reprisals, so if I did, excuse me. If I didn't, you shouldn't need to be told to condemn it way before you condemn the publication of a cartoon.

It doesn't MATTER what percentage of the Muslim religion commited outrageous acts of violence in response to a cartoon - the violence took place worldwide and you should be condemning that first and foremost. I don't think you'll find anyone claiming all Muslims took part on that violence but there shouldn't be anybody taking part in it.

Be more offended by violence and murder than you are about upsetting a minority or seeing a cartoon.
.

< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 7/22/2006 4:32:40 AM >

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Post #: 41

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 4:23:08 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Actually NGent, it was you who missed the point.

In your original post you said:

quote:

The mark of a truly civilised society is freedom of speech with limits. How can blatant disrespect of another culture/race be civilised and allowed to go unchecked?

Level pointed out that right here on a BDSM board there are many many things posted that are blatantly disrespectful of the US, not just the policies of the present Gvt.

I've got to agree here. It surprises me just how many Americans take the criticism and insults of the US squarely on the chin and argue back rationally.

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 42

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 4:27:02 AM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Your point on God with a cigar:

The cartoons and God with a cigar are totally different. The former was intended to incite racial tension. What was the intent of the latter? Put it this way, it is nowhere near as dangerous. We already have problems in Europe with anti-Muslim sentiment, the last thing we need is the flames stoking.

I don't want to pick holes in this but....

1) Muslims can be of any race. Your claim that the reason the cartoons were published was "to incite racial tension" is bizarre.
2) You say the latter was "nowhere near as dangerous". Precisely. Because as Locke said in her letter, there was no need to fear a violent response from Christians. There shouldn't be from Muslims either.
3) I'm sorry but I don't think you're even aware yourself that you seem to have this in-built knee-jerk reaction to defend whoever is in the minority.

It doesn't MATTER how many people commit outrageous acts of violence and murder in response to a cartoon - the violence took place worldwide and you should be condemning that first and foremost.

Be more offended by violence and murder than you are about upsetting a minority or seeing a cartoon.
.

Excellent post, EnglishDom.

That's what gets to me.....

"I drew a cartoon."

"I saw the cartoon and burned down a building, and without much regard as to whether a human being was in it."

"How dare he draw a cartoon and make him burn a building down!!"

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)

Post #: 43

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 4:34:08 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The reason why I am not arguing the point with level is because a) based on his comment, he obviously didn't understand the point I was making and b) he reduced it to a self-pitying comment about the US when the cartoons and anti-muslin rhetoric in Europe is a serious issue that deserves far more insight than was given by the said poster. Thus, there is no point in discussing this with someone who is arguing against something he thinks I said and wants to reduce it to play-ground politics.

I think anti-muslim rhetoric is a serious issue but I don't see the answer is silencing people. The answer is to challenge the rational behind it and that requires free speach but it also requires the muslim community to grow up somewhat and accept legitimate criticism. Not all their woes are down to the Great Satan. The muslim world is failing because it refuses to accept its own inadequacy at modernising. For example. 1. Take oil out of the equation and Finland exports more products to the wider world than the whole of the Arab speaking countries. 2. More books were published in Spanish in the decade 1990-2000 than the number of books published in Arabic in the last thousand years! Now I'm not aware of the USA placing an embargo on book publishing in the Arabic world but maybe I'm wrong. Enlighten me.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 44

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 4:35:56 AM

NorthernGent

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Joined: 7/10/2006
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meatcleaver,

Your quote:

I don't agree with your analysis, it's too simplistic. For many reasons anti-semitism was rife in Europe and that wasn't something begun by Hitler in the 20s, it was far deeper than that. He was saying something many people wanted to hear. The reason should be asked why so many people wanted to hear it. It wasn't that Hitler wasn't shut up that was the problem, it was that no one really disagreed with him so your argument is irrelevant.

You're confusing Eastern Europe with Germany and historical facts show you are incorrect in what you say. You can't lump of all of Europe in the same boat by saying "anti-semitism was rife in Europe". There were wildly varying levels of anti-semitism. Germany was far, far different to Russia. German Jews were prospering and well integrated within German society. Also, contrary to your claim, Hitler did not have a wide audience when he first appeared on the scene. Most people laughed him off as a lunatic and the reason Hitler thrived was because of his support from the military and industrialists (not from wide support for his racial theories). There were a small minority of thugs and low-life Germans who agreed with his anti-Jewish sentiment in the 1920s but they were a small minority. Militarists and industrialists turned a blind eye to this providing Hitler helped them achieve their aims. To say no-one disagreed with him is really wildly inaccurate. To repeat, German Jews were well integrated and did not suffer the discrimination that Russian or Polish Jews experienced (until the 1930s of course when things had spiralled out of control). You see, if Hitler had been shutdown in the 1920s things may have been so different.

I can tell you have not studying German history during the inter-war years. No offence intended but it is blatant. The German people did not look to the Jews as a scapegoat. That thinking is popular history and not supported by historical fact. They were star-struck by the promise of a strong, dominant Germany and economic regeneration after the starvation immediately after WW1 and the effects of The Wall Street Crash.

You keep saying I am inclined to shut people down who disagree with me. Take note of this - I am not trying to shut anyone down, there is just no point in going around in circles with people who are aguing against something they think I said rather than something I did say. Again, your comment on this is as inaccurate as your comment on Germany during the inter-war years.

NorthernGent

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 45

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 4:47:48 AM

NorthernGent

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Joined: 7/10/2006
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EnglishDomNW,

Your quote:

I don't want to pick holes in this but....

1) Muslims can be of any race. Your claim that the reason the cartoons were published was "to incite racial tension" is bizarre.
2) You say the latter was "nowhere near as dangerous". Precisely. Because as Locke said in her letter, there was no need to fear a violent response from Christians. There shouldn't be from Muslims either.
3) I'm sorry but I don't think you're even aware yourself that you seem to have this in-built knee-jerk reaction to defend whoever is in the minority. I might have missed your condemnation of the reprisals, so if I did, excuse me. If I didn't, you shouldn't need to be told to condemn it way before you condemn the publication of a cartoon.

It doesn't MATTER what percentage of the Muslim religion commited outrageous acts of violence in response to a cartoon - the violence took place worldwide and you should be condemning that first and foremost. I don't think you'll find anyone claiming all Muslims took part on that violence but there shouldn't be anybody taking part in it.

Be more offended by violence and murder than you are about upsetting a minority or seeing a cartoon

1) You know the point I'm getting at. The cartoons were intended to incite prejudice and prey on people's fears about the muslim world - many Europeans see Muslim/Islam as a race and the cartoonist was well aware of this.

2) The reason I say the God cartoon was not as dangerous is because Christians in Britain are not a minority who are subject to biogtry and prejudice on a regular basis. Nothing whatsoever to do with the reaction of anyone.

3) As said in my earlier post, there are two issues here a) the cartoons and b) the reaction. I have made no attempt to discuss the reaction for a very good reason and that is we are nowhere near ending the discussion on the cartoons. So, how you've arrived at your conclusion on my opinion on the reaction is strange when, as yet, I haven't attempted to discuss it.

4) I don't condemn one thing above another. In my world there is no room for a tit-for-tat argument along the lines of "well he did that so I did this". Rational debate baed on fact and what people are actually saying goes a long way.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 46

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 4:49:37 AM

meatcleaver

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Joined: 3/13/2006
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The German Jews were integrated into German society? Have you read Heilegger and many other German intellectuals? Anti-semitism was there in Germany ready to be plucked from the tree like a ripe apple. You can trace it right back to Luther and beyond.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 47

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 5:08:49 AM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Level,

Look, we're really not on the same wavelength. No point continuing this.

NorthernGent

That is most humorous. You were not on the same wavelength as ANY of us in the racism thread, but you argued until you were blue in the face, desperate to convince everybody that you were right and they were wrong. In fact you are doing it again in this thread with meatcleaver. However, when Level brings up a valid point that you can not argue you shut him down and say there is no point in continuing the discussion.

How pathetic.

_____________________________

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(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 48

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 5:32:22 AM

EnglishDomNW

Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The reason I say the God cartoon was not as dangerous is because Christians in Britain are not a minority who are subject to biogtry and prejudice on a regular basis. Nothing whatsoever to do with the reaction of anyone.

What is your obsession with minorities? Is the majority somehow less sensitive to violence than a minority? Do Christians deserve less religious respect than Muslims just because they're in a majority? It seems to me that unless you're a minority, you personally don't offer any support to anyone.

quote:

3) As said in my earlier post, there are two issues here a) the cartoons and b) the reaction. I have made no attempt to discuss the reaction for a very good reason and that is we are nowhere near ending the discussion on the cartoons. So, how you've arrived at your conclusion on my opinion on the reaction is strange when, as yet, I haven't attempted to discuss it.

But that's my point. You concentrate all your posts on condemning the cartoon and not the violent reaction to it, as if somehow you feel the reaction is either less important or (worse), understandable because a minority is responsible for that reaction.

quote:

4) I don't condemn one thing above another.

This is where we differ. I would condemn the violence a thousand times more than I would the cartoon.

quote:

In my world there is no room for a tit-for-tat argument along the lines of "well he did that so I did this". Rational debate baed on fact and what people are actually saying goes a long way.

So does facing facts. Nobody ever lost their husband/wife/son/daughter by looking at a cartoon in a newspaper. They did from the reaction to it. You would need to be pretty cold-hearted to think one thing deserves less condemnation than the other.

_____________________________

"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 49

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 5:54:19 AM

Arpig

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Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
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You did misread it, the cartoons were merely an example.

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(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 50

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 6:01:18 AM

darkinshadows

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From: UK
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The thing to remember is WHO posted the cartoons. And where they were posted. A picture of a pig drinking milk is only a picture of a pig drinking milk unless it is posted in a certain way in a certain article.

I totally understand what Northeen Gent is getting at and it isn't that far removed from what others are saying.

As for the remark about verbal attacks on the US, well - I would say that the same can be said for the UK and for australian as they are often posted. But whats worse - attacks on a country for its policies - or personal attacks on a poster just because you don't understand, or agree with his stance?

I see no difference, just simple double standards.

Freedom of expression comes with responsibility. Respect for the human, no matter the race, colour or creed is an interesting and beautiful concept, but rarely demonstrated. Basic Human rights state that respect for the dignity for all people is the ultimate goal. Those cartoons broke that declaration and the newspapers that printed them knew that. Everyone has the right to have their Lifestyle respected, even if people cannot bring to adopt it or accept it for themselves.

Everyone under HRL has the freedom to express personal thought and expression. 'This right includes freedom to seek, receive, and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing, in print, in the form of art, or through any other medium of one's choice ' Within that statement, one should also expect a certain response from others in kind. Hate is perpetuated - (as is being shown quite clearly by this thread).

quote:

Any propaganda for war and any advocacy of national, racial, or religious hatred that constitute incitements to lawless violence or to any other similar action against any person or group of persons on any grounds including those of race, color, religion, language, or national origin shall be considered as offenses punishable by law.

The article/cartoon in question failed on many counts (including the above) and infringed on the basic human rights of a section of the community. Countless times on this forum, I have seen people bemoaning the laws stance on anti-BDSM related attacks - unreliable arrests, disgusting misrepresentation in the media (De Sade/80 wives), or on film (re the Pet/Secretary) - and in response I see and often hear hateful responses and a growing amount of 'name calling' that only adds to a 'us and them ' mentality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Freedom of speech is a concept.
With no limits of any kind it becomes unworkable.
Total freedom of speech would include the right to say literally anything with impunity...perjury, slander, calling 911 constantly with false reports, revealing confidential information, inciting violence, bomb threats...all are communications by 'speech'.

So the question is, what speech do you limit? Offensive speech? Hate speech? Obscene speech? Unpopular speech? Minority speech? Obstructive speech? Abba?

I would refere you to the above quotation bluehighlighted - Freedom of Expression and speech is a basic human right. But on all human rights issues - a right is only a right until it infringes on anothers freedoms.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 51

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 6:11:52 AM

darkinshadows

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Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

What is your obsession with minorities? Is the majority somehow less sensitive to violence than a minority? Do Christians deserve less religious respect than Muslims just because they're in a majority? It seems to me that unless you're a minority, you personally don't offer any support to anyone.

It isnt about the minority - it is about the bigotry any minority or majority is subjected to and in the UK (sorry - just using UK as an example as that seems to be the topic here on this particualr response) - muslims, being a minority are subjected to incredible racial abuse - that part is undeniable and coming from and being raised in an area that I was a minority in retrospect, I saw that every day.

quote:

But that's my point. You concentrate all your posts on condemning the cartoon and not the violent reaction to it, as if somehow you feel the reaction is either less important or (worse), understandable because a minority is responsible for that reaction.

Inciting the violence is what the cartoon was achieving and is a basic human right infringment. One is not less than the other. One incites violence - that is the underhand way of shifting the blame - the other is the violence - not an ideal response - but neither are lesser 'evils'.

quote:

This is where we differ. I would condemn the violence a thousand times more than I would the cartoon.

The cartoon was underhand violence - there is no difference. It is firing the first bullet without actually hitting anyone and then saying ' It wasnt me that started the killing'.

quote:

So does facing facts. Nobody ever lost their husband/wife/son/daughter by looking at a cartoon in a newspaper. They did from the reaction to it.

Again, possibly not true at all - you cannot say that for sure. There are plenty of incidents where written media or televisual media - even audio - is blamed for deaths. There are plenty of instances of articles and songs that are created with the intention of inciting violence.

quote:

You would need to be pretty cold-hearted to think one thing deserves less condemnation than the other.

Exactly - so why do you?

Peace and Rapture

< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 7/22/2006 6:13:05 AM >

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)

Post #: 52

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 6:15:54 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Level,

Look, we're really not on the same wavelength. No point continuing this.

NorthernGent

That is most humorous. You were not on the same wavelength as ANY of us in the racism thread, but you argued until you were blue in the face, desperate to convince everybody that you were right and they were wrong. In fact you are doing it again in this thread with meatcleaver. However, when Level brings up a valid point that you can not argue you shut him down and say there is no point in continuing the discussion. How pathetic.

Pathetic? I find it more disturbing that someone sees and wants an 'arguement' - rather than a discussion.

Incitement, maybe?

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 53

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 6:25:41 AM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

Call it whatever you want... That is your right. However, someone who clearly had no idea what he was talking about in the racism thread, dragging his beef into this thread, telling meatcleaver he got his ass handed to him in that thread is the only one "inciting an argument". Frankly, I think he is a loser and I had no intentions of listening to two more words from him. I can think of better things to do with My day.

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 7/22/2006 6:27:06 AM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 54

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 6:35:43 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Call it whatever you want... That is your right. However, someone who clearly had no idea what he was talking about in the racism thread, dragging his beef into this thread, telling meatcleaver he got his ass handed to him in that thread is the only one "inciting an argument". Frankly, I think he is a loser and I had no intentions of listening to two more words from him. I can think of better things to do with My day.

So this is now the racism thread? Funny - I thought it was on Freedom of Expression.

Youre desire to try to manipulate a thread by trying to sway peoples thoughts in an attempt to belittle a persons words is incitement. And yes, I do have the freedom to express my thoughts - just as you do - only yours are trying to sway and infringe on peoples thoughts but switching them onto another discussion - basic human rights remember?

Mine are simply only for me.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 55

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 6:38:17 AM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Call it whatever you want... That is your right. However, someone who clearly had no idea what he was talking about in the racism thread, dragging his beef into this thread, telling meatcleaver he got his ass handed to him in that thread is the only one "inciting an argument". Frankly, I think he is a loser and I had no intentions of listening to two more words from him. I can think of better things to do with My day.

So this is now the racism thread? Funny - I thought it was on Freedom of Expression.
Youre desire to try to manipulate a thread by trying to sway peoples thoughts in an attempt to belittle a persons words is incitement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

meatcleaver,

Your quote:

So much for freedom of speach. Just don't argue a point!

I forgot the smilies.

Hmmmmm, I smell a man desperate to jump in and find a chink in the armour after the mauling he received on racism.

Maybe you should pay closer attention next time.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 56

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 6:40:06 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

So - wheres the mauling - seriously? On this thread? Or on another?

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 57

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 6:41:30 AM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

The thing to remember is WHO posted the cartoons. And where they were posted. A picture of a pig drinking milk is only a picture of a pig drinking milk unless it is posted in a certain way in a certain article.

I totally understand what Northeen Gent is getting at and it isn't that far removed from what others are saying.

As for the remark about verbal attacks on the US, well - I would say that the same can be said for the UK and for australian as they are often posted.

Agreed. I was using comments against America as an example, it wasn't a matter of my drawers getting in a knot.

  But whats worse - attacks on a country for its policies - or personal attacks on a poster just because you don't understand, or agree with his stance?
I see no difference, just simple double standards.

Freedom of expression comes with responsibility. Respect for the human, no matter the race, colour or creed is an interesting and beautiful concept, but rarely demonstrated. Basic Human rights state that respect for the dignity for all people is the ultimate goal. Those cartoons broke that declaration and the newspapers that printed them knew that.   Everyone has the right to have their Lifestyle respected, even if people cannot bring to adopt it or accept it for themselves.

No, they don't. If John Doe is a child molester, he doesn't get a free pass because I don't accept his choice of lifestyle. Yeah, I know, that's a radical example, but a valid one.

Everyone under HRL has the freedom to express personal thought and expression.   'This right includes freedom to seek, receive, and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing, in print, in the form of art, or through any other medium of one's choice ' Within that statement, one should also expect a certain response from others in kind. Hate is perpetuated - (as is being shown quite clearly by this thread).

I agree, and I can't figure out why Northern Gent hates us.
Now, I don't hate him. Don't know him. Disagreement is not hate.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 58

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 6:43:10 AM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

What he is saying is that the supposed "mauling" (which actually never really happened. Northern just wasted 10 pages repeating himself on a topic he actually knew nothing about) happened on the racism thread. Northern, in an extremely pathetic attempt at demoralizing his opponent to try and present his own position as stronger than it really was dragged it into this thread for ammunition. If ANYONE is trying to incite an argument, it is him.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 59

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 6:45:26 AM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

So - wheres the mauling - seriously? On this thread? Or on another?
Peace and Rapture

SK is stating that it was Northern Gent that dragged the rascism thread into this one.

Ah, SK was quicker on the draw regarding the above.

One more thing, dark. To equate a cartoon with violence does actual violence a disservice. If somebody draws a picture of me with my head in my ass, and someone else burns my house down, are you going to say that's "equal"??

< Message edited by Level -- 7/22/2006 6:48:21 AM >

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 60

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