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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 6:46:32 AM   
MrrPete


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lilmissbossy

quote:

ORIGINAL: pantera

I LOVE this country, I would fight for it, and I know it is the best country in the world


You should travel more


I have to agree with pantera and I HAVE traveled West to Vietnam; East to Lebbonon; South to Chile and North to Alaska. I've been through "the Ditch" [Panama canal] twice and crossed the equator 6 times. The ONLY place I'd consider living outside the US is Scotland. But I doubt they'd let me.


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Awrabest,

Mr. Pete

Boycott Citgo

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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 6:47:15 AM   
EnglishDomNW


Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

What is your obsession with minorities?  Is the majority somehow less sensitive to violence than a minority?  Do Christians deserve less religious respect than Muslims just because they're in a majority?  It seems to me that unless you're a minority, you personally don't offer any support to anyone.

It isnt about the minority - it is about the bigotry any minority or majority is subjected to and in the UK (sorry - just using UK as an example as that seems to be the topic here on this particualr response) - muslims, being a minority are subjected to incredible racial abuse - that part is undeniable and coming from and being raised in an area that I was a minority in retrospect, I saw that every day.
 
 
quote:

But that's my point.  You concentrate all your posts on condemning the cartoon and not the violent reaction to it, as if somehow you feel the reaction is either less important or (worse), understandable because a minority is responsible for that reaction.

Inciting the violence is what the cartoon was achieving and is a basic human right infringment.  One is not less than the other. 
I'm sorry, this is so ludicrous it actually made me laugh. 
 
Of course one is less than the other. 
Of course viewing a cartoon that offends you is less than murder. 
Of course viewing a cartoon is less than burning down a house, threatening to behead someone or throwing rocks at people. 
 
This apologetic nonsense deserves all the derision it gets.  If you're offended by a cartoon, you demonstrate.  You boycott.  You can, if possible, attempt to get the law changed.  You don't KILL people.   Please remain in the realms of reality and stop excusing violence because someone was religiously offended by a cartoon for heaven's sake. 
 
While you're excusing this violence, you're also giving a green light to anyone that gets offended by something to use violence as a reaction.  For someone that has "Peace and rapture" as her signature, you should probably review your own opinions.
 

_____________________________


"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 6:50:24 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Come now. Not to dish Scotland but I could think of several countries in Europe, plus Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Japan.

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 6:56:29 AM   
darkinshadows


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Hello Level -
You know how much I love your posts  -
 
I can only respond for the way I read each post - so I am not saying this is exactly what  NG was getting at, but its my interpretation.
 
Agreed. I was using comments against America as an example, it wasn't a matter of my drawers getting in a knot.
I realised you were not getting your drawers in a knot...(although my own imagination had you in some rather neat tight boxers actually....)  My interpretation was that he agreed with you on the US point, and thats why He didnt feel the need to continue as you were basically reaching the same goal - even if the paths were a little different.
 
 
No, they don't. If John Doe is a child molester, he doesn't get a free pass because I don't accept his choice of lifestyle. Yeah, I know, that's a radical example, but a valid one.
 
The John Doe example is a radical - but excellent example of basic human rights /freedom of expression - I completely agree and HR insists that others rights are not infringed upon by ones personal rights.  That is where the 'respect' comes into the equasion.
 
I agree, and I can't figure out why Northern Gent hates us.
Now, I don't hate him. Don't know him. Disagreement is not hate.
 
I really didnt see how He 'hates' you - again, I havent read the racism thread so I have no idea on the history between any of you there - I am simply working on this thread and prefere not to be clouded by other threads(even though someone is trying to desperately get me to be) - and again, you are completely correct, disagreement isnt hate - and I respect you deeply for your wisdom on knowing the difference between disagreement/discussion and others trying to incite arguments.  Maybe I can see links between the posts that maybe others can't see.  Or maybe I am just having a bit of wishful thinking and playing the part of peacemaker...
 
Peace and Rapture
 


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.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 7:02:10 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

So - wheres the mauling - seriously?  On this thread?  Or on another?
Peace and Rapture



SK is stating that it was Northern Gent that dragged the rascism thread into this one.
 
Ah, SK was quicker on the draw regarding the above.
 
One more thing, dark. To equate a cartoon with violence does actual violence a disservice. If somebody draws a picture of me with my head in my ass, and someone else burns my house down, are you going to say that's "equal"??

 

Hmm... yes I can see how I may have misrepresented what I meant.  My apology.
I did not mean a cartoon with violence.  I am speak of cartoons or literature or any medium - violent or not - that incites racial violence being no different to a violent act.  The violence within the cartoon is not the issue - it is the message behind the cartoon and in which publications they are posted.  And yes, I then see a violent act - and a publication made to incite violence as equal.  Does that make explaination make stance clearer?
Thanks in advance
 
Peace and Rapture
 
*opps...edit - thank you for taking the time to explain about the racism thread
 


< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 7/22/2006 7:03:55 AM >

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 7:06:46 AM   
darkinshadows


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You just showed you didnt understand a word of my post.  Must be my 'pedantic over articulate - over educated ' responses you moan at me about that you obviously don't have the intellect to understand.
 
quote:

While you're excusing this violence, you're also giving a green light to anyone that gets offended by something to use violence as a reaction.  For someone that has "Peace and rapture" as her signature, you should probably review your own opinions.
 
I didn't excuse the violence so I would be grateful if you didnt twist words and maybe tried relying on the truth instead of trying to misrepresent what is actually written and taking complete posts out of context.
 
Peace and Rapture
(moans about the bloody send key)


< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 7/22/2006 7:09:43 AM >

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 7:08:53 AM   
EnglishDomNW


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quote:

yes, I then see a violent act - and a publication made to incite violence as equal.

 
They're your words, not mine.

_____________________________


"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 7:11:44 AM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

Hello Level -
You know how much I love your posts  -
 
Hello to you, pretty lady, and thank you . I enjoy you as well.
 
quote:

Agreed. I was using comments against America as an example, it wasn't a matter of my drawers getting in a knot.
I realised you were not getting your drawers in a knot...(although my own imagination had you in some rather neat tight boxers actually....)  My interpretation was that he agreed with you on the US point, and thats why He didnt feel the need to continue as you were basically reaching the same goal - even if the paths were a little different.
 
 
I don't think he agreed with anything that came out of my mouth, hence his attempts at dismissing me. Of course he doesn't have to explain or respond to anything I say, but I know I would offer explanation to someone who asked for it, or didn't seem to be "getting it".
 
quote:

No, they don't. If John Doe is a child molester, he doesn't get a free pass because I don't accept his choice of lifestyle. Yeah, I know, that's a radical example, but a valid one.
 
The John Doe example is a radical - but excellent example of basic human rights /freedom of expression - I completely agree and HR insists that others rights are not infringed upon by ones personal rights.  That is where the 'respect' comes into the equasion.
 
Respect is a wonderful thing, and if there were more of it in the world, we might very well be better off. But I would hold up one's right to disrespectful, in order for them to have freedom of expression.
 
quote:

I agree, and I can't figure out why Northern Gent hates us.
Now, I don't hate him. Don't know him. Disagreement is not hate.
 
I really didnt see how He 'hates' you - again, I havent read the racism thread so I have no idea on the history between any of you there - I am simply working on this thread and prefere not to be clouded by other threads(even though someone is trying to desperately get me to be) - and again, you are completely correct, disagreement isnt hate - and I respect you deeply for your wisdom on knowing the difference between disagreement/discussion and others trying to incite arguments.  Maybe I can see links between the posts that maybe others can't see.  Or maybe I am just having a bit of wishful thinking and playing the part of peacemaker...
 
Peace and Rapture
 
I was just teasing when I said he "hates" me or anyone else; again, I don't know him, but I would be very surprised if anyone on this side of the discussion hates him, either.
 
Tight boxers, huh....


_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 7:12:23 AM   
darkinshadows


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Then try and understand it instead of just placing your own interpretation on it.
If a cartoon effort is to incite violence - that is an act of violence in itself.
There is a difference in a cartoon that ridicules a act/ race/ minority/sex to one that is posted to incite violence or hatred.
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 7:14:41 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

Tight boxers, huh....
 
Well, I could have been more honest - I admit - and said naked - but that might infringe on your basic human right...
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 7:17:52 AM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

Tight boxers, huh....
 
Well, I could have been more honest - I admit - and said naked - but that might infringe on your basic human right...
 
Peace and Rapture



 Oh, infringe away.............*places my forearm on my forehead as I watch my rights and briefs go floating away*

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 7:20:09 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

Tight boxers, huh....
 
Well, I could have been more honest - I admit - and said naked - but that might infringe on your basic human right...
 
Peace and Rapture



 Oh, infringe away.............*places my forearm on my forehead as I watch my rights and briefs go floating away*

Oh my  - now there's an offer I just cannot refuse... can we dance off (again) into the sunset?
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 7:23:12 AM   
EnglishDomNW


Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Then try and understand it instead of just placing your own interpretation on it.
If a cartoon effort is to incite violence - that is an act of violence in itself.
There is a difference in a cartoon that ridicules a act/ race/ minority/sex to one that is posted to incite violence or hatred.
 
Peace and Rapture



We'll just have to agree to disagree.  Challenging a faith in Denmark does not carry the death penalty.  Being offended by a cartoon is one thing.  Murdering someone because of that offence is probably just a little worse.

_____________________________


"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 7:23:29 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

1) You know the point I'm getting at. The cartoons were intended to incite prejudice and prey on people's fears about the muslim world - many Europeans see Muslim/Islam as a race and the cartoonist was well aware of this....


Many Europeans may very well be aware of that, but you yourself, cannot be aware of what the intentions of the cartoonist were, unless you are a mindreader.

If that is indeed the case, I know a nice man named Randi who is holding 1 million US dollars in escrow, just especially for you.

If on the other hand, you are just ascribing motives to the cartoonist, then your point is not validated until we know for sure the real motives. 

The fact that someone took offense at a published work is far too tenuous a connection to support the hanging of labels on the originator.

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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 7:29:18 AM   
darkinshadows


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Yes, we agree to disagree - but you have picked out a key issue on Freedom of Expression, which is your thread after all.  If one truely wants freedom of expression to be a basic human right - one has to take human rights issues into consideration - One does not exist without the other, else there would be anarchy.
 
quote:

Any propaganda for war and any advocacy of national, racial, or religious hatred that constitute incitements to lawless violence or to any other similar action against any person or group of persons on any grounds including those of race, color, religion, language, or national origin shall be considered as offenses punishable by law.
It is firing the first bullet and not hitting someone - then blaming the other side for inflicting the first casualty.
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 8:07:20 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

1) You know the point I'm getting at. The cartoons were intended to incite prejudice and prey on people's fears about the muslim world - many Europeans see Muslim/Islam as a race and the cartoonist was well aware of this....


Many Europeans may very well be aware of that, but you yourself, cannot be aware of what the intentions of the cartoonist were, unless you are a mindreader.



True. One of the strengths and weaknesses of images and cartoons are their ambiguity and their openess to intepretation. The artist releases them into the world and they take on a life of their own.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 8:08:17 AM   
EnglishDomNW


Posts: 493
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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Yes, we agree to disagree - but you have picked out a key issue on Freedom of Expression, which is your thread after all.  If one truely wants freedom of expression to be a basic human right - one has to take human rights issues into consideration - One does not exist without the other, else there would be anarchy.
 
quote:

Any propaganda for war and any advocacy of national, racial, or religious hatred that constitute incitements to lawless violence or to any other similar action against any person or group of persons on any grounds including those of race, color, religion, language, or national origin shall be considered as offenses punishable by law.
It is firing the first bullet and not hitting someone - then blaming the other side for inflicting the first casualty.
 
Peace and Rapture




Publishing a cartoon is not "firing the first bullet".

You don't die from viewing a cartoon  (unless your offence is so great you keel over from a heart attack).  People died as a result of the over-reaction to that cartoon

You'll notice in your statement in blue it reads "Punishable by law" and not "Punishable by a mob with rocks and machetes and their own interpretation of justice".

Being from a religious faith does not give you licence to murder someone that offends you no matter how many times you post on here and make excuses for it.

I can't help wondering what your reaction would be if a white English Christian who viewed the insulting picture of the Christian God in the Independent had gone out and beheaded the publisher.

Horrified and outraged?

< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 7/22/2006 8:28:06 AM >

_____________________________


"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 8:19:33 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Yes, we agree to disagree - but you have picked out a key issue on Freedom of Expression, which is your thread after all.  If one truely wants freedom of expression to be a basic human right - one has to take human rights issues into consideration - One does not exist without the other, else there would be anarchy.
 
quote:

Any propaganda for war and any advocacy of national, racial, or religious hatred that constitute incitements to lawless violence or to any other similar action against any person or group of persons on any grounds including those of race, color, religion, language, or national origin shall be considered as offenses punishable by law.
It is firing the first bullet and not hitting someone - then blaming the other side for inflicting the first casualty.
 
Peace and Rapture




'Constitutes incitement to lawless violence' in the context cited above, is a phrase with a specific meaning...distorting that meaning is no different than crying 'rape', or 'murder',  when none has occured.

Labelling something that does not meet the elements of the crimes above, as a crime, merely because you disagree with it, or someone else disagreed with it, (even if their disagreement was expressed violently), does no one a service.

In fact, one could point out that it is an attempt to legitimize the violence...and why would anyone want to do that?

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 8:20:38 AM   
EnglishDomNW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
In fact, one could point out that it is an attempt to legitimize the violence...and why would anyone want to do that?


Now there is a great question.

_____________________________


"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 8:31:10 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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quote:

Being from a religious faith does not give you licence to murder someone that offends you no matter how many times you post on here and make excuses for it.


Indeed it doesn't.  Any murder in my opinion, isn't acceptable.  Nor are images that incite hatred of any kind.
quote:

I can't help wondering what your reaction would be if a white English Christian who viewed the insulting picture of God in the Independent had gone out and beheaded someone.

Horrified and outraged?


I wouldn't feel either as my religion, as a practising christian, is one of love - not hate.  To me, images meant to upset me, have no power - nothing has power over me except that which I allow.  I believe in God and His love and am secure within it.  The God I believe in - the teachings of Jesus - is a loving and merciful one - and I follow His example.  Therefore, I am unaffected by whatever someone wants to try and throw at me on a personal level.
 
Peace and Rapture


< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 7/22/2006 8:38:53 AM >

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)
Profile   Post #: 80
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