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RE: Victim Statement from Stanford Rape Victim - 6/13/2016 7:44:03 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Sam, hello there....
First of all, I dont think you are aware of the case because of this first bit.

quote:

I'm not sure what happened here- except that there's a three ring media circus with even the VP chiming in.


Read up the case. He was found guilty of three felony charges. Two witnesses.
It wasnt rape, because his dick didnt penetrate, but his fingers did.
He got caught on top of her by two men.
Please read on the case properly and then I will respond.
PS I believe in facts, wether its male or female I most certainly do not automatically believe anyone because Ive been on both sides of this.
The last thing...because there is just too much assuming going on in your post...
Innocent until found guilty presumption....what has this got to do with this case
He was found guilty of three felonies.
Therefore he has been found guilty and was UP FOR SENTENCING.

as for the rest, meh




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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Victim Statement from Stanford Rape Victim - 6/13/2016 8:06:19 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Lucy

My reading of the facts differs from yours...

The way he was found by the two cyclists sounds like it would support a charge of battery, i.e. he was beating her up or attempting to- but I'm not sure that it supports rape.

That a jury finds something doesn't make it fact in my book, although that's the way the legal system works.

My counter is that a jury found OJ not guilty- because of reasonable doubt due to prejudicial actions by the police- but my hunch is that he did in fact murder Nicole Brown. I actually agree with the not guilty verdict because there's reasonable doubt.

Whether rape or not happens in this case is dependent upon intent. If his thought process was I'm going to violate this woman's body even knowing she doesn't want me to- that's rape. If she invites him to feel her vagina claiming she's wet- that's not. (And the middle case of him thinking she wants him to and her thinking no is another can of worms.) What happened? My thought process is it's impossible to distinguish between these two possibilities given that both are drunk. I think the the juries findings are in error. What if there's an appeal and he's found not guilty? Giving the judge some credit- what if he also thought the juries findings were in error and decided that the shorter sentence was appropriate? I'm not crazy about this idea- especially given his explanation.

All in all, this case does not inspire confidence in our legal system-I suspect we can both agree upon that.

As another hypothetical- if the woman hadn't been drunk, and the charge of rape had been well substantiated- and then the kid from Stanford got a six month sentence- then I can understand the outrage because it would certainly validate the notion that the rich kid skated from a heinous act. But in this case- I'm just not sure who the predator is....


Sam

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Victim Statement from Stanford Rape Victim - 6/13/2016 8:13:18 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Whether rape or not happens in this case is dependent upon intent.

No this is wrong wrong wrong.

Whether rape or not happens in this case is dependent upon the presence or absence of consent. Period.

Whether rape or not happens in any case is dependent upon the presence or absence of consent. Period.

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Victim Statement from Stanford Rape Victim - 6/13/2016 8:14:38 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		yeah ok
not responding to any more of the crap...
the ignorance is making me angry.


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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Victim Statement from Stanford Rape Victim - 6/13/2016 8:37:55 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Lucy

I'm just trying to answer your initial question- and as a suggestion- if you can't accept a polite response, then maybe you shouldn't have asked the question.

Let me clarify what I would consider to be clear and unequivocal evidence that a rape had been committed given that the accuser was drunk at the time- a 911 phone call by a witness who wasn't drunk reporting a crime. From my reading on this case- none of the "witnesses" came forward at the time and took this action. This suggests that they are less than reliable. I'm reading the reports that have come out critically- and what I'm suggesting is that the case has clearly been sensationalized- which makes figuring out what's happened from our distant perspective difficult.

You asked for a different perspective- I've given you one.

Sam


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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Victim Statement from Stanford Rape Victim - 6/13/2016 8:41:35 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		the two men on bikes who caught him were drunk?

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RE: Victim Statement from Stanford Rape Victim - 6/13/2016 8:47:37 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It's sad to note the lack of response to this thread. It's not as though the facts of the case were in dispute. Or that the case hasn't attracted much attention.

Yet we have some people posting here making a big deal about rape. Posting repeatedly about rape. Yet they are silent on this rape.
I've already called him a piece of shit who should've gone to prison for ten years in another thread. I don't feel the need to repeat myself just because you're feeling self-righteous.


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RE: Victim Statement from Stanford Rape Victim - 6/13/2016 8:54:41 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It's sad to note the lack of response to this thread. It's not as though the facts of the case were in dispute. Or that the case hasn't attracted much attention.

Yet we have some people posting here making a big deal about rape. Posting repeatedly about rape. Yet they are silent on this rape.
I've already called him a piece of shit who should've gone to prison for ten years in another thread. I don't feel the need to repeat myself just because you're feeling self-righteous.


yeahhhh whatever ........ yawn.

I see you did feel the need to bignote yourself yet again. Do you operate on the principle that if you keep on bignoting yourself to us someone somewhere might actually be stupid enough to believe it?

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Victim Statement from Stanford Rape Victim - 6/13/2016 8:58:20 AM   
Awareness


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Joined: 9/8/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
You were failed by a culture on our college campuses where one in five women is sexually assaulted — year after year after year. A culture that promotes passivity. That encourages young men and women on campuses to simply turn a blind eye.
Jesus wept, this is utterly false and has been debunked over and over, for fuck's sake. The researchers involved make this clear in their own commentary on their study which was web-based, included acts as innocuous as "kissing" and occurred across TWO FUCKING UNIVERSITIES. http://time.com/3633903/campus-rape-1-in-5-sexual-assault-setting-record-straight/

quote:

The statistics on college sexual assault haven’t gone down in the past two decades. It’s obscene, and it’s a failure that lies at all our feet.
Bullshit. The statistics for rape have dropped the last 20 years. This fuckwit has no idea what he's talking about, he's just parroting anti-male dogma.




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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Victim Statement from Stanford Rape Victim - 6/13/2016 9:02:58 AM   
pleasnpetrichor


Posts: 72
Joined: 1/13/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
yeahhhh whatever ........ yawn.

I see you did feel the need to bignote yourself yet again. Do you operate on the principle that if you keep on bignoting yourself to us someone somewhere might actually be stupid enough to believe it?


It's sad to see you reduced to making these types of comments on a thread you purportedly take so seriously.

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Victim Statement from Stanford Rape Victim - 6/13/2016 9:06:10 AM   
Wayward5oul


Posts: 3314
Joined: 11/9/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
My reading of the facts differs from yours...


Then maybe you should get an adult to read it to you.
(Yes, I know that's thompsonx's line, but I thought it was actually fitting here.)

quote:

The way he was found by the two cyclists sounds like it would support a charge of battery, i.e. he was beating her up or attempting to-


Medical examinations confirmed trauma to the genital area.

quote:

but I'm not sure that it supports rape.

He was not convicted of rape. He was convicted on three felony counts of sexual assault: assault with intent to commit rape of an intoxicated or unconscious person, penetrating an intoxicated person with a foreign object and penetrating an unconscious person with a foreign object.

quote:

That a jury finds something doesn't make it fact in my book, although that's the way the legal system works.


I am more willing to believe in the reliability of the twelve people who heard all the accounts of the event by the people actually involved, versus someone who can't even get the basic facts correct after reading about them.

quote:

My counter is that a jury found OJ not guilty- because of reasonable doubt due to prejudicial actions by the police- but my hunch is that he did in fact murder Nicole Brown. I actually agree with the not guilty verdict because there's reasonable doubt.

That one out-of-this-world-fucked-up-case does not define the entirety of the justice system.

quote:

Whether rape or not happens in this case is dependent upon intent.


Bullshit. Consent, and the ability to give consent. She was passed out. Unable to give consent. That is the legal definition of rape, regardless of what you want to make it in your warped mind.

quote:

If his thought process was I'm going to violate this woman's body even knowing she doesn't want me to- that's rape. If she invites him to feel her vagina claiming she's wet- that's not. (And the middle case of him thinking she wants him to and her thinking no is another can of worms.) What happened? My thought process is it's impossible to distinguish between these two possibilities given that both are drunk.

She was passed out on the ground. Pretty easy to distinguish that she was not asked about her thought process beforehand.

He, on the other hand, ran. He was aware enough to take off when he caught, so he knew what he was doing was wrong. These were not two policeman who came upon them, these were two random dudes on bicycles. No reason for him to run unless he was scared of getting caught.

quote:

I think the the juries findings are in error.

Thats what happens when you can't read.

quote:

But in this case- I'm just not sure who the predator is....


In what universe could anyone imply that she was the predator?

Cretin.


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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Victim Statement from Stanford Rape Victim - 6/13/2016 9:08:23 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Coming from the biggest misogynist on the board.




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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Victim Statement from Stanford Rape Victim - 6/13/2016 9:10:58 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pleasnpetrichor

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
yeahhhh whatever ........ yawn.

I see you did feel the need to bignote yourself yet again. Do you operate on the principle that if you keep on bignoting yourself to us someone somewhere might actually be stupid enough to believe it?


It's sad to see you reduced to making these types of comments on a thread you purportedly take so seriously.

reduced?
LMFAO



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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Victim Statement from Stanford Rape Victim - 6/13/2016 9:16:46 AM   
Awareness


Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Coming from the biggest misogynist on the board.



Your inability to construct an argument is not my problem. And honestly, feminists claiming anyone who oppose them is a misogynist is just pathetic. Try thinking for once in your life.


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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Victim Statement from Stanford Rape Victim - 6/13/2016 9:19:30 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
You were failed by a culture on our college campuses where one in five women is sexually assaulted — year after year after year. A culture that promotes passivity. That encourages young men and women on campuses to simply turn a blind eye.
Jesus wept, this is utterly false and has been debunked over and over, for fuck's sake. The researchers involved make this clear in their own commentary on their study which was web-based, included acts as innocuous as "kissing" and occurred across TWO FUCKING UNIVERSITIES. http://time.com/3633903/campus-rape-1-in-5-sexual-assault-setting-record-straight/

quote:

The statistics on college sexual assault haven’t gone down in the past two decades. It’s obscene, and it’s a failure that lies at all our feet.
Bullshit. The statistics for rape have dropped the last 20 years. This fuckwit has no idea what he's talking about, he's just parroting anti-male dogma.





Read your own fucking links.

"the 1-in-5 statistic includes victims of both rape and other forms of sexual assault, such as forced kissing or unwanted groping of sexual body parts—acts that can legally constitute sexual battery and are crimes. "

But I guess, given that you're such a victim of all this female oppression, you think it's ok to indulge in forced kissing and unwanted groping.

But then, I think that any man who tries to argue that unwanted kissing and groping are ok, has to be a bit of a loser.


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RE: Victim Statement from Stanford Rape Victim - 6/13/2016 9:25:51 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pleasnpetrichor

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
yeahhhh whatever ........ yawn.

I see you did feel the need to bignote yourself yet again. Do you operate on the principle that if you keep on bignoting yourself to us someone somewhere might actually be stupid enough to believe it?


It's sad to see you reduced to making these types of comments on a thread you purportedly take so seriously.

Do you think I ought to take Awareness's BS, ignorance and monumental egotism seriously?

Because, if you do, you are so on your own.

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Victim Statement from Stanford Rape Victim - 6/13/2016 9:27:07 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Coming from the biggest misogynist on the board.



Your inability to construct an argument is not my problem. And honestly, feminists claiming anyone who oppose them is a misogynist is just pathetic. Try thinking for once in your life.


im sorry you have proven time and time again you cannot back up your anti feminist/woman hate filled bullshit arguments with anything but fucked up "facts" and your apparent lordliness over all information, there is no point arguing with a tiny closed mind.
You are simply not worth the effort.





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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Victim Statement from Stanford Rape Victim - 6/13/2016 9:30:18 AM   
Wayward5oul


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
From my reading on this case- none of the "witnesses" came forward at the time and took this action. This suggests that they are less than reliable.

Wrong. The two cyclists who came upon the scene stopped it, chased Turner when he ran, caught him, called the police, and held him until the police arrived. They gave statements at that time.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Victim Statement from Stanford Rape Victim - 6/13/2016 9:48:36 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		I'm basing most of my conclusions on this article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/13/us/brock-turner-stanford-rape.html

That there's a Stanford law professor, Michelle Dauber, who's also friends with the victim- and has called her the next Rosa Parks, should alert people that there's a lot of undercurrents in this case that we don't know about, but should regard with suspicion.

While it's certainly possible to read the kid's actions of running away as "guilty as hell"- another alternative is the following-
1) He was quite intoxicated- which really should make anyone wonder if he was really capable of doing what he's charged with- or whether given the level of intoxication of both people- that the woman was of some assistance.
2) Ever see Risky Business? Remember the line- "Joel, get off the babysitter!" delivered by the police? He's an 18 y.o. kid- he could quite possibly be a virgin, but if not, very inexperienced is still likely. Sex is scary for youngsters- so the fact that he ran when confronted is by no means an admission of guilt of rape. Given the NY Times article- I'm not sure that there's even a charge of battery- the law in this case seems to revolve around the inability of a drunken woman to consent to sex.
3) From my perspective- there seems to be a double standard here- if a woman is drunk and says- "have sex with me!" she doesn't really mean it because she's too drunk to give consent? How does that make the equally drunk male with her more culpable? Note that this was the prosecutor's argument in advising a shorter sentence. I'll admit, I don't get this....
4) If he's really a typical 18 y.o. kid- then the appellation of "monster" is wildly inappropriate. And having met my share of kids that age- I find a more likely explanation here is that two drunk young people had some kind of misunderstanding fueled by alcohol and poor judgement.- but the cry of rape sounds suspiciously politically motivated by a certain law professor.

I find it impossible to distinguish here between an act of violence and "morning after regret." I do not see any "smoking gun" evidence of rape- but I do see a lot of maneuvering to exploit the situation and the young people involved.


Sam

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Victim Statement from Stanford Rape Victim - 6/13/2016 10:11:17 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		you are making excuses.
"morning after regret" when she doesnt remember anything and woke up in the hospital and had to READ about what they found when they got to her.?
he hasnt just been charged, he has been found GUILTY on THREE COUNTS of sexual assault.
Hes not 18, he is an adult of 20.
If a guy stuck a finger up your ass and you had pine needles inside you, would it make a difference between a finger and a dick? Beyond the size and the STD issue?
did you read the victim statement?

fuck how ignorant




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Profile   Post #: 100
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