RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process?

RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (Full Version)

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thompsonx -> RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (6/28/2016 8:35:14 PM)
ORIGINAL: BamaD Do you not realize that the 3/5 compromise was the first blow agaisnt slavery No it was not. Jesus you are phoquing stupid. As for racism at the college were I got my degree I heard about how white people had no part in building this country, the school was 95% black. Who told you that???the janitor? Since then I have been accused of racism because a black guy because he heard me talking about Clinton ripping off veterans so he assumed since I am white I was attacking Obama , and that the only possible reason for disagreeing with Obama would be that I was racist. Yep there is racism. So now we owe you a pity party?

ifmaz -> RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (6/28/2016 9:26:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML ... I ask you again, do you have a better plan for the government's compelling interest to safeguard the nation against terror. Please address my question. Domestically: offer firearm safety and training courses in schools. Offer tax benefits for buying a made-in-America firearm, range time, and a gun safe. Allow concealed and open carry like Vermont -- no permit required. End "gun-free zones" as they very clearly do not work. Stop limiting people's rights; end NSA/FBI spying and the war on encryption. Internationally: stop shipping weapons overseas to arm 'dissidents of the week'. Stop funding other countries. Follow a non-interventionist policy, prefer "defensively armed neutrality". End trade sanctions against other countries. Promote free trade.

thompsonx -> RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (6/28/2016 9:33:31 PM)
ORIGINAL: ifmaz Offer tax benefits for buying a made-in-America firearm, End trade sanctions against other countries. Promote free trade. How does one subsidize amerikan gun production without it being a sanction against a non amerikan gun producer?[8\|]

Real0ne -> RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (6/28/2016 10:02:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD I am all for investigating people on the terror lists, if they aren't investigating them what is the point of the lists. But don't you think penalizing them before you have proof. It is like holding everyone who lives near where a crime was committed till you sort out which one did it. Yup, that's pretty much how this pink-commie-liberal-Sanders-supporter sees it also. You either have a right to own a gun or you don't. If you do, then that right should not be abridged without due process.... real due process not the crap Bush & Obama have foisted on us. Insofar as the terrorist watch lists themselves, I'd like to throw them in the garbage can along with the organizations that developed them. Secret process with secret criteria which yield semi-random lists of people who have no idea they are being accused of anything and who have no real recourse for getting off said list. That is utter bullshit. They might as well name them "List of State's Enemies" and be done with it. ~FR~ So again, folks -- does this mean you would support, for example, eliminating the Department of Homeland Theater, just let people get onto planes w/o searches or lists? Or would you wait until they attack the plane? Would the carnage be justified by liberty? Are you writing Congress to get it changed? Wanna bet that you write congress complaining about it and you are put on a terrorist list? I told everyone about this way back in 911 arguments when I posted that FBI pamphlet and was laughed out of here calling me a fucking conspiracy theorist. Well as everyone can see its now very fucking real. Damn straight, MM the only other choice is pre-crime punishment, of wait they took that lesson from municipalities and its not in our future its already well imbedded in our 'free' society. makes me want to gag to even say facetiously. Jeff, this is why leaving the old words used before the creation of the united states namely 'trespass' is so important to maintain despite its nearly complete extinction. I can ramble on for hours about all the necessary law that used to be and is no longer that resulted from the coup. Precrime From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Criminology and penology Precrime is a term coined by science fiction author Philip K. Dick. It is increasingly used in academic literature to describe and criticise the tendency in criminal justice systems to focus on crimes not yet committed. Pre-crime has been defined as 'substantive coercive state interventions targeted at non-imminent crimes'. Pre-crime intervenes to punish, disrupt, incapacitate or restrict those deemed to embody future crime threats. The term pre-crime embodies a temporal paradox, suggesting both that a crime has not occurred and that the crime that has not occurred is a foregone conclusion (McCulloch and Wilson 2016). Pre-crime in criminal justice practice 'Pre-crime stands at the temporal frontline of a criminal justice system increasingly preoccupied with anticipating threats' and is the antithesis of the traditional criminal justice systems focus on past crimes (McCulloch and Wilson 2016). Traditionally, criminal justice and punishment presupposes evidence of a crime being committed. This time-honored principle is violated once punishment is meted out “for crimes never committed” (Anttila 1975, who criticised the measure of security detention). Today, a clear example of this trend is “nachträgliche Sicherungsverwahrung" (retrospective security detention), which became an option in German criminal law in 2004. This “measure of security” can be decided upon at the end of a prison sentence on a purely prognostic basis (Boetticher/Feest 2008, 263 sq.). In France, a similarly retrospective measure was introduced in 2008 as “rétention de sûreté” (security detention). The German measure was viewed as violating the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union by the European Court of Human Rights in 2009. It was, however, never completely abolished in Germany and new legislation is envisaged to continue this practice under the new name “Therapieunterbringung” (detention for therapy).[citation needed]. Pre-crime is most obvious and advanced in the context of counter-terrorism, though it is argued that far from countering terrorism, pre-crime produces the futures it purports to preempt (McCulloch/Pickering 2009). Current techiques Specialist software now exists for crime-prediction by analysing data.[4] [image]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Fantastic_universe_195601.jpg[/image] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLxZ36oOvOQ This is 100% 'spying' and 100% a violation of privacy. Its does not ONLY spy on a person being investigated but logs everyone.

Termyn8or -> RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (6/29/2016 12:45:47 AM)
By extension, a DUI is a pre-crime punishment. If you did not get into a wreck, run someone over or cause damage you have not committed a crime. But I would not be stupid enough to use that as a defense in these fucked up courts with these fucked up "laws". The Rodriguez case says there is no crime without a victim, but they punish you for not following their regulations. T^T

tweakabelle -> RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (6/29/2016 1:42:52 AM)
A version of the notion of pre-crime punishment has been employed in Western jurisprudence for a long time now. In assessing and handing down sentences after conviction, one of the primary considerations is the likelihood of the offender re-offending. If re-offending is considered unlikely, a lighter sentence is indicated. In instances where the risk of re-offending is thought negligible, defence counsel will often use this as a specific argument for a lighter sentence. Conversely, when there is a serious risk of re-offending, a heavier sentence is indicated and often handed down. There is a difference between 'pre-crime punishment' and the risk of an offender re-offending but there is also an awful lot of similarity between the two.

Termyn8or -> RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (6/29/2016 3:04:22 AM)
When the "crime" has no victim it is a bill of attainder which is unconstitutional. T^T

thompsonx -> RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (6/29/2016 4:49:15 AM)
ORIGINAL: Termyn8or When the "crime" has no victim it is a bill of attainder which is unconstitutional. Prostitution,gambling,suicide,drugs and homosexuality are typically the five victimless crimes in amerika.

mnottertail -> RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (6/29/2016 5:32:25 AM)
the trial is there, it is at trial they determine the pre-crime. it is no bill of attainder (that would be congress).

vincentML -> RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (6/29/2016 7:53:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ifmaz quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML ... I ask you again, do you have a better plan for the government's compelling interest to safeguard the nation against terror. Please address my question. Domestically: offer firearm safety and training courses in schools. Offer tax benefits for buying a made-in-America firearm, range time, and a gun safe. Allow concealed and open carry like Vermont -- no permit required. End "gun-free zones" as they very clearly do not work. Stop limiting people's rights; end NSA/FBI spying and the war on encryption. Internationally: stop shipping weapons overseas to arm 'dissidents of the week'. Stop funding other countries. Follow a non-interventionist policy, prefer "defensively armed neutrality". End trade sanctions against other countries. Promote free trade. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Domestically aren't there already more guns than people in this country? Anyway, an awful lot. Are you suggesting we teach 6th graders gun safety and allow them to roam well-armed in shopping malls? I suspect you are not but I would have greater fears of getting caught in friendly crossfire than a terrorists' bomb. Consider that protection in "soft targets" would require AR-15 style rifles. I would rather shop Amazon truthfully. Internationally, I agree with changing our interventionist policy. We are not the only gun producers in the world, however. How do ending trade sanctions insure our safety? How do you relate your suggestions to the issue in the OP?

vincentML -> RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (6/29/2016 8:11:59 AM)
quote: Do you not realize that the 3/5 compromise was the first blow agaisnt slavery and all of the seeds to destroy slavery were planted with the compromises made at that time. So, when you say Obama mischaracterized the original flaw are you suggesting he should have praised the 3/5ths compromise as a step toward abolition? In point of fact the 3/5 compromise allowed the slave states to control the House until secession. Abolition of slavery was done at the cost of over 700,000 lives in the Civil War. Maybe a Union should have been formed without the slave states. In any case, America is not free of prejudice against skin color. Racism is a power relationship. I don't believe white Americans for the most part are willing to share power and privilege with people of color, although the millennials give me some hope. As far as I can see you have failed to justify your criticisms of Obama as regards any contempt for the Constitution.

mnottertail -> RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (6/29/2016 8:17:28 AM)
the 3/5ths compromise was not a blow against slavery but a very helpful extension of it. The slave states got more representation of it, and less taxes because of it. Done. That is open to no other interpretation, my statement being the facts as was elucidated in the arguments at the constitutional convention. Anti-slavers were fucking hot about that bit of spineless shit.

BamaD -> RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (6/29/2016 11:40:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Do you not realize that the 3/5 compromise was the first blow agaisnt slavery and all of the seeds to destroy slavery were planted with the compromises made at that time. So, when you say Obama mischaracterized the original flaw are you suggesting he should have praised the 3/5ths compromise as a step toward abolition? In point of fact the 3/5 compromise allowed the slave states to control the House until secession. Abolition of slavery was done at the cost of over 700,000 lives in the Civil War. Maybe a Union should have been formed without the slave states. In any case, America is not free of prejudice against skin color. Racism is a power relationship. I don't believe white Americans for the most part are willing to share power and privilege with people of color, although the millennials give me some hope. As far as I can see you have failed to justify your criticisms of Obama as regards any contempt for the Constitution. You fail, as so many do, to asses the situation properly. Yes they could have formed a union with the 4 or 5 non slave states. And another union with the 8 or 9 slave states. You fail to see that the time between the Revolution and the Civil involved substatial restricting of the slave trade and slavery in general. You fail to see that southerners were turning against slavery. You fail to see that race relations are worse now than when Obama came into office. You fail to see that if white people wouldn't share power with blacks he wouldn't be president. You fail to see that the civil rights movement would not have worked if it had not been for white people. You fail to see that race is not the only issue of importance. And you cannot see that the only thing Obama has ever had going for him is being black. He won both times on black racism and white guilt.

mnottertail -> RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (6/29/2016 11:50:52 AM)
You fail to do anything properly let alone assess the situation. Uh, Herman Cain and Allan West and Ben Carson, all black, but they couldn't get the drip off a dick. so the black white racism guilt shit is asswipe. Race relations have not deteriorated under Obama, they are just called to the fore in the press more nowadays. more ignorant asswipe. Southerners were not turning away from slavery they had the mid-south incubate the slaves to sell down the river. They tried to take mexico, central america and cuba all in an effort to expand slavery. absolutely ignorant asswipe. Epic fail in fact, epic fail in propaganda.

vincentML -> RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (6/29/2016 12:19:46 PM)
quote: You fail to see that the time between the Revolution and the Civil involved substatial restricting of the slave trade and slavery in general. No! Fucking, no! It was a period of desperate expansion efforts by the slave power. In addition to those mentioned by mnottertail, include the Texas rebellion and "bloody Kansas" all driven by the attempt to expand the slave power.

vincentML -> RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (6/29/2016 12:31:18 PM)
quote: You fail to see that if white people wouldn't share power with blacks he wouldn't be president. I remind you of the well told and never denied tale of Republicans gathering at the time of Obama's inauguration to vow congressional obstructionism. So bullshit. quote: You fail to see that the civil rights movement would not have worked if it had not been for white people. Bull Connor and George Wallace, you mean? [8\|] quote: You fail to see that race is not the only issue of importance. It is if you are black or brown skinned. quote: And you cannot see that the only thing Obama has ever had going for him is being black. An extraordinarily intelligent, learned, and eloquent man with a strong sense of morality and human compassion. Furthermore, the number of American troops killed overseas has dropped significantly. Additionally, when he was elected the country was losing 900,000 jobs per month and unemployment was north of 10 %. I believed that has changed under his watch.

BamaD -> RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (6/29/2016 12:52:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: You fail to see that the time between the Revolution and the Civil involved substatial restricting of the slave trade and slavery in general. No! Fucking, no! It was a period of desperate expansion efforts by the slave power. In addition to those mentioned by mnottertail, include the Texas rebellion and "bloody Kansas" all driven by the attempt to expand the slave power. There was far more to the Texas rebellion than slavery. Are you aware that the same people who led the revolution supported Santa Anna because he promissed Constitutional, not one man rule? Are you aware that they didn't turn against Santa Anna till he abolished that constitution. Are you aware that the movement that ended in the Texas revolution began as a demand to be giventhe rights they were promised? Are you aware that in 1835-1836 FOUR Mexican states revolted? Are you aware that there were nearly as many hispanics fighting for Texas as there were Tejanos? Are you aware that the worst atrocity of Bloody Kansas was the massacre of pro slavers by John Brown and company in Lawrenceville Kansas. (not to be confused with Bill Andersons retaliation during the official war) Are you aware of anything in our history that doesn't prove that all white people are racist?

BamaD -> RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (6/29/2016 12:59:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: You fail to see that if white people wouldn't share power with blacks he wouldn't be president. I remind you of the well told and never denied tale of Republicans gathering at the time of Obama's inauguration to vow congressional obstructionism. So bullshit. quote: You fail to see that the civil rights movement would not have worked if it had not been for white people. Bull Connor and George Wallace, you mean? [8\|] quote: You fail to see that race is not the only issue of importance. It is if you are black or brown skinned. quote: And you cannot see that the only thing Obama has ever had going for him is being black. An extraordinarily intelligent, learned, and eloquent man with a strong sense of morality and human compassion. Furthermore, the number of American troops killed overseas has dropped significantly. Additionally, when he was elected the country was losing 900,000 jobs per month and unemployment was north of 10 %. I believed that has changed under his watch. Yep things have changed, we have a larger % of the population that has given up on finding work than ever before, that is where the drop in the unemplyment rate has come from. BTW the unemployment rate among blacks is higher now than the. I mean those thousands of white people who marched in Selma. I mean those white women who provided transportation for the people boycotting the Montfomery buses, without whom the boycott would have failed. I am talking about the freedom riders. I am talking about the FBI. I am talking about the passing of the civil rights act, which, by the way had far more support from the Republicans than the Democrats. I am talking about Charlton Heston who marched along side of MLK. Wake up and smell the coffee. You are a one trick pony who ignores everything that doesn't fit your view.

mnottertail -> RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (6/29/2016 1:30:15 PM)
Yup, all them white people were democrats that marched with King.

lovmuffin -> RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? (6/29/2016 4:34:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Are you suggesting we teach 6th graders gun safety and allow them to roam well-armed in shopping malls? I think he's only suggesting the gun safety part.

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