RE: Voter laws

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Termyn8or -> RE: Voter laws (7/31/2016 8:22:59 PM)
"If they are elderly, possibly not. Lost long ago. Homeless? Nope. " If you are homeless you can't even register to vote. I wonder how the bleeding heart liberal plan to fix that. Oh, I forgot, they do not plan. T^T

JeffBC -> RE: Voter laws (7/31/2016 8:25:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Why do you think it's such a bad idea to make those that voters are actually legally allowed to vote? It's not requiring an ID to vote that is the problem. The problem goes something like this. Citizen is entitled to his or her vote. Government changes rules and says now you must have an ID to vote Government does not take it upon itself to ensure those ID's are readily available.... in fact makes them very difficult to obtain in some cases. Citizen is disenfranchised. Although, as always, the evidence for voter fraud is damned thin on the ground. Election fraud on the other hand, is happening right in front of our eyes and nobody cares. This actually IS a problem and it is a big enough problem to change the outcomes at all levels of the political structure. Nobody cares.

Termyn8or -> RE: Voter laws (7/31/2016 8:31:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: markyugen Do you pro-voter ID people even TRY to educate yourselves as to why it is such a pernicious idea? Or do you prefer to bury your head in the sand and let yourself be scammed because your side just "coincidentally" happens to be the one that benefits from minorities, poor people, students and other supposedly liberal-leaning groups being denied their constitutional right to vote? Google Vote ID as I did, and you come up with a plethora of sites that will tell you why these laws should be abolished. At least then you can claim mendacity and not stupidity as the reason why you take the position you do. How is it that minorities and poor people can't get an ID that allows them to vote? Just because a student ID isn't an allowable form of ID doesn't really mean that student can't vote. Plus, if they're not at their assigned polling place, they will only be able to use a provisional ballot as it is. If they are out-of-town college students, they wouldn't be able to vote there anyway. The mail-in ballot is quite useful in that case, isn't it? That brings up a very interesting point. If you are in your 20s and away at college, where do you vote ? Not just federal elections but I mean like for mayor or whatever, and issues. Should you vote by mail in your hometown thousand miles away or should you be voting for these things where you live now ? You live in the dorm, don't have a house or car and plan on going home as soon as you graduate. Should you have a say in a community you plan on leaving in a year or two, as soon as you are done ? Fuck, I just had a horrible thought - base it on your cellphone area code LOL. Take it to the federal level. Let's say you are in college in a state that is so red that your vote will not make a difference, but you are from a swing state where the margin is much closer. Vote by proxy at home ? Or throw your vote away where you just happen to be ? And if you plan on leaving, you really should not be voting on local issues like property tax levies and all that shit. A big fucking mess is what it is. T^T

Lucylastic -> RE: Voter laws (7/31/2016 8:34:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or "If they are elderly, possibly not. Lost long ago. Homeless? Nope. " If you are homeless you can't even register to vote. I wonder how the bleeding heart liberal plan to fix that. Oh, I forgot, they do not plan. T^T depends where you are. In Canada if you are homeless, you can register to vote. Some bleeding hearts are more organized than others. Aso you can vote if you are incarcerated.

Greta75 -> RE: Voter laws (7/31/2016 8:41:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic In Canada if you are homeless, you can register to vote. I think the fact that one has to register to vote probably make it harder to vote! I mean, if you are citizen, you can vote, why does one need to register to vote at all? Everybody should be by default be automatically registered to vote as long as they are recorded as a citizen in the government records.

Greta75 -> RE: Voter laws (7/31/2016 8:45:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or that equipment is not cheap. With the kind of mass purchase the US government can do, it is gonna be super cheap! Thumbprint technology is like, ya know, over here, most companies are using it for check in and check out of work, for employees, and employees access to office. It's like such a common thing now for everybody that it is not something unaffordable anymore. Might even save government money on printing paper every year to mail out to people. Now they just need to email blast or sms blast, whatever, TV announcement, social media announcement, when voting day is. Anybody can just turn up, thumb print verification, and vote. I say it saves the trees and it saves money.

JeffBC -> RE: Voter laws (7/31/2016 8:51:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or that equipment is not cheap. With the kind of mass purchase the US government can do, it is gonna be super cheap! Thumbprint technology is like, ya know, over here, most companies are using it for check in and check out of work, for employees, and employees access to office. It's like such a common thing now for everybody that it is not something unaffordable anymore. Might even save government money on printing paper every year to mail out to people. Now they just need to email blast or sms blast, whatever, TV announcement, social media announcement, when voting day is. Anybody can just turn up, thumb print verification, and vote. I say it saves the trees and it saves money. Biometrics are not as secure as people think but it might work for an election. But overall, you are correct. There would be lots and lots of ways to mitigate the problem of disenfranchisement. How fascinating that those ways are not ever a part of these laws. Nowadays though, we don't bother with changing registration rules. We just hack the systems and change people's registration for them so they can't vote. We also update vote totals in the electronic voting systems however we want to. I suspect this form of voter suppression is going to be a dinosaur pretty soon.

Greta75 -> RE: Voter laws (7/31/2016 8:56:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC We just hack the systems and change people's registration for them so they can't vote. We also update vote totals in the electronic voting systems however we want to. I suspect this form of voter suppression is going to be a dinosaur pretty soon. Hacking is a modern problem where we store paperless data, so the solution is to pump up cyber security. Despite the fear of hacking, I don't know if this is happening all your countries. My country is going completely cashless. Your handphone is now, your credit card, your public transportation card, your bank withdrawal card, and also your cash. Any membership cards are now an application you just need to download. Your handphone is now your entire wallet. We do not need anything but our handphone to function in Singapore. Payments just tap our handphones on the machines, and it's sorted, and you can choose which credit card you want that money to come out from, or which bank account. Public transportation payment, just tap our handphones on machines too. It's all paperless now. Most people loses ID, but nowadays losing your cellphone could be worst than losing your wallet, so many precious memories and photos in there! Cellphone can be a form of identification in the future too. All in one! And most people, especially new generation, really treasure and keep their handphone close at all times, so ya know, that's the future of ID.

JeffBC -> RE: Voter laws (7/31/2016 9:08:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 Hacking is a modern problem where we store paperless data, so the solution is to pump up cyber security... That would be the obvious solution. But here in America we don't do that either. We deploy easily hackable voting machines with insecure tallying infrastructures and so the systems are not trustworthy. I'm just trying to provide background. I could see how these things would seem like "not a problem" to someone from a sane country. There are in fact obvious answers to the United States' election problems. Our leaders don't want those problems solved so you get discussions like this thread. What you're really seeing in this thread has nothing to do with ensuring the integrity and fairness of US elections. What you're reading (from the Americans anyway) is purely partisan bullshit. The way you know that is they only complain when the other party does it.

BamaD -> RE: Voter laws (7/31/2016 9:32:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Why do you think it's such a bad idea to make those that voters are actually legally allowed to vote? It's not requiring an ID to vote that is the problem. The problem goes something like this. Citizen is entitled to his or her vote. Government changes rules and says now you must have an ID to vote Government does not take it upon itself to ensure those ID's are readily available.... in fact makes them very difficult to obtain in some cases. Citizen is disenfranchised. Although, as always, the evidence for voter fraud is damned thin on the ground. Election fraud on the other hand, is happening right in front of our eyes and nobody cares. This actually IS a problem and it is a big enough problem to change the outcomes at all levels of the political structure. Nobody cares. Here they require ID and make it very easy to get one.

BamaD -> RE: Voter laws (7/31/2016 9:36:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: markyugen Do you pro-voter ID people even TRY to educate yourselves as to why it is such a pernicious idea? Or do you prefer to bury your head in the sand and let yourself be scammed because your side just "coincidentally" happens to be the one that benefits from minorities, poor people, students and other supposedly liberal-leaning groups being denied their constitutional right to vote? Google Vote ID as I did, and you come up with a plethora of sites that will tell you why these laws should be abolished. At least then you can claim mendacity and not stupidity as the reason why you take the position you do. How is it that minorities and poor people can't get an ID that allows them to vote? Just because a student ID isn't an allowable form of ID doesn't really mean that student can't vote. Plus, if they're not at their assigned polling place, they will only be able to use a provisional ballot as it is. If they are out-of-town college students, they wouldn't be able to vote there anyway. The mail-in ballot is quite useful in that case, isn't it? That brings up a very interesting point. If you are in your 20s and away at college, where do you vote ? Not just federal elections but I mean like for mayor or whatever, and issues. Should you vote by mail in your hometown thousand miles away or should you be voting for these things where you live now ? You live in the dorm, don't have a house or car and plan on going home as soon as you graduate. Should you have a say in a community you plan on leaving in a year or two, as soon as you are done ? Fuck, I just had a horrible thought - base it on your cellphone area code LOL. Take it to the federal level. Let's say you are in college in a state that is so red that your vote will not make a difference, but you are from a swing state where the margin is much closer. Vote by proxy at home ? Or throw your vote away where you just happen to be ? And if you plan on leaving, you really should not be voting on local issues like property tax levies and all that shit. A big fucking mess is what it is. T^T You vote where you are registered to vote. Registering in one place automatically cancles your registration everywhere else. If you don't establish residence you vote absentee where you where registered before.

Termyn8or -> RE: Voter laws (7/31/2016 9:37:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or "If they are elderly, possibly not. Lost long ago. Homeless? Nope. " If you are homeless you can't even register to vote. I wonder how the bleeding heart liberal plan to fix that. Oh, I forgot, they do not plan. T^T depends where you are. In Canada if you are homeless, you can register to vote. Some bleeding hearts are more organized than others. Aso you can vote if you are incarcerated. OK, how does a homeless person register to vote ? Things I have proposed for that are like the thumbprint idea, and actually if you have an address where you can receive mail you get a registration ticket or something which you turn in at the polls. Would work. There are ways. In the US, convicted felons are prohibited from voting in some places which I believe is wrong. However, while incarcerated, the idea is you do not have your rights so I would not support voting rights for those currently incarcerated. But then we almost had a couple of people run for office while incarcerated, LaRouche and Trafficant almost did it. Problen for the PTB though is that oif LaRouche had won he could pardon himself. Trafficant would have had to legislate from a prison cell. But that might be possible. Take the case of Michael Rodent. I don't recall the guy's actual name but before the computer got too big for this to happen, he screwed the IRS out of hundreds of thousands. He would just get a bunch of W-2 forms and type out whatever on them and file a tax return and get a refund. Back then it was alot easier to cash a check. They eventually caught up to him and threw him in prison of course. However, in prison he started doing it again. Ordered the forms and filled them out and got checks. So he is again charged with the same thing and in court his lawyer says "You should just let him out because you obviously aren't rehabilitating him". Now that's chutzpa. I'd like to meet that guy. But now tell me, those homeless and incarcerated who can vote, they have ID correct ? They can prove they are citizens correct, or there is evidence to that effect, correct ? What if an illegal alien is incarcerated, can he vote ? Betcha not. T^T

Lucylastic -> RE: Voter laws (7/31/2016 9:43:09 PM)
you can only vote if you are a citizen... so no. immigrants, permanent residents, refugees cannot vote until they go thru the citizenship procedure. To vote in a Canadian federal election you must be: A Canadian citizen (Temporary and permanent residents cannot vote); 18 years old or older on election day; Residents in the electoral district; and Registered on the Voters List (also called the list of electors). http://settlement.org/ontario/immigration-citizenship/canadian-government/voting/a-guide-to-voting-in-the-canadian-federal-election/ http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=faq&document=faqvoting&lang=e http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=faq&document=faqvoting&lang=e#a4 http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e

JeffBC -> RE: Voter laws (7/31/2016 10:26:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Here they require ID and make it very easy to get one. nod As I was reading about the ACLU lawsuit I remembered the conversation you and I had. Has that thing finished yet? In either case my point remains. The state has an obligation to ensure people's rights are protected.... especially voting rights since those sit at the very heart of democracy itself. I'm cool with any sort of ID law which actually does that. This year though the Democrats have Republicans utterly waxes on election fraud. Your team needs to pick up their game.

BamaD -> RE: Voter laws (7/31/2016 10:41:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Here they require ID and make it very easy to get one. nod As I was reading about the ACLU lawsuit I remembered the conversation you and I had. Has that thing finished yet? In either case my point remains. The state has an obligation to ensure people's rights are protected.... especially voting rights since those sit at the very heart of democracy itself. I'm cool with any sort of ID law which actually does that. This year though the Democrats have Republicans utterly waxes on election fraud. Your team needs to pick up their game. I agree with the statement earlier that electronic voting is the easyest path to election fraud. One hacker can change everything. How many reports have we heard of people voting for one person and seeing it go to the other party.

Greta75 -> RE: Voter laws (7/31/2016 10:58:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD I agree with the statement earlier that electronic voting is the easyest path to election fraud. One hacker can change everything. How many reports have we heard of people voting for one person and seeing it go to the other party. Voter fraud happens even with paper elections. Basically there is no fool proof method. So the key is to improve security features. And hacking is not so easy. I know somehow Clinton campaign keeps getting hacked like nothing recently makes it seem like hacking is a piece of cake for anybody to do it. But with proper cyber security, hacking is not gonna be a normal thing, and also, you can always detect intrusion, then all votes can be voided and re-voted. End of the day, I am sure votes were tabulated electronically and not physically, as they record down the results of the votes.

JeffBC -> RE: Voter laws (7/31/2016 11:11:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 Voter fraud happens even with paper elections. Basically there is no fool proof method. We are not discussing voter fraud in this case. We are discussing election fraud. That is to say, "When the government itself cheats". Those are very different problems in scale, severity, and ways to resolve. What we are discussing is both major parties in our own government working to subvert democracy. From an information security standpoint, paper ballots (or the system they are used in) is inherently much more secure than electronic. When we do paper elections, each tiny little precinct counts those paper ballots and rolls those totals up the chain. So sure, you can subvert one precinct and get away with it if you're lucky. Two precincts starts to become very unlikely. An entire state is simply out of the question. What "secures" paper is the very unwieldiness of the system. Electronic voting machines, however, provide for a convenient single point of attack and are hardly secured at all. If you can penetrate the system then you can modify every single vote tallied in that system.... often times that means across multiple states. quote: And hacking is not so easy. I know somehow Clinton campaign keeps getting hacked like nothing recently makes it seem like hacking is a piece of cake for anybody to do it. But with proper cyber security, hacking is not gonna be a normal thing, and also, you can always detect intrusion, then all votes can be voided and re-voted. It's way more complicated than that. For starters, "hacking" involves social hacking as well as electronic hacking. Consider me breaking into corporate data centers simply by getting a big empty box as if I was carrying new equipment into the secured facility and then waiting for someone to come by to "help me open the door". But the important thing to remember in this case is that these machines are DESIGNED to be hacked because that's the way our two parties want them to be. That's why you hear us cringing at electronic voting.

BamaD -> RE: Voter laws (7/31/2016 11:14:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD I agree with the statement earlier that electronic voting is the easyest path to election fraud. One hacker can change everything. How many reports have we heard of people voting for one person and seeing it go to the other party. Voter fraud happens even with paper elections. Basically there is no fool proof method. So the key is to improve security features. And hacking is not so easy. I know somehow Clinton campaign keeps getting hacked like nothing recently makes it seem like hacking is a piece of cake for anybody to do it. But with proper cyber security, hacking is not gonna be a normal thing, and also, you can always detect intrusion, then all votes can be voided and re-voted. End of the day, I am sure votes were tabulated electronically and not physically, as they record down the results of the votes. Yes fraud can happen regardless of the system but it is easier and more devestating with computors, also you don't need as many people to do the damage. One crooked poller can change one precenct. One hacker can change the whole state. We had an election in 08 where one person narrowly lost a senate race, once the votes were tallied and totals were givin a ballot box was "found" in the trunk of a polling officials car with just enough votes to change the outcome. Of course the benificary was a Democrat so the story died almost instantly.

JeffBC -> RE: Voter laws (7/31/2016 11:20:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Of course the benificary was a Democrat so the story died almost instantly. Funny thing that. It seems no matter who the beneficiary is these stories die almost instantly. The Republicans pulled of some pretty nasty shit in ?Ohio?. I think it was 2004 and an attempt again in 2008. As I've said consistently, this isn't a D/R problem since both parties like the system the way it is.

BamaD -> RE: Voter laws (7/31/2016 11:23:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Of course the benificary was a Democrat so the story died almost instantly. Funny thing that. It seems no matter who the beneficiary is these stories die almost instantly. The Republicans pulled of some pretty nasty shit in ?Ohio?. I think it was 2004 and an attempt again in 2008. As I've said consistently, this isn't a D/R problem since both parties like the system the way it is. Doesn't matter who does it, it is wrong.

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