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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/4/2016 4:49:07 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
Men who don't know how to take no for an answer, fail to read body language, or miss social cues are labeled creeps.

Unless they study at Stanford, in which case their victim is called a lying bitch who's out to spoil their promising future by complaining that they gave her something she was asking for by dressing like that and getting drunk...

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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/4/2016 9:34:07 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes


quote:

ORIGINAL: respectmen


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
used
Actually, it is probably better to be a slut, cunt and a whore than a cheapskate and a loser.

T^T

Well, it is interesting that slut, cunt, and whore are pejorative terms used to designate sexually promiscuous women, so of course they are probably "better" terms for the male libido. Great!

Whereas cheapskate and loser are male oriented slurs that suggest a loss of masculine power. Erm, not so great.

In my opinion, your narrative supports and justifies the feminist argument.

vML


Just a quicky as I'm in my phone

A man acting sexually promiscuous is usually labelled a creep. I would prefer to be labelled a slut or whore anyday rather than being labelled a creep.

Sometimes it can be validated to label a man a creep but I think its way more misused than it is to be used appropriately. Women randomly think men are creepy simply because they appear sexual and the said man is not their type. A desirable man acting the same is not in the minds of the same women.

Creep shaming is more common and more harsh than slut shaming by a long shot.

Its considered misogyny to label women sluts or whores but (waves a magic wand) it's not misandry to randomly label men as creeps.



Sexually promiscuous men are not labeled creeps. Men who don't know how to take no for an answer, fail to read body language, or miss social cues are labeled creeps.

I have never heard that sexually promiscuous males are called creeps. That is certainly not common in the US. Commonly they are called studs. Creeps are socially inept males. Rman doesn't understand that language is gender loaded. That is why he does not understand feminism and flails about on these boards displaying his ignorance (of the topic)

vML

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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/4/2016 9:51:55 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

A fundamentally sexist and biased proposition which seeks to gain advantages for women at the expense of men.


equality is not a synonym for advantages
That's not advocacy for equality. It's advocacy for special privileges.


< Message edited by Awareness -- 8/4/2016 9:52:28 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/4/2016 12:07:19 PM   
NookieNotes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

A fundamentally sexist and biased proposition which seeks to gain advantages for women at the expense of men.


equality is not a synonym for advantages
That's not advocacy for equality. It's advocacy for special privileges.



You interpret language very different than I have been taught to—adding in unwritten assumptions and whole new words.

*shrugs*

You do you, Boo Boo.

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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/4/2016 3:33:31 PM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
You interpret language very different than I have been taught to—adding in unwritten assumptions and whole new words.

*shrugs*

You do you, Boo Boo.
This is not about language, it's about thinking. You do remember thinking, right?

Now, since you've failed to work this out on your own, I'm forced to lead you through this exercise. Consider the following sentence.

"Rights and ______ are two sides of the same coin".

Fill in the missing word.


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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/4/2016 4:31:18 PM   
longwayhome


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

A fundamentally sexist and biased proposition which seeks to gain advantages for women at the expense of men.


equality is not a synonym for advantages
That's not advocacy for equality. It's advocacy for special privileges.



Oh dear.

You don't seem to be able to deal with the concept of equality in terms of rights, opportunities, pay and respect.

Some women are more submissive and others more dominant but all human beings should have equality of respect and opportunity whatever path they choose in their lives.

You seem to assume plenty of special privileges for yourself as a man and then decry women who want the same as being unnatural or involved in some unfair conspiracy. If women (or men for that matter) who believe in equality do not appreciate your world view that is no surprise, but that in itself does not constitute some crime against nature. Someone threatening your world view is not advocating for special privileges, especially if they just see themselves as having as much right as you to any of the opportunities you enjoy. It's not much to ask - or at least it shouldn't be.

As a man I am enriched by equality, not impoverished. Rather than being restricted by people wanting to break free from traditional gender roles, I am liberated. I am not threatened either by equality or by strong women because I am secure in myself, and I certainly do not need to imagine that every women is subservient to me (or worse that every woman deep down wants to be subservient).

If women really want to be as subservient as you imagine, why do you need to dedicate so much text to opposing the concept of equality?

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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/4/2016 4:36:59 PM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
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Status: offline 		As for the whole paying for meals controversy, I have paid for meals, split the costs and had meals paid for. Sometimes that's partly been on ability to pay, sometimes not. If anyone wants to be hidebound by social convention and make assumptions that is their concern. I'm happy to pay my way, take turns or support someone else, but also happy to go with the flow. I guess I don't do strict dating conventions. Life's too short.

As for opening doors - I do it for everyone. Not because I am a man, but because I am a civilised human being who is courteous and has manners.

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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/4/2016 5:36:10 PM   
epiphiny43


Posts: 688
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Status: offline 		Same losers who have their panties in a wad because some people with vaginas are smarter, more educated, more aggressive and simply Better at what they do. They Have to be in order to break through the multi-level conventions and cultural assumptions men are better. We now know women are inherently better at a number of tasks, and are working on those they aren't. Anything involving actual compromise among competing needs or groups is one few men can compete at. They just aren't used to Listening to the other side.
Cultural forces during development are crucial: Women test better at STEM at every youth level. But fail at Calculus 1 level, mostly from self-doubt, a culturally transmitted lack of confidence. Now understood to be where females drop off the STEM career path and men predominate. Work is in progress to change both instructors attitudes and practices, and work on the material girls are exposed to short of that level.

Who pays for dinner? The more horny one, or the less effectively manipulative one. We all know men generally are largely fails as socially insightful manipulators in unobvious ways. If power tools, weapons or serious force is involved, they're good. The exceptions prove the rule, highly successful male predators in resort areas everywhere get more pussy (and their money) than most men even talk to. And Never pay for dinner, no matter what was offered earlier. Watching the Beach Boys work in Waikiki is like marveling at circus acrobats, true artists at what they do. Some of these haven't had their own room to sleep in for years. If the weather really shuts down access to the prey population, they might have to crash on a friend's couch. The pick up artists in Rome and other major Italian cities are at least as accomplished.

< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 8/4/2016 5:38:21 PM >

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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/4/2016 6:43:54 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome
As for opening doors - I do it for everyone. Not because I am a man, but because I am a civilised human being who is courteous and has manners.

I'm a woman and I like opening doors for everyone too! Men/Women, even if I am on a date! Like usually we are in a cab, because we are out for dinner and drinking and he can't drive.
So while he pays, I would walk out first, and then open the cab door on his end for him to get out and then close it.

His paying, I can open doors for him!

Whenever I am with a group of friends, I always rush to hold the door open for everybody, and then jokingly put out a hand, asking for tips haha. Sometimes, I could be the only woman and 7 men. Actually, most of my friends are men, so that is quite a common ratio even in group outings. My leisure group trip to Malaysia with friends end of the mth, my friend is commenting again, 8 men and one woman, me! Haha! We gonna hang out the whole weekend together. And I planned the trip. Kinda like my reverse harem. And ya can be sure I am gonna be opening doors for all of them! But usually at least one will feel bad and tell me to move on, and he'll take over holding the door.

Ya know, when ya have bad relationships with moms, ya tend to get along with males better than females.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 8/4/2016 6:52:35 PM >

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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/5/2016 2:20:15 AM   
NookieNotes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness


quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
You interpret language very different than I have been taught to—adding in unwritten assumptions and whole new words.

*shrugs*

You do you, Boo Boo.
This is not about language, it's about thinking. You do remember thinking, right?

Now, since you've failed to work this out on your own, I'm forced to lead you through this exercise. Consider the following sentence.

"Rights and ______ are two sides of the same coin".

Fill in the missing word.



Here's the funny thing about language. How we use it shapes out thinking.

Didja know that? Huh huh? So, the point I'm making id that your thinking is flawed. Your logic is terribly flawed. But that's cool. Let's go over this again.

Everyone but you uses similar words (with very specific means (No, really, you can look them all up n'shit!) to define feminism.

You choose to assume words in your definition that are not causal. You choose the no true Scotsman route on the regular. You use anecdotes. And frankly, you just keep talking, figuring you'll make your point by being louder than anyone else.

You are wrong when you say, "Feminists... [insert anything in here that is not in those definitions]"

You would be right to say, "The feminists I have met who have identified as feminists to me... [insert anything in here that is not in those definitions]"

Which is why your thought exercise doesn't matter. It's arguing an unrelated topic.


quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

Cultural forces during development are crucial: Women test better at STEM at every youth level. But fail at Calculus 1 level, mostly from self-doubt, a culturally transmitted lack of confidence. Now understood to be where females drop off the STEM career path and men predominate. Work is in progress to change both instructors attitudes and practices, and work on the material girls are exposed to short of that level.


I doubt this will work overmuch. Women often fall of the STEM career path when hormones kick in. It's not a coincidence.

Our brains change.

AND THAT'S OK. It's WHY we are better at "Anything involving actual compromise among competing needs or groups," for example. Our brains change.

NOT ALL. Many/most.

quote:

Who pays for dinner? The more horny one, or the less effectively manipulative one.


It's more complex than that.

  • Who is more interested?
  • Who has more money?
  • Who wants to show that they have the money?
  • Who asks?
  • Who negotiates better?
  • What is the interest when the check comes?
  • Who thinks that paying for dinner will get them sex?

    Just a few of the concerns.

    quote:

    The exceptions prove the rule,


    The exceptions proof the rule. In other words, the correct phrase is that the exceptions test the rule.

    Because it's not a rule, it's a generality. Using it as such is perfectly valid, and you did, so you can fix that very very common misuse.

    *smiles*

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    • Profile   Post #: 130
    RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/5/2016 7:27:43 AM   
    angelikaJ


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Awareness

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Awareness
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
    the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

    A fundamentally sexist and biased proposition which seeks to gain advantages for women at the expense of men.


    equality is not a synonym for advantages

    quote:

    That's not advocacy for equality. It's advocacy for special privileges.




    It isn't, but perhaps it should be:
    “Whenever women have insisted on absolute equality with men, they have invariably wound up with the dirty end of the stick. What they are and what they can do makes them superior to men, and their proper tactic is to demand special privileges, all the traffic will bear. They should never settle merely for equality. For women, "equality" is a disaster.” Robert A. Heinlein


    < Message edited by angelikaJ -- 8/5/2016 7:40:19 AM >

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    RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/5/2016 9:02:06 AM   
    Awareness


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Awareness
    This is not about language, it's about thinking. You do remember thinking, right?

    Now, since you've failed to work this out on your own, I'm forced to lead you through this exercise. Consider the following sentence.

    "Rights and ______ are two sides of the same coin".

    Fill in the missing word.

    quote:


    Here's the funny thing about language. How we use it shapes out thinking.
    That's a child's perception of a complex phenomenon. Words possess no intrinsic meaning, their meaning is defined by the communities which use them. That is, a word is a codified representation of an idea which is achieved by consensus. The availability of vocabulary determines our ability to express ourselves. Those with a greater vocabulary can generally encompass more complex ideas and do so with greater degrees of nuance. That does not "shape our thinking" as you put it. Our thinking is shaped by how we interpret external stimuli to build our understanding - our 'model' if you will - of the world.

    Our model of the world is what we use to predict the future. The value of any model is its ability to do so. For instance, I can confidently predict that if you put ten feminists in a room, they will inevitably end up talking about how men suck.

    quote:

    Didja know that? Huh huh?
    Oh please, woman. You're a babe in the woods.

    quote:

    So, the point I'm making id that your thinking is flawed. Your logic is terribly flawed. But that's cool. Let's go over this again.
    *sigh* Honestly, this becomes tedious. Saying my thinking is flawed is useless. If you want to make that claim you have to DEMONSTRATE how and why. You have to point out the specific fallacies or weaknesses in my argument. Saying my logic is flawed without demonstrating why is just intellectual masturbation on your part.

    quote:


    Everyone but you uses similar words
    I make no apologies for having a vocabulary. Jealousy is childish.

    quote:

    (with very specific means (No, really, you can look them all up n'shit!) to define feminism.
    "Very specific means?" - Look if English is your second language, I'll give you a pass, otherwise your grammar is fucking terrible.

    quote:

    You choose to assume words in your definition that are not causal. You choose the no true Scotsman route on the regular. You use anecdotes.
    Look, you're clearly not paying attention here - you just described Peon who I've called out for his No True Scotsman fallacy time and time gain. And while I find his anecdotal prissy little mean girls anecdotes amusing ("I know important men and they're much better than you!!!!") you accusing me of doing the same is just sheer stupidity. I don't, because I don't need to - I'm working in the realm of logic and reason here.

    quote:

    And frankly, you just keep talking, figuring you'll make your point by being louder than anyone else.
    Congratulations on defining the mechanism of feminism's engagement with its opponents.

    quote:

    You are wrong when you say, "Feminists... [insert anything in here that is not in those definitions]"
    Your contention that feminists rigidly adhere to a mythical definition of feminism is so ludicrously stupid, I have to wonder if you took your clever pills today. You - along with Peon - seem to think that feminists adhere to some mythical gold standard and that anyone who doesn't - any feminists who violates those precepts which you think are set in stone - gets unceremoniously kicked out of the feminist fold. That's not the way it works and under no circumstances do feminists even remotely adhere to this archetype they're promoting.

    You're not even beginning to make sense.

    quote:

    You would be right to say, "The feminists I have met who have identified as feminists to me... [insert anything in here that is not in those definitions]"
    No. You're just plain wrong. And badly wrong. You can see feminist advocacy in the social and legislative spheres which directly contradicts feminism's claims of desiring "equality". You can perceive the ongoing narrative in the realm of public discourse in which feminists demonise men, assert utter nonsense in their ongoing quest for female privilege (the gender wage gap is one example - it's a myth which has been debunked time and time again), and continue to promote a false narrative in defiance of clear evidence to the contrary.

    Why are feminists so afraid of genuine equality?

    quote:


    Which is why your thought exercise doesn't matter. It's arguing an unrelated topic.
    I'm afraid you're too ludicrously incompetent to make any kind of judgement call. Like all feminists you avoid the evidence and assert religious belief. I'm afraid you're just like any other religious fanatic.

    Now. Once again. See if you can fill in the missing word. Anyone who was actually taught to be a functioning adult should be able to do this little exercise in their sleep.

    "Rights and ______ are two sides of the same coin".

    Fill in the missing word.

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    RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/5/2016 10:07:51 AM   
    PeonForHer


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    quote:

    he gender wage gap is one example - it's a myth which has been debunked time and time again


    Oh shut up, Awareness. You know that's not true. It's been *contested* time and time again. It has not been 'debunked' time and time again. How can you even say that and hope to get away with it? One need only google the phrase 'Is there a gender wage gap?' to find this out.

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    RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/5/2016 10:26:34 AM   
    PeonForHer


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    quote:

    Look, you're clearly not paying attention here - you just described Peon who I've called out for his No True Scotsman fallacy time and time gain. And while I find his anecdotal prissy little mean girls anecdotes amusing ("I know important men and they're much better than you!!!!") you accusing me of doing the same is just sheer stupidity. I don't, because I don't need to - I'm working in the realm of logic and reason here.


    I'd begun to stop scanning over your verbiage - because the ratio of pomposity to thought had become too great - and then this popped up!

    Gawd, A. Yes, you've invoked the 'One True Scotsman' line a few times - and I've rubbished it. This is because you warp it - I suspect, because you don't quite understand it. I have said, time and again, that someone does *not* hold to the principle of equality between the genders, then he/she is not a feminist. I have said this because it is the one common thread in the whole body of thought. This means that: yes, you may call someone, *even a woman*, a non-feminist if he/she does not hold to that principle.

    Your second option is to redefine 'feminism' in a way that makes sense. This is an option that you never, ever, take. The best you've ever done is echo respectmen with his view - steeped in that illogic that you claim to shun - that 'feminism is what feminists do'. Neither you nor RM has ever answered the question, 'Right - so how do you recognise a feminist, in order to, next, judge what he/she does?'

    Strewth, A. It honestly flabbergasts me how you can adopt *such* a confident tone, on the back of such a paucity of knowledge and balance. I've only been able to manage that on certain leisure drugs, in the past.

    < Message edited by PeonForHer -- 8/5/2016 10:28:12 AM >

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    Profile   Post #: 134
    RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/5/2016 10:36:02 AM   
    Cinnamongirl67


    Posts: 854
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Greta75

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: longwayhome
    As for opening doors - I do it for everyone. Not because I am a man, but because I am a civilised human being who is courteous and has manners.

    I'm a woman and I like opening doors for everyone too! Men/Women, even if I am on a date! Like usually we are in a cab, because we are out for dinner and drinking and he can't drive.
    So while he pays, I would walk out first, and then open the cab door on his end for him to get out and then close it.

    His paying, I can open doors for him!

    Whenever I am with a group of friends, I always rush to hold the door open for everybody, and then jokingly put out a hand, asking for tips haha. Sometimes, I could be the only woman and 7 men. Actually, most of my friends are men, so that is quite a common ratio even in group outings. My leisure group trip to Malaysia with friends end of the mth, my friend is commenting again, 8 men and one woman, me! Haha! We gonna hang out the whole weekend together. And I planned the trip. Kinda like my reverse harem. And ya can be sure I am gonna be opening doors for all of them! But usually at least one will feel bad and tell me to move on, and he'll take over holding the door.

    Ya know, when ya have bad relationships with moms, ya tend to get along with males better than females.


    I open doors for people especially the elderly and women with kids, guys even if they are carrying boxes etc. But if a guy and I get to the door at the same time if they don't open if for me I do a lil head nod toward the door with a smile. Usually works.

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    Profile   Post #: 135
    RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/6/2016 3:29:22 AM   
    NookieNotes


    Posts: 1720
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Awareness


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
    Here's the funny thing about language. How we use it shapes out thinking.


    That's a child's perception of a complex phenomenon. Words possess no intrinsic meaning, their meaning is defined by the communities which use them. That is, a word is a codified representation of an idea which is achieved by consensus. The availability of vocabulary determines our ability to express ourselves. Those with a greater vocabulary can generally encompass more complex ideas and do so with greater degrees of nuance. That does not "shape our thinking" as you put it. Our thinking is shaped by how we interpret external stimuli to build our understanding - our 'model' if you will - of the world.


    Ok. You know everything. I'd suggest you do a bit more research into how the language we have available to us shapes our brain, not only in "more complex ideas," as you suggest, but in how we think about those ideas.

    Or not. Continue to show you have exactly zero clue about what I meant.

    quote:

    quote:

    Everyone but you uses similar words
    I make no apologies for having a vocabulary. Jealousy is childish.


    Way to completely sidestep the point. Huzzah for deliberate misdirection!

    quote:

    quote:

    And frankly, you just keep talking, figuring you'll make your point by being louder than anyone else.
    Congratulations on defining the mechanism of feminism's engagement with its opponents.


    "But they hit me first!"

    And you call me childish.

    quote:

    Your contention that feminists rigidly adhere to a mythical definition of feminism is so ludicrously stupid, I have to wonder if you took your clever pills today.


    Actually, that is exactly the point that you have been making when you say "all" feminists. My point is that by definition, only those who adhere to those principles are feminists.

    Just as there are many different varieties of people who call themselves Christian. All they have to do is believe Jesus Christ is the messiah. How they interpret the rest is what provides variety, but none of that defines Christianity.

    quote:

    You - along with Peon - seem to think that feminists adhere to some mythical gold standard and that anyone who doesn't - any feminists who violates those precepts which you think are set in stone - gets unceremoniously kicked out of the feminist fold.


    No, they don't get kicked out. You can believe what has been defined and also hate men.

    I'm saying that hating men (and sand in the vagina) is not feminism. And you trying to make it so by saying it does over and over doesn't work.

    That's not the way it works and under no circumstances do feminists even remotely adhere to this archetype they're promoting.

    quote:

    Why are feminists so afraid of genuine equality?
    quote:



    Why are some feminists so afraid of genuine equality?

    Fixed it. No. Here:

    Why are some people so afraid of genuine equality?

    But I can see you are too wrapped up in your invested viewpoint to be worth engaging further on this topic. I've made my points, and I'm happy with them.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

    I have said, time and again, that someone does *not* hold to the principle of equality between the genders, then he/she is not a feminist. I have said this because it is the one common thread in the whole body of thought. This means that: yes, you may call someone, *even a woman*, a non-feminist if he/she does not hold to that principle.


    Because words have meaning.

    And shockingly, some people use the term feminism the way others use the word "Christianity," to give themselves and their idea more weight. Some people say they make $100k or more on dating sites, too. Saying it does not make it real, nor does it make them anymore part of that group than if they didn't say it.

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    RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/6/2016 5:44:02 AM   
    blnymph


    Posts: 1598
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: longwayhome

    ...
    As for opening doors - I do it for everyone. Not because I am a man, but because I am a civilised human being who is courteous and has manners.



    This thing about "manners" is a most interesting and relevant concept so many are obviously completely unfamiliar with.


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    Profile   Post #: 137
    RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/6/2016 6:27:48 AM   
    ThatDizzyChick


    Posts: 5490
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    If a guy asks me out on a date then he should pay for the date, if I ask a guy out on a date then I should pay for the date.

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    Profile   Post #: 138
    RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/6/2016 6:36:04 AM   
    Greta75


    Posts: 9968
    Joined: 2/6/2011
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

    FR
    If a guy asks me out on a date then he should pay for the date, if I ask a guy out on a date then I should pay for the date.


    Can't argue with that! I also agree that if I ask a man out, I will pay. I mean, end of the day, whenever I ask a man out, I always say, "Hey, my treat!" Like within the asking, I will mention upfront, the meal is on me. Lots of woman here practice that.
    Very rarely do they ask a man out and expect him to pay, hell I don't think I personally know any woman who expects that.

    < Message edited by Greta75 -- 8/6/2016 6:37:36 AM >

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    Profile   Post #: 139
    RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/6/2016 7:06:33 AM   
    Cinnamongirl67


    Posts: 854
    Status: offline     		I never asked a man out in my life.
    I did however, make known to my now husbands friend if he asked I would go out with him. First date, was a super bowl party, very casual. I don't think other then hello I really spoke to anyone that night other then my husband. Next date, he took me to the most expensive place in town to eat. Things back then were a little different though. It's not something that was even talked about, it wAs just a socially expected norm where I am from. Kind of like the back drop of what you could expect in the future. Don't get me wrong here, I worked my ass off for many years to help get us to a comfortable life.

    < Message edited by Cinnamongirl67 -- 8/6/2016 7:07:10 AM >

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