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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/6/2016 6:53:26 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

One of the most crap feelings of my life, turning down a woman for a date. Truly bloody hideous and absolutely miserable.



I'd like to think that anyone with some semblance of empathy would feel at least a little something for someone who put themselves out there like that, man or woman. I still remember the very first time a boy asked me to dance. My response was so very...unpolished. I was much too blunt. I feel badly to this day for knocking that poor kid down. Little did he know that I was just surprised, and had no idea how to respond. Anyway, even though I eventually grew out of being surprised when a man showed interested in me, I believe I always took care to keep their feelings in mind. It's strange to me that you find the idea of turning a woman down to be hideous and miserable. It's really no biggie. As long as you're not a prick about it. The worst thing to do, in my opinion, is exactly what was suggested somewhere else on this thread - to make up a joke or sidestep the question. Just say "Wow, I am so flattered that you've asked me. Really. But I honestly just don't see us as being a good fit." The mistake men make is that they think a woman can't handle it, so they make up an excuse to try to avoid feeling a little bit badly for a few minutes. That is what gets under my skin. Not a rejection, but a rejection that's softened lest our delicate selves whither to pieces because of it.

(Disclaimer - this actually hasn't happened to me. I mean, I've been rejected, sure. For example, I remember a certain State Trooper that I decided was worth a now or never moment some years ago. I fell flat on my face with that one, LOL. But, he was nice and genuine about it. No - this is just what I have heard time and again from men - that women can't handle rejection. I strongly disagree. I think it's men who can't handle rejecting us. Which, ...sigh, I suppose, is exactly what you just said.)

quote:



I used to bellyache about how women should do the asking, to make things equal .... I don't, now. It feels fucking awful to turn a woman down and I still have *no* idea how to do it well. (Not that it happens every day, mind you - far from it ... but I'll avoid getting into the sort of situation where it might arise like the plague, these days.)

IMO: a woman dominating a man in the sack - easy enough. A woman whacking a bloke up his jacksie with a strap-on - bit of a thing to get your head around, but still doable. I'd venture to suggest that physical acts aren't that important for the average male.

But matters to do with etiquette - much more of a struggle. A *woman* asking *a man* out - still way beyond any role-reversal challenge than any of the aforementioned, for me. Funny, really.


No comment, because my head might explode.

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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/6/2016 7:32:12 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Often if a woman makes the first move, many men will feel, they don't have to work as hard to get her.

Well duh, she has already made her interest clear


A smile only indicates I am friendly, duh, it's hardly the same as making the first move/or asking someone out.



< Message edited by Marini -- 8/6/2016 8:01:32 PM >


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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/6/2016 7:47:43 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

As for the whole paying for meals controversy, I have paid for meals, split the costs and had meals paid for. Sometimes that's partly been on ability to pay, sometimes not. If anyone wants to be hidebound by social convention and make assumptions that is their concern. I'm happy to pay my way, take turns or support someone else, but also happy to go with the flow. I guess I don't do strict dating conventions. Life's too short.

As for opening doors - I do it for everyone. Not because I am a man, but because I am a civilised human being who is courteous and has manners.



When I am dating, I have no problem paying for dates.
I might even give you special treats.
:)

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

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Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/6/2016 8:56:04 PM   
Lucylastic


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Its been almost 31 years since my last "date".....and that was a blind date and I paid for my own drinks all evening.
Im not sure I could be arsed to date as a hobby ever again.

I know exactly what I dont want, and that would cut an awful lot of men out, much more so than when I was 22. Not looks wise, but certainly attitude wise, personality wise.
Its what the person puts IN to the relationship, not their bank balance that matters.
Money has never impressed me, we need it, all of us. Wanting to have some kind of security isnt a bad thing. Using someone for money in pretense of caring and love to me is wrong. but that happens to both sides.

Money crops up for both sides in marriage too, and is often the cause of arguments.
I would be fine going dutch, but the reasoning behind it would be more telling in the long run.
If he had little money, no issue, Ive eaten at mcdonalds on a date...it didnt go well but he was abusive, not cheap
No job? shouldnt have asked me out to a restaurant, BUT Im quite happy to make some sarnies, a cooler of beer/soda, and head to a park
You dont think you SHOULD pay? because .... feminsim / sexism .
You wouldnt even get a look in.
but thats just me:)



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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/7/2016 2:30:12 AM   
longwayhome


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini


quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

As for the whole paying for meals controversy, I have paid for meals, split the costs and had meals paid for. Sometimes that's partly been on ability to pay, sometimes not. If anyone wants to be hidebound by social convention and make assumptions that is their concern. I'm happy to pay my way, take turns or support someone else, but also happy to go with the flow. I guess I don't do strict dating conventions. Life's too short.

As for opening doors - I do it for everyone. Not because I am a man, but because I am a civilised human being who is courteous and has manners.



When I am dating, I have no problem paying for dates.
I might even give you special treats.
:)


Well that's very kind of you.

I think too many people are thinking too hard about this. I don't mind paying, but my masculinity certainly isn't offended or threatened when someone wants to be generous or do something nice for me.

It's not the paying or the not paying, it's the reason behind the expectations that can be awkward and stifling. I'm not a big fan of social conventions.

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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/7/2016 2:35:43 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:



I used to bellyache about how women should do the asking, to make things equal .... I don't, now. It feels fucking awful to turn a woman down and I still have *no* idea how to do it well. (Not that it happens every day, mind you - far from it ... but I'll avoid getting into the sort of situation where it might arise like the plague, these days.)

IMO: a woman dominating a man in the sack - easy enough. A woman whacking a bloke up his jacksie with a strap-on - bit of a thing to get your head around, but still doable. I'd venture to suggest that physical acts aren't that important for the average male.

But matters to do with etiquette - much more of a struggle. A *woman* asking *a man* out - still way beyond any role-reversal challenge than any of the aforementioned, for me. Funny, really.


quote:

No comment, because my head might explode.


I sympathise. This knee jerk thing I have about that matter does not make sense - I know. Female friends tell me this frequently and I agree with them.


< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 8/7/2016 2:36:45 AM >


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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/7/2016 2:45:00 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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I agree on everything you said Lucy.

We aren't exactly flush here but what we have we share between us.
There's no such thing as 'my money' and 'your money'.
It goes into a single pot and we pay bills and see what's left.

I've had that same approach when I was dating.
I offer to pay because I think (as the person doing the asking), I should at least make the offer.
But I never expect anything in return.
As an example, we're off camping in 9 days and am currently chatting to a potential sub/slave. I have offered for her to come along for free just to break the ice.

I think there are waay too many people who give in order to receive.
I work on a simple premise: If I've got it, you can have it; just don't take the piss.


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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/9/2016 6:31:15 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

t
quote:

he gender wage gap is one example - it's a myth which has been debunked time and time again


Oh shut up, Awareness. You know that's not true. It's been *contested* time and time agtimeain. It has not been 'debunked' time and time again. How can you even say that and hope to get away with it? One need only google the phrase 'Is there a gender wage gap?' to find this out.
No, it's been comprehensively debunked time after time after time after time after time after time after time.

Quite simply:

* Men are far more likely to choose careers that are more dangerous (which, duh, pay more)
* Men are far more likely to work in higher-paying fields and occupations (by choice).
* Men are far more likely to take work in uncomfortable, isolated, and undesirable locations that pay more.
* Men work longer hours than women do.
* Men are more likely to take jobs that require work on weekends and evenings
* Even within the same career category, men are more likely to pursue high-stress and higher-paid areas of specialization.
* Women business owners make less than half of what male business owners make (so self-directed women don't do as well as men).

Despite all of these factors, unmarried women under 30 make 8% more than their male peers.

The gender wage gap is not just a myth it's an active piece of deception that is nothing more than baseless feminist propaganda. You're too stupid to read and think so you just believe what you're told - you're completely incapable of analysing information and drawing conclusions based on evidence. So shut the fuck up and go back to sucking on the feminist teat. Discussion is for adults, you pathetic child.

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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/9/2016 6:48:23 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
I'd begun to stop scanning over your verbiage - because the ratio of pomposity to thought had become too great - and then this popped up!
No. You'd just block me, but you can't because feminists are manifestly unable to tolerate freedom of thought. When a feminist sees someone thinking in a non-approved fashion, they believe it is their duty to attempt to crush that independent thought before it taints the narrative.

quote:


Gawd, A. Yes, you've invoked the 'One True Scotsman' line a few times - and I've rubbished it.
You've never rubbished it. You've actively run away from it every time because you're completely incapable of countering it.

quote:


This is because you warp it - I suspect, because you don't quite understand it.
You don't suspect anything of the sort. You're just too stupid to construct an argument so you're completely incapable of detecting fallacies.

quote:

I have said, time and again, that someone does *not* hold to the principle of equality between the genders, then he/she is not a feminist.
True Scotsman right there. People who identify as feminists are not TRUE FEMINISTS unless they "hold to the principle of equality between the genders". I've asked you to name an example of a feminist who meets your criterion and you dodge every time.

quote:

I have said this because it is the one common thread in the whole body of thought. This means that: yes, you may call someone, *even a woman*, a non-feminist if he/she does not hold to that principle.
So basically, what you're saying is that all those women who identify as feminists aren't TRUE FEMINISTS even if they self-identify as such, because ONLY TRUE FEMINISTS adhere to the principle of gender equality.

Christ, you're dim. I mean, you're genuinely, fucking thick. This line of argument is classic True Scotsman, which is ironic considering male feminists are the first to jump in line and try and mock "one-true-wayism" in male Doms.

quote:

Your second option is to redefine 'feminism' in a way that makes sense. This is an option that you never, ever, take. The best you've ever done is echo respectmen with his view - steeped in that illogic that you claim to shun - that 'feminism is what feminists do'. Neither you nor RM has ever answered the question, 'Right - so how do you recognise a feminist, in order to, next, judge what he/she does?'
So what you're saying is: "People who self-identify as feminists aren't TRUE FEMINISTS unless they meet this specific criterion. However you've no justification for the criterion - you've never demonstrated a single feminist individual or organisation which supposedly satisfies this criterion and yet you insist all feminists should be judged by it.

Why is that Peon? Cynical thinkers would be prone to believing this line of argument is a dodge designed to disclaim the negative actions of feminists by proclaiming them as "NOT TRUE FEMINISTS" when they become indefensible.

Of course, open-minded thinkers must consider the possibility that feminism has been fundamentally founded upon hypocrisy and deception, that it has never been about equality and that demonisation of men has been a fundamental aspect of its ideology.

You're making claims of what consitutes a feminist based upon zero evidence. You can point to no history of feminist social activism which demonstrates a belief in equality, you can point to no activities in the legislative sphere which demonstrates feminism's supposed concerns for men - you have ZERO evidence for this criterion which supposedly defines a feminists and yet you claim this should be used as a criterion for identifying TRUE FEMINISTS?

You're a liar and an idiot. You wonder why I have contempt for you? Because you're demonstrably incapable of thinking and you have zero ability to back up your claims. You parrot dogma and that's all you fucking do. If you're employed at a University, it's because they required a useful idiot, not an inquiring mind with the ability to teach students how to think.

quote:


Strewth, A. It honestly flabbergasts me how you can adopt *such* a confident tone, on the back of such a paucity of knowledge and balance. I've only been able to manage that on certain leisure drugs, in the past.
I'm confident you moron because my mind runs rings around yours - and it fucking shows.


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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/9/2016 6:52:11 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

t
quote:

he gender wage gap is one example - it's a myth which has been debunked time and time again


Oh shut up, Awareness. You know that's not true. It's been *contested* time and time agtimeain. It has not been 'debunked' time and time again. How can you even say that and hope to get away with it? One need only google the phrase 'Is there a gender wage gap?' to find this out.
No, it's been comprehensively debunked time after time after time after time after time after time after time.

Not according to other sources -
Wiki says: The European Commission defines the gender pay gap as the average difference between men's and women's aggregate hourly earnings. The wage gap is due to a variety of causes, such as differences in education choices, differences in preferred job and industry, differences in the types of positions held by men and women, differences in the type of jobs men typically go into as opposed to women (especially highly paid high risk jobs), differences in amount of work experience, difference in length of the work week, and breaks in employment. These factors resolve 60% to 75% of the pay gap, depending on the source. Various explanations for the remaining 25% to 40% have been suggested, including women's lower willingness and ability to negotiate salaries or else due to discrimination. According to the European Commission direct discrimination only explains a small part of gender wage differences.

In the United States, the average female's unadjusted annual salary has been cited as 78% of that of the average male. However, multiple studies from OECD, AAUW, and the US Department of Labor have found that pay rates between males and females varied by 5–6.6% or, females earning 94 cents to every dollar earned by their male counterparts, when wages were adjusted to different individual choices made by male and female workers in college major, occupation, working hours, and maternal/paternal leave. The remaining 6% of the gap has been speculated to originate from deficiency in salary negotiating skills and sexual discrimination.


Fawcett Society says: The current overall gap for full time workers is 13.9%

The AAUW says: The pay gap has barely budged in a decade. At the current rate, the gap won’t close for more than 100 years.
Also: Did you know that in 2014, women working full time in the United States typically were paid just 79 percent of what men were paid, a gap of 21 percent? The gap has narrowed since the 1970s (Figure 1), due largely to women’s progress in education and workforce participation and to men’s wages rising at a slower rate. But progress has stalled in recent years, and the pay gap does not appear likely to go away on its own.

The WSJ (Updated May 17, 2016) says: On average, American women earn less than their male peers. Highly educated women fare worst of all.

A Wall Street Journal examination of pay in 446 major occupations found that women in many elite jobs earn well below men, with professions such as doctors, compensation managers and personal financial advisers among those showing the widest earnings gaps.



Debunked??? I don't think so!!


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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/9/2016 7:15:32 AM   
Lucylastic


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Sheesh what a load of bullshit Awareness..


But I fixed something for you, just for you and lil nicky.

Misogynists are manifestly unable to tolerate freedom of thought. When a misogynist sees someone thinking in a non-misogynist fashion, they believe it is their duty to attempt to crush that freedom of thought and speech before it taints their narrative.

yanno just to use your **original* thought with a random change.

have a great day.

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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/9/2016 7:20:35 AM   
PeonForHer


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Funny, really. Before I came to this site and to BDSM in general, I had a vague idea that every male dom would be like you - a loud, swaggering arse of a man desperate to show that though he might look like a short, round glob of rancid suet, he has a testosterone-pumped bull's body and the laser-like brain of an Einstein.

Fortunately for me, not to say the world in general, only you are like you.

I don't know what it is with you, A. Sometimes I think it may be that you were one of those people who did badly at school, then as an adult did one of those IQ tests that called you a 'genius' and have been bitterly trying to demonstrate it ever since - and most especially to people who've had an education that's beyond yours. Or perhaps you've worked it out that it's essential for your dominance - or even just your masculinity (actually, I think the two are inseparable, in your mind) that you climb on top of everyone in your path. Everyone needs to be put in his or her place, beneath you. And there are times when I suspect that you might even have some kind of psychopathic disorder that drives you into a fuming, blubbering, chins-wobbling rage, every time you're challenged.

Whatever. You are bloated to a pathological extreme in both body and mind and you repulse me like nobody else.

You tire me out. Just fuck off now, there's a good lad.

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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/9/2016 7:52:22 AM   
Awareness


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Ad hominem, you pitiful excuse for a man. You're unable to argue, so behaving like a fucking girl is your only response.

I don't think you understand. I don't give a flying fuck what you think about me. Your incompetence is demonstrated on an ongoing basis by your complete and utter failure to counter any argument with which you're confronted.

Look, it's okay - you can ask for assistance with the bits you don't understand. I'm a patient teacher.

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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/9/2016 7:55:40 AM   
Awareness


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Lucy, if you had any evidence to counter my argument, you'd present it. Your failure to do so just highlights the utterly mad, completely misandrist nature of your relationship with masculinity. Your mental issues are not my problem. Seek therapy.

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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/9/2016 8:11:47 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Not according to other sources -
Wiki says: The European Commission defines the gender pay gap as the average difference between men's and women's aggregate hourly earnings. The wage gap is due to a variety of causes, such as differences in education choices, differences in preferred job and industry, differences in the types of positions held by men and women, differences in the type of jobs men typically go into as opposed to women (especially highly paid high risk jobs), differences in amount of work experience, difference in length of the work week, and breaks in employment. These factors resolve 60% to 75% of the pay gap, depending on the source. Various explanations for the remaining 25% to 40% have been suggested, including women's lower willingness and ability to negotiate salaries or else due to discrimination. According to the European Commission direct discrimination only explains a small part of gender wage differences.
Dude, that supports MY argument, not yours. Let's repeat that phrase: "According to the European Commission direct discrimination only explains a small part of gender wage differences."

Which is exactly the point. Men and women make different choices and value different things. The idea that women do the same work as men and are paid 78 cents in the dollar for the privilege is a fucking myth.

Really, if you're going to cite a reference, at least make sure it supports your argument.

quote:


In the United States, the average female's unadjusted annual salary has been cited as 78% of that of the average male. However, multiple studies from OECD, AAUW, and the US Department of Labor have found that pay rates between males and females varied by 5–6.6% or, females earning 94 cents to every dollar earned by their male counterparts, when wages were adjusted to different individual choices made by male and female workers in college major, occupation, working hours, and maternal/paternal leave. The remaining 6% of the gap has been speculated to originate from deficiency in salary negotiating skills and sexual discrimination.
Again, this supports MY argument. Differences vanish when you match like for like and the remainder is because women don't take as many risks as men and therefore are generally less willing to walk and thus less effective negotiators.

quote:


Fawcett Society says: The current overall gap for full time workers is 13.9%

The AAUW says: The pay gap has barely budged in a decade. At the current rate, the gap won’t close for more than 100 years.
First it was 48 years, then 67 and now 100? Yeah, there's not even a consensus on this, just a bunch of bullshit anti-evidence that is speculation and propaganda.

quote:


Also: Did you know that in 2014, women working full time in the United States typically were paid just 79 percent of what men were paid, a gap of 21 percent?
No. They were not. That is a lie.

quote:

The gap has narrowed since the 1970s (Figure 1), due largely to women’s progress in education and workforce participation and to men’s wages rising at a slower rate. But progress has stalled in recent years, and the pay gap does not appear likely to go away on its own.
Because women don't work as hard as men, don't work risky jobs, don't negotiate as well and prefer flexible hours and better conditions over increased financial compensation.

quote:


The WSJ (Updated May 17, 2016) says: On average, American women earn less than their male peers. Highly educated women fare worst of all.
Bullshit. Unmarried college educated women under 30 earn 8% more than their male peers.

quote:


A Wall Street Journal examination of pay in 446 major occupations found that women in many elite jobs earn well below men, with professions such as doctors, compensation managers and personal financial advisers among those showing the widest earnings gaps.
Again, women make different life choices and work fewer hours.

quote:


Debunked??? I don't think so!!
Comprehensively debunked. And as your own post shows, many of the myth-propagators don't know the difference between their side of the argument and that of their opponents.




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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/9/2016 8:18:03 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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Actually, NONE of it supports your argument at all.

After the initial blurb (which you like to reference to), every single one of them state that there IS a gender wage gap for identical and similar jobs.
The WSJ goes on to say that those in elite jobs have an even BIGGER wage gap than other professions.

Try reading everything in the links.


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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/9/2016 8:43:17 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

Lucy, if you had any evidence to counter my argument, you'd present it. Your failure to do so just highlights the utterly mad, completely misandrist nature of your relationship with masculinity. Your mental issues are not my problem. Seek therapy.

You dont have an argument.
You have bullshit waffles with shit sauce.

Oh and my post was simply shoving your comment back at you to show you how pathetic you really are, is my way of having enormous fun at your ego problem.

You give me all the ammo, its all your thoughts in black and white
With a twist.




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RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/9/2016 8:49:24 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Actually, NONE of it supports your argument at all.

After the initial blurb (which you like to reference to), every single one of them state that there IS a gender wage gap for identical and similar jobs.
The WSJ goes on to say that those in elite jobs have an even BIGGER wage gap than other professions.

Try reading everything in the links.

No, the first two basically say, "Women don't earn as much as men and here's why."

Like I said, they support my argument, not yours.

If women want to close the wage gap, they'll need to work a bit harder and start doing the dirty, dangerous jobs they currently leave to men.

Good grief, this shit ain't hard.


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Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/9/2016 8:50:49 AM   
Awareness


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*shrug* What do I care? You're only a woman - and not much of one - anyway.

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Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Feminists want equality, except when paying for dates - 8/9/2016 8:57:25 AM   
Lucylastic


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Dont Hate Love

(in reply to Awareness)
Profile   Post #: 180
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