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RE: Another Socialized Medicine/Health Success - 8/27/2016 10:59:27 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I live under US Govt run socialized medicine. I can't get the devices I need for daily life. I have to pay for them out of pocket. Hospital Bed with accessories to the shower bench. Walker, wheelchair lift and so on. I have lived this way since I was 17. I get treatments that they determine are authorized. I was stuck with a quarter million dollar bill because they retroactively disapproved payment. Then said oh, we made a mistake but to bad for you, you still gotta pay. I have been trying since 1987 to get just one single appointment and am still waiting even tho I have applied numerous times over the years. Tell me how good socialized medicine is. And I get to pay taxes for my medical devices to boot. There is no upside as far as I am concerned.

And here is the crux Ken.... what you have is NOT socialized medicine.
It is medical costs approved by private insurance companies - very big difference!
Socialized medicine is paid for from the public purse, not private companies that are only interested in profits.
You might see it as "socialized medicine" but it isn't anything like it.

You spout that you "...get treatments that they determine are authorized".
Social medicine (generally) doesn't make any such distinctions.

You also state "I was stuck with a quarter million dollar bill because they retroactively disapproved payment".
Again, socialized medicine do not bill people for treatment - it comes out of the public purse.

And again, you say "Hospital Bed with accessories to the shower bench. Walker, wheelchair lift and so on".
Under socialized healthcare it is provided free of charge from the public purse.
The same as the costs for the doctors, nurses, medication, equipment etc - all from the public purse.


You bang on about your 'socialized medicine' but you aren't getting "socialized medicine".
What you are getting is approved costings from a privately funded scheme.
That's not socialized healthcare - not even close.

When you actually experience proper socialized healthcare, you'll see the difference.
The main thing being - you don't get a bill and the costs aren't calculated for the patient.
And interestingly, our social healthcare costs regarding taxes to pay for it are much lower than that of the US.
Someobody can't count over there.



He has military health "care" it has nothing to do with insurance company's.

And yet everything in the US is supplied by, and billed by, those private healthcare insurance companies right down to the last red cent - even to the military.
Social healthcare isn't like that.


Believe what you want, that doesn't mean you are right.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Another Socialized Medicine/Health Success - 8/27/2016 11:15:51 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Believe what you want, that doesn't mean you are right.

Our friend in NC is a Vietnam vet.
He is also on military healthcare (complications from Agent Orange and such) so we know what he gets from them and what he can't have because the private insurance companies won't approve all the meds he needs - even though it is provided by, and paid for, through the military.

I'll believe what I'm told from the horses mouth who is in this same situation.
Just as Ken said, he can only have what is approved by those same greedy money-grabbing profiteering insurance companies.


It is nothing like socialized medicine. Not even close.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


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RE: Another Socialized Medicine/Health Success - 8/27/2016 12:52:47 PM   
NorthernGent1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

no doubt we have our problems to, but I posted this for sake of continued discussion about the merits of socialized medicine, its impact upon people, and how much better their system is than ours. Therefore we must dismantle our system completly, federalize all medicine inclduing doctors, nurses, etc immediately. The the non-nmedical personnel in the government can decide (does it matter whose) can make all the decisions including prices, co-pays, etc. And it puts government in firm control of what I have heard is an estimated 10% of our economy.



My instinct is that it would be a huge mistake for Americans to become European in their practice.

The world needs a spread of ideas - that is healthy.

I have had experience in an American hospital and what a fucking joke. It was a very good example of profiteers milking the system for all it is worth.

But, the world needs countries to remain true to their idea - their instinct. Just as England is different to Europe in many ways, then the United States should retain its own way of doing things.

The Yanks won't get everything right, nor will anyone else, but they've done pretty well - and imagine if everyone became European! Christ.

I think it would be sad a day if the day ever comes when Americans think it is better in Europe.

As someone with European countries on our doorstep, I think Americans generally over-estimate them.

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Another Socialized Medicine/Health Success - 8/27/2016 1:05:34 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Would their insurance pay for a 'double occupancy' when there was only a single occupant? I don't know, but I'd be willing to bet it's more likely in a socialized system than in the US.

Not so sure I agree with you, DS. I had an aunt and uncle that spent the better part of 10 years living together in a very nice retirement/long-term care facility that they picked for themselves. She was a housewife that had suffered from crippling RA most of her adult life. He was a former high school math and physics teacher that eventually developed Alzheimer's. I can't say I know exactly how it was all paid for but I do know they weren't any more wealthy than the average middle-class family of their time. I imagine it was paid by a combination of retirement savings and insurance. Would they have been able to maintain that level of choice and care for that long with a socialized system? Maybe so, maybe not.


Depending on when this all took place, it could be an apples-to-oranges comparison. Costs are higher now, and people tend to have less in savings, let alone an actual retirement plan. In the situation given in the OP's article, the wife got a room, but her husband wasn't able to go with her at that time. He was in the hospital for cancer (I think that's what it was). The only way they'd have been able to be together is if she'd been given a hospital bed, which I can't see happening, regardless of the system.

I should have been more clear in my statement/question. Since he wasn't able to be with her, would the insurance still have paid for a 'double occupancy' when there was only one occupant, and they were paying for his occupancy somewhere else already? With your aunt/uncle, a double occupancy was being paid (regardless of how) for two people occupying the same place.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to RottenJohnny)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Another Socialized Medicine/Health Success - 8/27/2016 2:01:18 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

You sound like a nigger bragging about getting a bigger welfare check.


No...just a service connected 100% disabled, veteran.


Exactly. Now you are "entitled". And of course better than the rest of us because you fought for the oil companies because either A. They offered you the world or B. You had no future other than that.


There have been jarheads in my family since 1834...We are a family of professional warriors. There was a "modest" amount of peer pressure that informed my decission to buy a ticket for the body bag lotto.

Unless you are insane and like killing people.

You say the sweetest things termmy.


It really is OK as long as you admit it. When we go to that biker bar I am bringing my gun either way. Because I am sure if not your fucking mouth will get us killed.

Knowing that you will be my protector makes me feel all warm and fuzzy


< Message edited by thompsonx -- 8/27/2016 2:02:31 PM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Another Socialized Medicine/Health Success - 8/27/2016 2:28:26 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

One of the myths of American life--particularly vis-a-vis "socialized medicine"--is that medical decisions here are made solely on the basis of patient needs.

Some years back, two friends--both women of roughly the same age--needed identical knee surgery. One had in it a hospital, where nurses could administer IV meds to deal with brutal post-op pain. And PTs could make sure her first literal steps toward recovery were taken safely.

The other was seen as an out-patient, sent home to cope as best she could with oral medications and the help of kind friends. Her PT was also out-patient, which posed no small logistical challenge to a patient whose injury precluded driving.

The reason for such starkly different treatment? You guessed it: insurance.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Another Socialized Medicine/Health Success - 8/27/2016 3:49:14 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Believe what you want, that doesn't mean you are right.

Our friend in NC is a Vietnam vet.
He is also on military healthcare (complications from Agent Orange and such) so we know what he gets from them and what he can't have because the private insurance companies won't approve all the meds he needs - even though it is provided by, and paid for, through the military.

I'll believe what I'm told from the horses mouth who is in this same situation.
Just as Ken said, he can only have what is approved by those same greedy money-grabbing profiteering insurance companies.


It is nothing like socialized medicine. Not even close.


Is he the same person who told you that you can't drive over 40 anywhere in the US?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Another Socialized Medicine/Health Success - 8/27/2016 3:59:15 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
Would they have been able to maintain that level of choice and care for that long with a socialized system? Maybe so, maybe not.


My OH's mother has been in a care home for a little over 8 years now.
That is all paid for under our socialized healthcare system.
It has provided for 24/7 round-the-clock care for her during this time.
Over the last 6 years or so, she became doubley incontinent and suffers from neurovascular dementia.
Essentially, she is nothing more than a living vegetable; her mind has gone but her body has kept going remarkably well.
Nobody in the family has had to pay a single red cent for her care and she had no health insurance (it isn't necessary here for healthcare).

We have heard this week that the staff at the care home are now moving into what they call "end of life care plan" so we are expecting a death sometime in the near future.
It hasn't cost anyone a dime for all this care and it wouldn't have mattered if she lived for another 20 years - they would still care for her and all paid for by our socialized healthcare system.

So I can vouch that a decent socialized healthcare system works.
Like anything else, it's still not perfect and it has its faults.
But compared to the US, it's solid gold for those who are not zillionaires that are able to pay for it all.

Yes, I agree with NG that different systems need to be in place around the world with a spread of ideas so we can all learn from each other.
And his comments about his experience of a US hospital was exactly like my own experience over there - complete crap with everyone milking the system to death.
When there is such a system that is clearly failing the vast majority of its citizens, I think it's time for a complete change and try something else.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to RottenJohnny)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Another Socialized Medicine/Health Success - 8/27/2016 4:00:28 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		No bama, it isn't.

And incidentally, I said they hadn't driven over 40mph, not that you weren't allowed to.
If you are going to criticise, at least get the fucking facts straight!!


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 8/27/2016 4:04:01 PM >

_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Another Socialized Medicine/Health Success - 8/27/2016 4:26:09 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

No bama, it isn't.

And incidentally, I said they hadn't driven over 40mph, not that you weren't allowed to.
If you are going to criticise, at least get the fucking facts straight!!


I did.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Another Socialized Medicine/Health Success - 8/27/2016 4:40:27 PM   
KenDckey


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Joined: 5/31/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I live under US Govt run socialized medicine. I can't get the devices I need for daily life. I have to pay for them out of pocket. Hospital Bed with accessories to the shower bench. Walker, wheelchair lift and so on. I have lived this way since I was 17. I get treatments that they determine are authorized. I was stuck with a quarter million dollar bill because they retroactively disapproved payment. Then said oh, we made a mistake but to bad for you, you still gotta pay. I have been trying since 1987 to get just one single appointment and am still waiting even tho I have applied numerous times over the years. Tell me how good socialized medicine is. And I get to pay taxes for my medical devices to boot. There is no upside as far as I am concerned.

Tell me what socialized medicine you have that you are waiting on an appointment since 1987.

I have requested multiple appointments with the VA. I broke my insulin on my way to Phoenix from out here in cooler country up in the high desert and Luke AFB refused to see me. I didn't live close enough to suit them for care. I got hurt in Mississippi and went to Keesler AFB for care because it was like 10 miles away (the closest civ hospital was farther). They refused to see me because I lived in Arizona. I have been to Nellis AFB when visiting Vegas (slightly over 100 miles from where I live) and they refused to see me because I live in Arizona (Luke is 150 miles away and is the closest military installation in AZ).

Medicare even harasses me over my wheelchair because I have to prove every 6 months that I need it. That includes a 100 mile round trip to a doc to get the paperwork updated.

Just some examples.

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: Another Socialized Medicine/Health Success - 8/27/2016 10:19:06 PM   
Marini


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Joined: 2/14/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I live under US Govt run socialized medicine. I can't get the devices I need for daily life. I have to pay for them out of pocket. Hospital Bed with accessories to the shower bench. Walker, wheelchair lift and so on. I have lived this way since I was 17. I get treatments that they determine are authorized. I was stuck with a quarter million dollar bill because they retroactively disapproved payment. Then said oh, we made a mistake but to bad for you, you still gotta pay. I have been trying since 1987 to get just one single appointment and am still waiting even tho I have applied numerous times over the years. Tell me how good socialized medicine is. And I get to pay taxes for my medical devices to boot. There is no upside as far as I am concerned.

Tell me what socialized medicine you have that you are waiting on an appointment since 1987.

I have requested multiple appointments with the VA. I broke my insulin on my way to Phoenix from out here in cooler country up in the high desert and Luke AFB refused to see me. I didn't live close enough to suit them for care. I got hurt in Mississippi and went to Keesler AFB for care because it was like 10 miles away (the closest civ hospital was farther). They refused to see me because I lived in Arizona. I have been to Nellis AFB when visiting Vegas (slightly over 100 miles from where I live) and they refused to see me because I live in Arizona (Luke is 150 miles away and is the closest military installation in AZ).

Medicare even harasses me over my wheelchair because I have to prove every 6 months that I need it. That includes a 100 mile round trip to a doc to get the paperwork updated.

Just some examples.


Don't expect hope or change from Hill, with big pharm among her donors.
Sad sad sad
Sorry you have had to go through this.


_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Another Socialized Medicine/Health Success - 8/27/2016 10:47:34 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I live under US Govt run socialized medicine. I can't get the devices I need for daily life. I have to pay for them out of pocket. Hospital Bed with accessories to the shower bench. Walker, wheelchair lift and so on. I have lived this way since I was 17. I get treatments that they determine are authorized. I was stuck with a quarter million dollar bill because they retroactively disapproved payment. Then said oh, we made a mistake but to bad for you, you still gotta pay. I have been trying since 1987 to get just one single appointment and am still waiting even tho I have applied numerous times over the years. Tell me how good socialized medicine is. And I get to pay taxes for my medical devices to boot. There is no upside as far as I am concerned.

Tell me what socialized medicine you have that you are waiting on an appointment since 1987.

I have requested multiple appointments with the VA. I broke my insulin on my way to Phoenix from out here in cooler country up in the high desert and Luke AFB refused to see me. I didn't live close enough to suit them for care. I got hurt in Mississippi and went to Keesler AFB for care because it was like 10 miles away (the closest civ hospital was farther). They refused to see me because I lived in Arizona. I have been to Nellis AFB when visiting Vegas (slightly over 100 miles from where I live) and they refused to see me because I live in Arizona (Luke is 150 miles away and is the closest military installation in AZ).

Medicare even harasses me over my wheelchair because I have to prove every 6 months that I need it. That includes a 100 mile round trip to a doc to get the paperwork updated.

Just some examples.


Don't expect hope or change from Hill, with big pharm among her donors.
Sad sad sad
Sorry you have had to go through this.


And her distaste for the military.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Another Socialized Medicine/Health Success - 8/27/2016 10:48:15 PM   
KenDckey


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Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		Marini. Thanks but it goes with the job. We serve at the will of the people and this is what the people, thru their elected representatives, have dictated. And yet, I believe that the vast majority of us would stand up and offer up the full measure for our country when called.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Another Socialized Medicine/Health Success - 8/27/2016 11:57:35 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Marini. Thanks but it goes with the job. We serve at the will of the people


How does that work? You enlisted for a set period of time. Which people are you serving at the will of?


and this is what the people, thru their elected representatives, have dictated.


You got bamboozeed because you are ignorant. If you are entitled to care at one v.a. facility you are entitled to care at all v.a. facilities.
I know one who is unhappy with the long beach facility, which is about 2 miles from his home, and drives over a 100 miles round trip to use the loma linda facility

And yet, I believe that the vast majority of us would stand up and offer up the full measure for our country when called.


That is not the issue unless you feel the best interest of the oil companies and bankers is "our country"

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Another Socialized Medicine/Health Success - 8/28/2016 12:41:27 AM   
KenDckey


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Status: offline 		Thompsonx

My period of time was 20+ years. And you should know that we serve at the will of the people of this country, or whatever country someone might be a soldier.

BTW I have tried multiple VA's in multiple states. Same with military installations. And am continuously turned away without an appointment.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Another Socialized Medicine/Health Success - 8/28/2016 5:16:55 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: BamaD


And her distaste for the military.


You don't seem to notice when you talk out of both sides of your mouth at the same time do you?
You claim bill's wife is going to start another war, how does she does that without the military you claim she hates?
Jesus you are phoquing stupid.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Another Socialized Medicine/Health Success - 8/28/2016 5:23:59 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Thompsonx

My period of time was 20+ years.

What is your point?

And you should know that we serve at the will of the people of this country, or whatever country someone might be a soldier.

You were an enlisted person. That means you serve for the time of your enlistment. Commissioned officers on the other hand serve at the will of the president. No one in the military serves at the will of the people.

BTW I have tried multiple VA's in multiple states. Same with military installations. And am continuously turned away without an appointment.

I live in california. I can go to any v.a. facility, without an appointment, and be seen within 30 minutes. Now if you do not believe me how about you hobo your ass over too loma linda v.a. facility monday morning at 08:00 and meet me in the lobby and I will show you how to do it. Don't forget to ring your v.a. id. card.


(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Another Socialized Medicine/Health Success - 8/28/2016 5:40:12 AM   
Termyn8or


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Thompsonx

My period of time was 20+ years. And you should know that we serve at the will of the people of this country, or whatever country someone might be a soldier.

BTW I have tried multiple VA's in multiple states. Same with military installations. And am continuously turned away without an appointment.


YOU GOT FUCKED.

I have long said that I would give up all the rest of my years of life to be born about 11 years earlier. However that would have put me in draft age for Nam. If I was "invited" I would be a Canadian now.

I have no problem defending this country, but they did not attack us. Neither did Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Ukraine or all those countries in South America that hate us so much we can't even get sugar for our soft drinks. SERIOUSLY, the reason we got Coca Cola with HFCS and Mexicans get it with real sugar is because South Americans "never forget". Look it up.

T^T

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Another Socialized Medicine/Health Success - 8/28/2016 7:06:10 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
I have no problem defending this country, but they did not attack us. Neither did Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Ukraine or all those countries in South America that hate us so much we can't even get sugar for our soft drinks. SERIOUSLY, the reason we got Coca Cola with HFCS and Mexicans get it with real sugar is because South Americans "never forget". Look it up.
T^T


The price supports for the US Sugar Industry and import tariffs on 'foreign' sugar keep our sugar prices high, leading to HFCS being a cheaper alternative. That's why we have HFCS in the majority of our pop/soda/food. It's US government economic policy, not previous military actions, that are at play in the case of sugar.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 60
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