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95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 10:28:21 AM   
vincentML


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crimes his unit committed at Auschwitz. Is this too little too late for the Germans? What do you suppose motivates them at this distant date? Admittedly, we do not have the entire Brief to review but it seems Hubert Zafke is on trial for what his unit did. Under a fairly recent German law, I think, guilt is alleged just for being a cog in the wheel. Does it matter that he was an SS medic?

What do you think?

source

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 10:36:39 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


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Hmm, well it depends really. If he was in command then yes he is responsible for the actions of those under him. If he wasn't in command but did the things then yes, but if he wasn't in command and others did the things then no.

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 10:57:19 AM   
vincentML


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According to the indictment Zafke is accused of knowing that he worked in an extermination camp and that he was 'supportive of the running of this extermination camp.'

They added; 'Given his awareness, the accused lent support to the organisation of the camp and was thereby both involved in and advanced the extermination with these cruel and insidious killings of at least 3,681 people.'

source


Is his "awareness" a basis for conviction?

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 11:24:00 AM   
WhoreMods


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I think the word might be "complicity" rather than "awareness" in this case.

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 11:35:04 AM   
Termyn8or


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Yeah well I bet the Palestinians never forget.

And all this reparations shit because they suffered so much living in people's attics n shit but nothing for the people who risked to save them.

Fukum. Why do you think people say fukum. And now they are going around trying to get BDS outlawed.

What's more, US soldiers in Iraq knew about depleted uranium projectiles, and that is actually defined as a war crime, do they all need to go to Hague as well ?

Fukum.

You got QME and $3 billion a year, commit your fucking genocide against the Palestinians (who are mostly more Semitic than you) and get it over with. And if nobody likes you don't come crying to me.

T^T

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 1:43:21 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

I think the word might be "complicity" rather than "awareness" in this case.

According to the Daily Mail (I know, I know) it is 'awareness.'

In 1969 the following happened in Vietnam:

Calley was charged on September 5, 1969, with six specifications of premeditated murder for the deaths of 109 South Vietnamese civilians near the village of Son My, at a hamlet called My Lai, simply referred to as "My Lai" in the U.S. press. As many as 500 villagers—mostly women, children, infants, and the elderly—had been systematically killed by American soldiers during a bloody rampage on March 16, 1968. Upon conviction, Calley could have faced the death penalty. On November 12, 1969, investigative reporters Seymour Hersh[9] and Wayne Greenhaw[10] broke the story and revealed that Calley had been charged with murdering 109 Vietnamese.[11]

Calley's trial started on November 17, 1970. It was the military prosecution's contention that Calley, in defiance of the rules of engagement, ordered his men to deliberately murder unarmed Vietnamese civilians despite the fact that his men were not under enemy fire at all. Testimony revealed that Calley had ordered the men of 1st Platoon, Company C, 1st Battalion, 20th Infantry of the 23rd Infantry Division to kill everyone in the village. In presenting the case, the two military prosecutors, Aubrey Daniel and John Partin, were hamstrung by the reluctance of many soldiers to testify against Calley. Some refused to answer questions point-blank on the witness stand by citing the Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.


Calley claimed he was following orders. His immediate superior denied any such orders. Calley was found guilty and received a life sentence.

The American people were outraged at the sentence.

In a telephone survey of the American public, 79 percent disagreed with the verdict, 81 percent believed that the life sentence Calley had received was too stern, and 69 percent believed Calley had been made a scapegoat.[14]

Many others were outraged not at Calley's guilty verdict, but that he was the only one within the chain of command who was convicted. At the Winter Soldier Investigation in Detroit organized by Vietnam Veterans Against the War January 31–February 2, 1971, veterans expressed their outrage, including 1st Lt. William Crandell of the 199th Light Infantry Brigade, Americal Division:[15]

We intend to tell who it was that gave us those orders; that created that policy; that set that standard of war bordering on full and final genocide. We intend to demonstrate that My Lai was no unusual occurrence, other than, perhaps, the number of victims killed all in one place, all at one time, all by one platoon of us. We intend to show that the policies of Americal Division, which inevitably resulted in My Lai, were the policies of other Army and Marine divisions as well. We intend to show that war crimes in Vietnam did not start in March 1968, or in the village of Son My or with one Lieutenant William Calley. We intend to indict those really responsible for My Lai, for Vietnam, for attempted genocide.


Calley was given clemency and released by President Nixon.

Like Lt. Calley, Hubert Zafke was doing his duty. What makes Zafke's trial even more egregious to me is his age, his apparent lack of actual participation, and my suspicion that his trial is political in some fashion. Maybe the Germans are acting still out of a sense of national guilt and scapegoating him?

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 2:12:59 PM   
WhoreMods


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Maybe. Still, he's spent the last seventy roaming free, rather than facing any consequences of his actions, so it's hard to feel much sympathy for him if I'm honest.

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 3:12:03 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

Hubert Zafke was doing his duty.

That defence was ruled invalid

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 3:17:28 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

Maybe. Still, he's spent the last seventy roaming free, rather than facing any consequences of his actions, so it's hard to feel much sympathy for him if I'm honest.

Seventy years, when the incident ocurred 40-45 years ago.
It happened in Veitnam, not WWII

< Message edited by BamaD -- 9/12/2016 3:19:08 PM >


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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 3:44:50 PM   
Dvr22999874


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I have to agree with Dizzy. That defence was ruled invalid at Nuremberg 70 years ago and I believe that law still stands. I also believe that around that time, anybody who was in the S.S. was deemed to be a war criminal, be they just a driver, cook or medic and no matter what rank they held.

As for what was done to the Jews, Gypsies, Russians, homosexuals, etc.,etc.,etc.,I have a book here I would recommend to anybody interested ( not those blind fools who scream that the holocaust never happened), called 'Could It Happen Again' . It is quite thought provoking if one has the thought processes to read without prejudice, ( no names, no pack drill) and if anybody is genuinely interested, I will be happy to send it to them on my dime. Just shoot me an e-mail.

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 4:12:05 PM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

Maybe. Still, he's spent the last seventy roaming free, rather than facing any consequences of his actions, so it's hard to feel much sympathy for him if I'm honest.

Seventy years, when the incident ocurred 40-45 years ago.
It happened in Veitnam, not WWII

Read the OP instead of jerking your knee at the mention of Calley, eh?

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 4:15:55 PM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

I have to agree with Dizzy. That defence was ruled invalid at Nuremberg 70 years ago and I believe that law still stands. I also believe that around that time, anybody who was in the S.S. was deemed to be a war criminal, be they just a driver, cook or medic and no matter what rank they held.

As for what was done to the Jews, Gypsies, Russians, homosexuals, etc.,etc.,etc.,I have a book here I would recommend to anybody interested ( not those blind fools who scream that the holocaust never happened), called 'Could It Happen Again' . It is quite thought provoking if one has the thought processes to read without prejudice, ( no names, no pack drill) and if anybody is genuinely interested, I will be happy to send it to them on my dime. Just shoot me an e-mail.

Well, the question of complicity becomes a bit more extensive than mere guilt through association by membership of the SS when you consider that the old boy was a medic at a death camp. Was he dealing purely with the enlisted personal there, or did he have a hand in screening the inmates? The prosecution are claiming that he had in working the gas chambers, which is a bit beyond merely being aware that bad stuff is going on somewhere.

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 4:22:17 PM   
Baldrick


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I think... Have a trial... Find him guilty and have him serve the rest of his life under house arrest.... The stress of all this on the old guy will probably shorten what is left of his remaining life.... It happened.. He was there... I think as a SS man, to not carry out the duties ordered of him, he would have been shot and burned with the rest... The people get what they want, and the little old man can live the rest of his life with what I bet is a very tortured soul

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 5:20:24 PM   
Termyn8or


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Here, because just about all Germans paid taxes, they should all be held accountable. And since most of us paid taxes to the US government which is also guilty of war crimes we should be held accountable. The IDF commits war crimes all the time and they get $3 billion from the US. China killed those poor kids at Tianemen but gets interest payments from the US. Yemen gets aid from the US and allows forty year old males to buy eight year old girls from he sire and incubator (I won't call them Parents) and fuck her like a piece of meat and injure her so badly she dies, and they have soldiers in Aghanistan who are told to just shut up about the screams fro the little boys the animals are raping there

With this kind of morality, Nazis deserve reparations !

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 6:05:00 PM   
Baldrick


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I had read that he also acted as a guard.... So in that case the lines are blurred

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 6:23:56 PM   
Dvr22999874


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The guards were all considered to be guilty and many were shot out of hand by liberating troops. Many tried to put on prison clothes and hide in among the inmates but they were soon found or given up.

The excuse of being under orders didn't wash either because every german soldier ( S.S. included) had the right to request a transfer to a combat unit and his commanding officer was obliged to fulfil that request


< Message edited by Dvr22999874 -- 9/12/2016 6:24:56 PM >

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 8:03:29 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

The excuse of being under orders didn't wash either because every german soldier ( S.S. included) had the right to request a transfer to a combat unit and his commanding officer was obliged to fulfil that request
Can you give me a citation for that statement? seems very dubious to me.

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 8:11:56 PM   
Dvr22999874


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No, I can't Vincent. It's something I read many years ago and had confirmed by some ex-Wehrmacht types that I new in Germany when I worked there. you would have to check it out with Wehrmacht regulations of WW2 if you really want it.
The main trouble with requesting a combat posting of course, was that you may end up neck deep in Russian snow.

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 8:13:00 PM   
Dvr22999874


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And basically, I really don't give a fiddlers bitch if what I say is believed or not. I am not going to get bent out of shape about it.

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RE: 95 Year old German medic on trial for - 9/12/2016 8:42:26 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

Maybe. Still, he's spent the last seventy roaming free, rather than facing any consequences of his actions, so it's hard to feel much sympathy for him if I'm honest.

It seems to me that "roaming free" and "consequences for his actions" are presumptive characterizations by you on the guilt or innocence of a man before his trial has actually begun.

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